patjomki Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 1 hour ago, foft said: It plays pretty much everything I throw at it and even switches the pokeymax automatically to 6581 or 8580 mode. It was just a wild guess. Its his program and he has his reasons (which I do not know) not to publish it atm so my posting was not intended to criticize his sid player. It's a great achievement and I am glad it exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 19 hours ago, patjomki said: There is no complicated conversion needed. You just need an sid-player program on the ATARI. As @foft already mentioned there is a player from @xxlh that was patched to work with PokeyMax (as different sid hardware for the ATARI maps the SID(s) to different hardware addresses). I've read somewhere that software-SID player of @Saint (Swiety) was adapted for PokeyMax (or SlightSID), but can't find such version anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madness77 Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 (edited) Hi, Out of curiosity, I asked PCBWay for a small batch production cost estimate: MAX 10M08 ~11USD each. Component Cost $124,08 Assembly Cost $29,00 PCB Cost $5,00 V1 Member 1% off -$0,34 All Total 5 Sets $157,74 So the production cost of one fully assembled piece comes out somewhere around 31,5 USD. Still a bit expensive. 😕 Shipping is free. You will still have to pay fee, VAT and customs duties might be added on delivery. It would probably be cheaper at JLCPCB, but they don't have the entire BOM currently. 10M08 @ Ali: 8.62 USD https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006719653642.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.153438daKtnlZs&mp=1 Edited August 8 by madness77 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Larry Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 Wow, that looks incredibly better than 110 Euros! ($120 currently.) So if I read the BOM correctly, it includes everything including the MAX 10M08. This is starting to look enticing! Then all that is left is the programming? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madness77 Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 7 minutes ago, Larry said: Then all that is left is the programming? Not quite, there are still THT parts left like connectors and legs but that's a piece of cake. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woj Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 31 minutes ago, madness77 said: but that's a piece of cake. Wasn't on my first one 😜 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 5 hours ago, madness77 said: So the production cost of one fully assembled piece comes out somewhere around 31,5 USD. Still a bit expensive. 😕 Are you serious? PokeyMax is commercial project with lot of effort put into it on both hardware and firmware fronts, I believe. Retronics distributes it, provides warranty, etc. they're doing great things, but it's fair to let such companies earn, so they can live from it and continue with next projects, don't you think? Otherwise they extinct... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madness77 Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jacques said: Are you serious? PokeyMax is commercial project with lot of effort put into it on both hardware and firmware fronts, I believe. Retronics distributes it, provides warranty, etc. they're doing great things, but it's fair to let such companies earn, so they can live from it and continue with next projects, don't you think? Otherwise they extinct... These are the costs of production in a minimum batch. They are much lower with large orders, wholesale prices for components and a discount for corporate customers. Don't confuse production costs with the price of the finished product, programmed, in a box, with instructions and warranty. I greatly value and respect Retronics, I have many books and computer covers from them. They run a legitimate business, pay taxes, social insurance and an accountant's salary. And have a decent margin. Remember, however, that the final price is governed by the law of demand-sale. When availability is low and demand is high, it is jacked up. Fortunately, components are cheap and available again and, for example, PC graphics card prices are again at an acceptable level. Edited August 8 by madness77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreamingAtTheRadio Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 Not only that, it was incredibly generous of @foft to share his design for the community, and for anyone to build their own, no strings attached. There should be some way for folks like me going down the road of getting a small batch made for themselves, to compensate @foft with a reasonable donation? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madness77 Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 (edited) 6 minutes ago, ScreamingAtTheRadio said: ... to compensate @foft with a reasonable donation? sharing the project e.g. on: https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/DIY-Electronics/ allows easy ordering, and the creator gets a percentage of each PCB or assembled unit ordered (PCBWay Donate 10% cost To Author) Edited August 8 by madness77 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreamingAtTheRadio Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 1 minute ago, madness77 said: sharing the project e.g. on: https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/DIY-Electronics/ allows easy ordering, and the creator gets a percentage of each PCB or assembled unit ordered Sure, that's great, but I personally don't want to work with PCBWay for reasons of my own, and as far as I know JLC doesn't have a similar program. Also, direct donation is more beneficial for the creator than such a commission (which is great, don't get me wrong). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foft Posted August 9 Author Share Posted August 9 The price gets much better with larger quantities too, even with the ‘proper’ 10M16. Probably worth doing 50 or 100. Don’t forget to factor some failed units into your pricing. Anyway I chatted to @mono. He has already released the psg player with pokeymax support: http://www.atari.org.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=316901#p316901 https://mono.i-demo.pl/ For stc and sid he asks a few more weeks to finish up to his standards and get all the glory from his hard work 😃 I do have a PayPal but don’t typically ask for donations, though since you ask: scrameta@googlemail.com It’s basically my hobby fund where I try to make and sell enough to pay for my toys 😁 I lose far more from my investment skill almost every day than this, so if anyone wants to donate investment advice 😂 1 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mono Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 (edited) As a note on the side (because both pages are in Polish) - you can download packages in different formats with .zip/.atr/.arc extensions for instance https://mono.i-demo.pl/psgplay/psgplayh.atr, https://mono.i-demo.pl/psgplay/psgplayh.zip etc. Because links use simple HTTP GET method what may be cached by the browser or internet provider you can add any parameter to the url e.g. ...psgplayh.atr?v=aaabbbbccc or whatever to skip the cache. Edited August 9 by mono typo 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreamingAtTheRadio Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 Today's attempt at building the BOM at JLCPCB. Missing or inventory shortages: CN1 18nF cap network -> I can work the board a little and transform that into 4 discrete caps, no reason for this to be a network that JLC doesn't seem to have at all. U1 TSV854IQ4T quad op-amp U2, U4 SN74CB3T16211SM 24-way level shifters JTAG0 CONN_03X2LOCK JTAG connector X1 ASE oscillator (didn't find the frequency, I could probably find a replacement) Without placing those components, that gives a total of $121 for five assembled units, shipping included, before coupons. I've updated my repo with the latest full design, migrated to KiCad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foft Posted August 10 Author Share Posted August 10 (edited) 1 hour ago, ScreamingAtTheRadio said: Today's attempt at building the BOM at JLCPCB. Missing or inventory shortages: CN1 18nF cap network -> I can work the board a little and transform that into 4 discrete caps, no reason for this to be a network that JLC doesn't seem to have at all. U1 TSV854IQ4T quad op-amp U2, U4 SN74CB3T16211SM 24-way level shifters JTAG0 CONN_03X2LOCK JTAG connector X1 ASE oscillator (didn't find the frequency, I could probably find a replacement) Without placing those components, that gives a total of $121 for five assembled units, shipping included, before coupons. I've updated my repo with the latest full design, migrated to KiCad. For the 18nF network, it does not exist at digikey either. I used 22nF. For the JTAG connector, it's just a plain old 2.54mm header. Can be unpopulated if using the pogo pins (or have patience) or populated with a plain old 3x2 header otherwise. http://www.64kib.com/pokeymax_files/pokeymax_jtag_adaptor/ The oscillator brand isn't important, though 49.152MHz is best if you want reliable SPDIF. I think it works with some devices with a 50MHz clock but not all. Any old 3.3v oscillator in that size will do. The level shifters and op amp are a bit annoying. For PCBWay you can send missing components, I wonder if JLCPCB allow that? Though when I was going to try it with pcbway the parts I needed were on aliexpress, but ... aliexpress does not ship to China?! Edited August 10 by foft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreamingAtTheRadio Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 9 minutes ago, foft said: The level shifters and op amp are a bit annoying. For PCBWay you can send missing components, I wonder if JLCPCB allow that? Though when I was going to try it with pcbway the parts I needed were on aliexpress, but ... aliexpress does not ship to China?! I'm pretty sure they do. I also have a contact there, I'll ask them for help coming up with a complete BOM that's reliably in stock. They're usually pretty helpful. Also think just using plain caps rather than a network is the way to go for factory-assembled boards, I can make that change... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w1k Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 installation is same like v3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woj Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 37 minutes ago, w1k said: installation is same like v3? Never had v3, but the answer is probably yes and no. Yes because the set of lines is the same or downwards compatible with v3, no because the output pin layout is different. And I am only confident about the latter part. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 On 8/10/2024 at 3:17 AM, ScreamingAtTheRadio said: I'm pretty sure they do. I also have a contact there, I'll ask them for help coming up with a complete BOM that's reliably in stock. They're usually pretty helpful. Also think just using plain caps rather than a network is the way to go for factory-assembled boards, I can make that change... Hi @ScreamingAtTheRadio, Have you made any headway updating the files so they can be submitted to JLCPCB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreamingAtTheRadio Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 2 hours ago, scorpio_ny said: Hi @ScreamingAtTheRadio, Have you made any headway updating the files so they can be submitted to JLCPCB? Yes. I was able to pre-order the missing components (I didn't have to ask them to add new components to the catalog for this board, but that would have been a possibility as well, I did that for another board of mine). When they arrive, I'll make a first batch and update this thread on the results. In the meantime, I'll update my repo with the updated files. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 29 minutes ago, ScreamingAtTheRadio said: Yes. I was able to pre-order the missing components (I didn't have to ask them to add new components to the catalog for this board, but that would have been a possibility as well, I did that for another board of mine). When they arrive, I'll make a first batch and update this thread on the results. In the meantime, I'll update my repo with the updated files. Great! Thank you very much!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreamingAtTheRadio Posted August 18 Share Posted August 18 Latest update. There are fees associated with pre-ordered components, and that bumps up the price for five units to $196.07 without shipping. I'm also not even done with component substitutions and pre-orders. This is quite a lot of work. I'll publish what I have on the github repo when it's in a decent state, but the PCBWay price is looker better and better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreamingAtTheRadio Posted August 19 Share Posted August 19 (edited) Worse: I got hit by minimum quantities of 3000 on the level shifters. I'm considering options here, but I'm starting to get the hang of the schematic and I'm considering doing some pretty radical redesign based on part availability. This will take some more time... I'm thinking simple stereo board with a 10M02, and 2x SN74CBTD16210 shifters, that provide the 39 needed lines and are a little more available. Other substitutions as availability requires. I've already got rid of all C and R networks, there's enough room and discrete Rs and Cs are much easier to source at JLC in these sizes. Edited August 19 by ScreamingAtTheRadio 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreamingAtTheRadio Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 OK, so I just ordered 5 assembled Pokeymax 4 from JLCPCB with a maxed-out MAX10M16 for $160 before shipping. Not too bad. I had to pre-order the ampop and level shifters but in the end, the price is competitive with the PCBWay quote we had before, especially considering this is the fattest MAX10. The files on my GitHub are up-to-date and what I used for that order. I'll update here when I get the chips, at which time I'll have to program them and add the headers. Still, I'm working on a leaner version that's designed to have a BOM that is maximally available from the JLC parts library. This one should be sufficient for a basic stereo Pokey and should be as easy to order as uploading three files. It should also be substantially cheaper. Made some good progress on that last night. 6 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreamingAtTheRadio Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 JLC came back to me with a concern that the discrete footprints on the PCB are not really 0402 like the footprint name would suggest. I'll have to replace the components I selected. This is a very minor setback but out of curiosity, @foft can you confirm what the intended footprint was for those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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