A remake of Frogger in 4k.

[+Karl G]

A most impressive feat! You pack a lot into that 4K, and the lack of flicker (so far at least) is a nice bonus.

 

I'm wondering how committed you are to keeping it as close to the arcade version as possible? I have an idea that I think would work well with the kernel you are using, but isn't strictly true to the original.

 

Specifically, I noticed the groups of two turtles have one sprite turtle followed by 3 lines presumably to represent the second turtle. I was wondering if you could instead use the lines to represent a partially submerged turtle instead? That way, you could have the group of two taking turns which one is submerged, and that way the lines would make more sense, and you still wouldn't need more than one sprite in the pair of turtles at a time.

[Cisano]

That's really well done and the final version, surely, will be great! Bravo. 

[christo930]

On 4/1/2024 at 1:54 PM, splendidnut said:

A remake of Frogger, in 4k, without flicker (currently).

 

It has always been on my want-list to have a nice cartridge version of Frogger; a version that doesn't require the Supercharger, nor any other extended hardware.  I always felt that it could be done, because Frogger is a simple game that seems to align nicely with the capabilities of the 2600 hardware.

 

So, I've finally done it, I've got most of Frogger implemented and working pretty well.  It does contain a bit of level progression (it's subtle, so it might be hard to notice).  Currently, it's missing the Lady Frog, the Fly, the Crocodiles, and the Snake... and more objects in the river, and maybe some more variety (the kernels are relatively flexible).  Some of those things will definitely require adding flicker to the mix.  I have ~300 bytes left, so I might / should be able to squeeze all those things in.

 

Overall, this was a fun project that took about 4 weeks.  Most of the project is written in C.  Only the score kernel, the frogs-at-home kernel, and the repositioning routines are written in ASM.  I'll probably convert the other kernels over to ASM so that I can utilize early-HMOVEs to hide those black bars on the far left.  I figured this was a good point to share a ROM with everyone.

 

Enjoy.

 

Frogger_20240401_NTSC.bin 4 kB · 150 downloads

Will it do the music correctly?  Every single version of Frogger released BITD, except the Supercharger version screwed on the music, even on very capable systems.  Frogger without the music isn't frogger.

 

While it certainly looks better than the PB version, after seeing it on ZPH,  I think it still needs quite a bit of work (it is an early preview, after all).  I don't know if it possible to surpass the supercharger version, especially in 4k with no extra RAM.  But I hope it is.

On 4/1/2024 at 2:05 PM, cjherr said:

That's looking (and sounding) very good!

 

On 4/4/2024 at 5:56 PM, MarcoJ said:

Nice! Even music too.

 

I don't hear this music on ZPH.  Just one quick tune that plays over and over with no triggers.  The arcade version has a different tune after each frog goes home.  The music is one of the best parts of frogger, especially for such an early game.

 

 

I don't want to come across as negative or unappreciative of all the hard work that goes into it.  I just have very high hopes for the game.  It will be hard to beat the supercharger version on the 2600.

 

 

[christo930]

On 4/4/2024 at 9:57 PM, Zoyx said:

I appreciate the effort and I am impressed with your coding chops. But we don't need another Frogger. It is possible to make a cartridge out of the SuperCharger version if that is the goal.

I disagree completely.  What we need though is a better version, not a lesser version limited to 4k (assuming a better version cannot be done with 4k).  Supercharger Frogger is such an exceptionally good game for the 2600. Frogger has long been one of my favorite games, even though I've never been especially good at it.   I wish I had it back in the 80s with my supercharger (I bought it on closeout in like 1985).  I didn't get it until the Stella Gets a New Brain CD which  I think may have come with the Cuttle Cart. It's been so long I don't remember for the life of me.

[doug0909]

Great work, though I also like the supercharger version and will stick with it unless something better comes out.

 

What I'd really like is a competitive two player frogger game, something, to my knowledge, only seen on Atari 8 bit (a prototype I think) and NES (a homebrew) to this day... it could be a lot of fun, competing for points or, simply, competing to finish the screen more times than the competition...

Edited April 6 by doug0909

[Living Room Arcade]

5 hours ago, christo930 said:

... What we need though is a better version, not a lesser version limited to 4k (assuming a better version cannot be done with 4k).  ...

For some programmers, isn't the point of making a 4k Atari 2600 game now in 2024 to kind of say, "Hey, this is what we could have had when we were kids!  Wouldn't that've been GREAT!"  Like Dennis Debro's 4k Pac-Man.  Imagine getting that in 1982 instead of the one we all got. (With respect to Tod Frye.)  

 

Also, for some programmers, isn't the other side of it that it's like a programming challenge?  Doesn't the programmer say to himself or herself, "If I were limited to only 4k, could I do any better than THEY did?"  And then give it a try!  Why did Ed Fries limit himself to 4k to make his fantastic Atari 2600 versions of HALO and Rally-X?  For the challenge, I think.  

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if @splendidnut's intention was to make a new Frogger with all the bells and whistles, then he would not have announced that it's going to be 4k.  I think when the man said he's making a 4k Frogger, we all understand what that means.  A) He's challenging himself to do it in only 4k.  B) If all goes well, it should be (by the looks of it so far!) quite a bit nicer than the one we all got in 1982 (with respect to Parker Brothers).  And C) no, it probably won't have all the music and be better than the Supercharger version.  Because it's going to be 4k.  Mr. @splendidnut is wrapping up a very nice gift for us.  And I, for one, can't wait to open it!  

Edited April 6 by Living Room Arcade

[Living Room Arcade]

...

[+MarcoJ]

23 hours ago, Living Room Arcade said:

Thank you for making us a new Frogger!  It's beautiful!

agreed. And very playable. To fit all of this, including music into 4K is incredible. Thanks for posting @splendidnut

[Zoyx]

4 hours ago, Living Room Arcade said:

For some programmers, isn't the point of making a 4k Atari 2600 game now in 2024 to kind of say, "Hey, this is what we could have had when we were kids!  Wouldn't that've been GREAT!"  Like Dennis Debro's 4k Pac-Man.  Imagine getting that in 1982 instead of the one we all got. (With respect to Tod Frye.)  

 

Also, for some programmers, isn't the other side of it that it's like a programming challenge?  Doesn't the programmer say to himself or herself, "If I were limited to only 4k, could I do any better than THEY did?"  And then give it a try!  Why did Ed Fries limit himself to 4k to make his fantastic Atari 2600 versions of HALO and Rally-X?  For the challenge, I think.  

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if @splendidnut's intention was to make a new Frogger with all the bells and whistles, then he would not have announced that it's going to be 4k.  I think when the man said he's making a 4k Frogger, we all understand what that means.  A) He's challenging himself to do it in only 4k.  B) If all goes well, it should be (by the looks of it so far!) quite a bit nicer than the one we all got in 1982 (with respect to Parker Brothers).  And C) no, it probably won't have all the music and be better than the Supercharger version.  Because it's going to be 4k.  Mr. @splendidnut is wrapping up a very nice gift for us.  And I, for one, can't wait to open it!  

I thoroughly enjoyed the Parker Brothers' version of Frogger. I kept playing it even after I got the nearly arcade-perfect SuperCharger version. Atari's Pac-man was a rushed mess, and I didn't care for it. Remaking that was a lot more understandable, especially after we saw was capable with Ms. Pac-man. I also liked the remake of Defender that was sold by AtariAge. I am still curious as to what @splendidnut comes up with, but I will be judging it against the Parker Brothers and SuperCharger versions. Both of those versions were very important in my youth, so I may be a bit harsh.

[Living Room Arcade]

10 minutes ago, Zoyx said:

I thoroughly enjoyed the Parker Brothers' version of Frogger. I kept playing it even after I got the nearly arcade-perfect SuperCharger version. Atari's Pac-man was a rushed mess, and I didn't care for it. Remaking that was a lot more understandable, especially after we saw was capable with Ms. Pac-man. I also liked the remake of Defender that was sold by AtariAge. I am still curious as to what @splendidnut comes up with, but I will be judging it against the Parker Brothers and SuperCharger versions. Both of those versions were very important in my youth, so I may be a bit harsh.

Mr. @Zoyx, one day, when you decide to make an Atari 2600 homebrew, and you start the game developer thread and ask for feedback, how shall we reply to you?  With "harshness?"  Or with kindness?  In life, I find that one of the most beneficial exercises is to try to put on someone else's shoes, if for but a moment, and even in your mind, try to imagine how that must feel.  Try to imagine how @splendidnut must feel, doing his best, asking for (and receiving!) feedback.  How would you feel if you were in his shoes?  Try and imagine it.  I encourage you.  

Edited April 6 by Living Room Arcade

[Zoyx]

2 minutes ago, Living Room Arcade said:

Mr. @Zoyx, one day, when you decide to make an Atari 2600 homebrew, and you start the game developer thread and ask for feedback, how shall we reply to you?  With "harshness?"  Or with kindness?  In life, I find that one of the most beneficial exercises is to try to put on someone else's shoes, if for but a moment, and even in your mind, try to imagine how that must feel.  Try to imagine how @splendidnut must feel, doing his best, asking for (and receiving!) feedback.  How would you feel if you were in his shoes?  Try and imagine it.  I encourage you.  

I never coded an Atari game, but I coded a mod for Tribes 2 about twenty years ago. I also ran the game servers and moderated the PHPBB forums for the community. I was in my 30s at the time and I was dealing with a lot of teenagers. I developed a lot of patience and a thick skin when dealing with very emotional players.

[+splendidnut]

17 hours ago, Karl G said:

Specifically, I noticed the groups of two turtles have one sprite turtle followed by 3 lines presumably to represent the second turtle. I was wondering if you could instead use the lines to represent a partially submerged turtle instead? That way, you could have the group of two taking turns which one is submerged, and that way the lines would make more sense, and you still wouldn't need more than one sprite in the pair of turtles at a time.

Yeah, I've had similar thoughts as well.  I was also thinking about doing something with the ball... which I believe James mentioned during the ZPH showing.  Currently, the row kernels are a bit limited because they're written in C, so more should be able to be done when they're converted to ASM.  The current 'lily pad' concept is an experiment that I could get working quickly within the current constraints.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[+splendidnut]

@Zoyx  Being as you were a former forum moderator, I would think that you would be a bit more tactful and respectful here.  I've already asked you to stay on topic.  Do I need to remind you again?

[Zoyx]

6 minutes ago, splendidnut said:

@Zoyx  Being as you were a former forum moderator, I would think that you would be a bit more tactful and respectful here.  I've already asked you to stay on topic.  Do I need to remind you again?

I am offering my point of view. Stop going after me as a person. I respect you and your coding skills and you seem like a really nice person. If this is an exercise to hone your coding skills, or you are having a lot of fun coding this game, keep on going. If you think you are fulfilling a missing niche in the Atari 2600 catalog, you probably aren't.

[+Gemintronic]

Were there any special challenges setting up the dev environment (IDE, compiler, other tools) for C dev on the 2600?

 

 

[StephenJ]

Yet another excellent job from splendidnut.
The AA community thanks you!! 

[+littaum]

Very nice port!  Well worth turning off safe browsing in Chrome to download it.   

[+splendidnut]

12 hours ago, christo930 said:

Will it do the music correctly?  Every single version of Frogger released BITD, except the Supercharger version screwed on the music, even on very capable systems.  Frogger without the music isn't frogger.

 

While it certainly looks better than the PB version, after seeing it on ZPH,  I think it still needs quite a bit of work (it is an early preview, after all).  I don't know if it possible to surpass the supercharger version, especially in 4k with no extra RAM.  But I hope it is.

 

 

I don't hear this music on ZPH.  Just one quick tune that plays over and over with no triggers.  The arcade version has a different tune after each frog goes home.  The music is one of the best parts of frogger, especially for such an early game.

 

 

I don't want to come across as negative or unappreciative of all the hard work that goes into it.  I just have very high hopes for the game.  It will be hard to beat the supercharger version on the 2600.

 

 

A bit negative, but I appreciate you acknowledging that.  Ultimately, it's good feedback to have.

 

It will definitely be hard to beat the SuperCharger version of the game as that is a fantastic port.   I was doing some reverse engineering on that version back around November / December, and that's partially what triggered this project.  This is very much an experiment to try and squeeze a version into 4k.

 

With the music, I only put in the intro tune and a partial piece of the first song because I wanted to get basic gameplay done first before working out all the extra pieces... So I do want to do more with the music, since as you said, that's a very important part of Frogger.  Music data is relatively lightweight here, so it should be possible to fit in most, if not all, the rest of the music.

[Zoyx]

1 hour ago, Gemintronic said:

Were there any special challenges setting up the dev environment (IDE, compiler, other tools) for C dev on the 2600?

 

 

Also interested in this.

[christo930]

12 minutes ago, splendidnut said:

A bit negative, but I appreciate you acknowledging that.  Ultimately, it's good feedback to have.

 

It will definitely be hard to beat the SuperCharger version of the game as that is a fantastic port.   I was doing some reverse engineering on that version back around November / December, and that's partially what triggered this project.  This is very much an experiment to try and squeeze a version into 4k.

 

With the music, I only put in the intro tune and a partial piece of the first song because I wanted to get basic gameplay done first before working out all the extra pieces... So I do want to do more with the music, since as you said, that's a very important part of Frogger.  Music data is relatively lightweight here, so it should be possible to fit in most, if not all, the rest of the music.

I realized that it did sound somewhat negative and that is why I put that in there. I don't want to sound negative because in general I'm not.  Presumably as the first release, it is early days yet.

I figured the music was likely just a place holder.   It really is amazing how PB screwed up every single version of Frogger they created.  You would think they would ace the music on the C64 or even the Intellivision, which has a decent sound chip.

 

So please, don't take my statements as some kind of dis. It's not meant that way..

[+splendidnut]

7 hours ago, Living Room Arcade said:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if @splendidnut's intention was to make a new Frogger with all the bells and whistles, then he would not have announced that it's going to be 4k.  I think when the man said he's making a 4k Frogger, we all understand what that means.  A) He's challenging himself to do it in only 4k.  B) If all goes well, it should be (by the looks of it so far!) quite a bit nicer than the one we all got in 1982 (with respect to Parker Brothers).  And C) no, it probably won't have all the music and be better than the Supercharger version.  Because it's going to be 4k.  Mr. @splendidnut is wrapping up a very nice gift for us.  And I, for one, can't wait to open it!  

That nicely sums up my feelings on this project.  It's very much a fun coding challenge.

[christo930]

7 hours ago, Living Room Arcade said:

And C) no, it probably won't have all the music and be better than the Supercharger version. 

He also replied to my comment and said it most likely will.  Which is awesome.

[+splendidnut]

1 hour ago, Gemintronic said:

Were there any special challenges setting up the dev environment (IDE, compiler, other tools) for C dev on the 2600?

16 minutes ago, Zoyx said:

Also interested in this.

 

Setup is usually pretty straight forward.  I'm using the compiler I wrote to do this project, Neolithic C.  I run the compiler straight from the command prompt (win) or terminal (mac).  I utilize VS Code as a code editor and I use Subversion for version control.  I use Stella for running the project and the primary debugging tool.

 

I have a very basic C library for the Atari 2600 that has the TIA + RIOT registers defined in a couple of structures.  It also includes a few routines that help with using the RIOT timers for handling the video frame and the horizontal positioning routine.  And I have a 6-digit score kernel that I usually copy into every project.  That all forms the base that I start from for any project I do in C.

 

The challenges that come about are usually when I stumble upon a bug in my own compiler.  It usually takes me a bit to figure out my code is fine and that the compiler screwed up.

[Omegamatrix]

I've always liked Frogger. Really love seeing re-makes too!

 

@splendidnut Do you enjoy writing in C more than ASM?

[Living Room Arcade]

1 hour ago, splendidnut said:

That nicely sums up my feelings on this project.  It's very much a fun coding challenge.

 

My pleasure, @splendidnut!  I love these development threads.  Thanks for letting us see the WIP!  

Edited April 6 by Living Room Arcade