HDMI video tearing on the mini

[zitt]

I got a pair of The400 minis as part of a preorder from Atari.com.  My emails to retrogames.biz have gone unanswered. 

They just don't work and I suspect it's a HDMI compatibility issue.

 

I'm connecting these via an HDMI to DisplayPort cable to a Dell U2410 ultrasharp monitor because it's easier for me to game on my PC desk rather than a home theater setup.

 

This is what I'm seeing:

Both units do the same thing. 

A short video of the issue is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cCOGjXxow6KpARn4wNqhVyhWIIag1jO8/view?usp=drive_link

 

I've hooked up a regular PC to using the same HDMI to Display port cable and it works fine and is clear w/o tearing. It appears to be just the mini with the issue. 

 

I suspect that the Mini is outputting something other than 60Hz which is why the Dell isn't locking on properly.
Maybe 50Hz given this is a UK product?

 

Anyone have any thoughts outside "use a different monitor"?

 

[pjedavison]

7 hours ago, zitt said:

 

I suspect that the Mini is outputting something other than 60Hz which is why the Dell isn't locking on properly.
Maybe 50Hz given this is a UK product?

 

Anyone have any thoughts outside "use a different monitor"?

 

You select 50Hz or 60Hz on initial boot. That also affects whether the emulator uses PAL or NTSC colour palettes.

 

Try a factory reset (you'll lose any save states for the carousel games, but not any config changes or save states you've made to USB games) and make sure you select 60Hz if that's what your monitor is expecting.

[Fred_M]

I have tested the output of the 400 mini. It actually does switch between 720p 50hz and 720p 60hz, depending on the choice you made during setup.

 

Many PC monitors only work with 60hz.

 

In the cfg files of the games on an USB stick there is an option to state the machine used:

 

emulator_machine = "130xe-pal";

 

I am going to test this while my 400 mini is in 60hz (=NTSC) mode. I think it will work as the European built in (50hz) games (for example Henry's House and Elektraglide) are also running at the correct speed even when the user selected 60hz.

[zitt]

I'm not sure it ever asked me to specify the frequency at start up on either unit.
I'll try a factory reset after work.

[+remowilliams]

22 hours ago, Fred_M said:

I have tested the output of the 400 mini. It actually does switch between 720p 50hz and 720p 60hz, depending on the choice you made during setup.

I haven't tested PAL software on the unit - does it actually switch video modes when running it?

 

I quickly found out that theC64 does not, so when I run PAL software on my NTSC setup unit it plays but at the wrong speed.  There is a small hack utility for it that masquerades as a firmware update to actually switch the thing into 50Hz mode luckily, but it's ridiculous that it's required.

[Fred_M]

4 hours ago, remowilliams said:

I haven't tested PAL software on the unit - does it actually switch video modes when running it?

 

No, it does not. It only switches when you make a choice for 50hz or 60hz during setup. So it looks like the 400 mini has the same behaviour as the C64.

 

But....I tested the config file trick and it works.

 

If the system is setup for 60hz and you want to play European games that have compatibility issues when played in NTSC this simple trick will make them play.

 

Open the cfg-file of the game on the USB stick. If there is no cfg for that game, you have to run it first so the cfg-file is created.

 

In the cfg-file you will see a.o.

 

emulator_machine = "130xe-ntsc";
emulator_force_pal = false;

 

American users will see someting like "130xe-ntsc" or any other Atari 8-bt system. Change the emulator machine to "130xe-pal" (or any other Atari 8-bit computer in PAL) and emulator_force_pal to true.

 

emulator_machine = "130xe-pal";
emulator_force_pal = true;

 

The PAL-games will still run a bit faster than intended to (60hz), but they will work properly. I have tested this with a.o. Inside by Spektra (garbled screen and crashes in NTSC) and Draconus (flickering player missile graphics/sprites in NTSC).

 

Playing PAL-games at the correct speed should be possible. For example Altirra runs on Windows PCs. Monitor output of PCs is 60hz but when Altirra is set to PAL, all games and software run correctly and at the right speed even when the monitor output is 60hz. I will take a look at the Atari800 emulator settings, maybe there is an option to include in the cfg-file.

Edited April 12 by Fred_M

[+remowilliams]

Ugh, so its the same terrible thing that theC64 does...

[Fred_M]

1 minute ago, remowilliams said:

Ugh, so its the same terrible thing that theC64 does...

 

I was editing my post to add some extra info, but sadly..... yes.

[Spanner]

I run mine through a HDMI capture card, a cheap £15 HDMI capture with Loop so I runs it through OBS on Windows 11 1280x720 and it works fine, all RGLs machines work so it could be maybe not compatible with the HDMI to Display port cable, if you have THEC64 it might do the same, it uses the same main board inside it.

How are you powering THE400 Mini, it has the same problems THEC64 has so need more power then 5v 1A more like 3A some power suppies 5v 1A are crap like the one used on the Amazon Fire Stick.
 

Edited April 12 by Spanner

[zitt]

I'm pretty frustrated at this point. I bought this stupid thing to play Lee with my brother like we were 12.

A factory reset did provide me with 50 or 60Hz monitor options. But NEITHER work any differently. I couldn't see any difference during the "TV test" either. 

 

I have a usb 3.0 hub on my desk. It has normal usb and a usb 5v 1A charging port which I used for my Pixel. 

Neither port changes the behavior.

I just tried on a RazPi 5V 3A brick - no change.

 

Does the CFG file actually work if I'm running NTSC here in the states?
IE if I put a usb stick in the device with a properly configured .cfg file (no clue what that would entail); would the system configure itself for the built-in games based upon the config file?

Sounds like the suggestion would only work for games put on the usb stick; not "globally" - but I could just be using my engineering brain too litterlally.

 

An HDMI capture card; wouldn't that add excessive lag to the game?

[Fred_M]

5 hours ago, zitt said:

Does the CFG file actually work if I'm running NTSC here in the states?

IE if I put a usb stick in the device with a properly configured .cfg file (no clue what that would entail); would the system configure itself for the built-in games based upon the config file?

Sounds like the suggestion would only work for games put on the usb stick; not "globally" - but I could just be using my engineering brain too litterlally.

 

Sorry, but my CFG post was a bit off-topic. It will not solve your problem, it is a solution to run PAL-games that are not compatible with NTSC from USB stick. This has nothing to do with your tearing problem.

 

So you tried both 50hz and 60hz. You also tried different power supplies. The only thing you can do (sorry 😉) is to connect it to another monitor or TV, just to find out if your 400 minis are faulty or that your Dell monitor cannot handle the HDMI signal the 400 mini generates. I just have taken a look at the manual of your monitor and 720p resolution is not listed as a supported resolution.

 

Edited April 13 by Fred_M

[Spanner]

The built-in games use there own config file thats in its resources.bod file in the firmware where it copies it to the /tmp folder then runs the game when you run a game from the carousel so do not see what a config file on the USB Drive would do, only change your games your running from USB Media Access.
THE400 Carousel works exactly the same as THEA500 carousel, it even has the same files in its firmware, manhattan, skyline.

Edited April 13 by Spanner

[Spanner]

It might be easier to capture the HDMI from THE400 Mini and see it in Windows 11 using OBS, you can then select 1280x720 then, I use this...
https://www.amazon.com/DAUERHAFT-Capture-Nintendo-Teaching-Recording/dp/B08QRN3NB4/

[zitt]

Ok. Follow up. Was able to get the output via the OBS and a HDMI to USB capture dongle similar to what @Spanner suggested.

 

I went with  http://Pinball.Click/B09TQLWT1V 
I was then rightly shutdown by the pos joystick on the unit. 

[Spanner]

Nice one, glad it all worked out, this is what mine looks like, it has putty next to it so I can see PCUAE booting and what commands its running and to make sure its working properly and fully loaded correctly, when you press S(Menu) button on THECXSTICK or CTRL(Menu) Key on a keyboard, the shortcut menu appear on the putty screen, its so I know what they are or I can just copy and paste them if someone needs them, they change with each Mode too so depending on the Mode it will show a different set of shortcuts.

See the shortcut buttons in Putty below, I thought it was a nice idea, I can never forget them that way because I always can see them by pressing S(Corner)(Menu)button... 

Or by pressing CTRL(Menu) Key on the keyboard.

Have a nice day...

Edited April 29 by Spanner

[Marius]

Perhaps a very dumb comment from me, but @remowilliams, isn't it somehow charming that even in 2024 on some kind of immitation atari 8bit computer, we still have to tinker with things like this... just like in the old days? Like having friends who had VHS, other BETAMAX and again other Video2000... not to speak about printers with a serial connection and other printers with a parallel connection? 

 

I have not the Atari 400 mini, and I have to admit I am rather interested in it... but I love my original a8 way to much to exchange it for some kind of replica. But I was reading this thread (and other threads about the 400 mini, because I am secretly really interested) and I thought: oh this is cool, people have to find all kind of creative solutions to let things work or not. 

 

On the real platform there are these issues too between PAL and NTSC. I once had to adapt Pole Position to make a fair play possible in some kind of competition where both NTSC and PAL users took place. The PAL players had it much easier, so I created a version that was comparable with the NTSC timing. To be honest... that was (at least for me) one of the coolest things to do on the atari 8bit... the creative solutions to all kind of daily problems on the platform.

 

Perhaps I completely misunderstood the issue and solutions... but this was what crossed my mind when I read this thread. 

[zitt]

Retrogames needs to fix this stupid joystick... and publish the specs for the hdmi video on the box, website, and manual.

Then; maybe it'd be worth the 129 price.

If I hadn't already invested in the platform by opening in the joystick; I'd return it.

[mimo]

2 hours ago, zitt said:

Retrogames needs to fix this stupid joystick... and publish the specs for the hdmi video on the box, website, and manual.

Then; maybe it'd be worth the 129 price.

If I hadn't already invested in the platform by opening in the joystick; I'd return it.

Just return it, doubt they'll check.
I returned mine, it's just not worth the asking price IMO. When they hit $50 maybe I'll bite again 

[THX-1138]

On 4/11/2024 at 5:48 AM, zitt said:

I got a pair of The400 minis as part of a preorder from Atari.com.  My emails to retrogames.biz have gone unanswered. 

They just don't work and I suspect it's a HDMI compatibility issue.

 

I'm connecting these via an HDMI to DisplayPort cable to a Dell U2410 ultrasharp monitor because it's easier for me to game on my PC desk rather than a home theater setup.

 

This is what I'm seeing:

Both units do the same thing. 

A short video of the issue is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cCOGjXxow6KpARn4wNqhVyhWIIag1jO8/view?usp=drive_link

 

I've hooked up a regular PC to using the same HDMI to Display port cable and it works fine and is clear w/o tearing. It appears to be just the mini with the issue. 

 

I suspect that the Mini is outputting something other than 60Hz which is why the Dell isn't locking on properly.
Maybe 50Hz given this is a UK product?

 

Anyone have any thoughts outside "use a different monitor"?

 

In my experience of RGL products, they only support proper HDMI.  I had nothing but trouble trying to get any type of monitor to work properly.

[Marc Oberhäuser]

6 hours ago, mimo said:

Just return it, doubt they'll check.
I returned mine, it's just not worth the asking price IMO. When they hit $50 maybe I'll bite again 

👍