Yars Rising, Atari's Metroid Dread moment!

[Giles N]

And it’s so sad … a game like Maze Invaders, when they saw it didn’t make enough money… could’ve been brought back to be refined and redesigned, - in my esteem it could’ve really been something given just a few easy fixes, - not like having to explain or redo the paradigm all-over, but just better visuals, more eyecandy, a way to win the game, cool or fun music and power-ups… but no… 

 

[TampaBay]

43 minutes ago, Giles N said:

This is a pure design flaw.

 

How could, or why should, a new gamer suspect touching the main-enemy(!!!)  that one need nothing less than a cannon (!!!) to take down, to be safe, sound, and the next obvious and logical step in the gameplay scheme??

 

 

Haha,  you think THAT'S counterintuitive!?  How about the fact that once your cannon is activated, you aim it by using YOURSELF as the cross hair.  That's right, once you press the fire button to fire your cannon, the bullet comes straight at you and kills you unless you dodge your own bullet in the split second you have after you fire it.   😀

[Giles N]

6 minutes ago, TampaBay said:

 

Haha,  you think THAT'S counterintuitive!?  How about the fact that once your cannon is activated, you aim it by using YOURSELF as the cross hair.  That's right, once you press the fire button to fire your cannon, the bullet comes straight at you and kills you unless you dodge your own bullet in the split second you have after you fire it.   😀

So… there was a reason why they needed a whopping 40 years to do gameplay-fix…!

    

 

Did this game make big money in the Arcades…? Or was is mostly a 2600-home video-game with 300 page manual, that made it iconic?

 

How long do you think this take on gameplay would’ve survived in Japan(s gaming market)?

Edited April 20 by Giles N

[TampaBay]

3 minutes ago, Giles N said:

So… there was a reason why they needed a whopping 40 years to do gameplay fix…!

 

Did this game make big money in the Arcades…? Or was is mostly a 2600-home video-game with 300 page manual that made it iconic?

 

How long do you think this take on gameplay would’ve survived in Japan…?

 

😀  It was never in the arcade.   It was introduced on the 2600. Maybe it was ported to other consoles, not sure. 

 

I actually love the game.  I play it all the time, at least weekly.  Once you know how it all works, it's a nice challenge.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

1 hour ago, Giles N said:

This is a pure design flaw.

 

How could, or why should, a new gamer suspect touching the main-enemy(!!!)  that one need nothing less than a cannon (!!!) to take down, to be safe, sound, and the next obvious and logical step in the gameplay scheme??

 

I know people back then had LSD on their sandwiches for breakfast, but you still shouldn’t be able to bring your mind to perform logical breakdowns like ‘’whats displayed there to kill and destroy you, which you need a cannon to take down… yes, little bee - just fly over and touch it… its safe’

 

To be fair, they mentioned that this was one of the two ways to get the Zorlon cannon in the original game's manual. I know most games have no manual anymore, but back in the day, you couldn't have a tutorial to explain things, so relied on the manual.

 

 

I would say it's not a design flaw for two reasons:

 

1) What happens if a player just sprays and prays the shield away with their normal shot? How are they supposed to get the ZC? The shield doesn't regenerate, so some way was needed to accomplish this.

2) This becomes a high risk, high reward feature that builds the tension

 

I grew up playing games like YR, and I think I just discovered this trick on accident. I didn't think "that's stupid!," it taught me to use strategy. If the shields were gone and I'd used, but missed, with the ZC, then I learned to wait for the Qotile to fire, hope it missed me, then immediately go and touch it to get the ZC. Otherwise, it's a tension building risk...will it kill me when I'm right there, or will it not. Still, it never fires immediately after it already has fired, so that's always your chance.

 

As for this new take in the form of Yars' Rising, I'll wait to play it and see. I am glad they are looking to bring it back, but when I first watched the trailer, it seemed to me like they just had some other Metroidvania in development, Atari asked if they wanted to do a Yars game, then slapped that license on to it. I could be wrong. Still, from the trailer, I am disappointed that it doesn't appear to follow the original game's lore (from the manual and comic book) at all, but we'll see if their surprise somehow ties it all together.

 

Edited April 20 by Shaggy the Atarian
fixing muh grammar

[Shaggy the Atarian]

4 minutes ago, TampaBay said:

 

😀  It was never in the arcade.   It was introduced on the 2600. Maybe it was ported to other consoles, not sure. 

 

I actually love the game.  I play it all the time, at least weekly.  Once you know how it all works, it's a nice challenge.

It's a stretch, but it kind of was in arcades. 

 

YR started off as a port of Cinematronics' Star Castle, but when HSW couldn't get that concept to work right on the 2600, he retooled it and gave us YR. 

[Giles N]

1 hour ago, TampaBay said:

 

😀  It was never in the arcade.   It was introduced on the 2600. Maybe it was ported to other consoles, not sure. 

 

I actually love the game.  I play it all the time, at least weekly.  Once you know how it all works, it's a nice challenge.

Well, then I take back it’s design-flaw.

 

Without having read the manual, I’d guess it’s s way to try make home-console games offer a deeper or more complex game-mechanic.

 

I thought some Arcade of this had been around. 
I shuddered as I envisioned the confused and shocked Arcade gamers

who spent hours with futile trial and error gaming,

then spent years in a Asylum where they babbled nonsensically about insects, space, cannons and Qotiles …

 

…but of course, being home-console game with a manual makes for utterly different situation,

 

You have my sympathy, but I won’t lie to you: methinks I’d much prefer Battlezone and Smurf… 

 

SneakyBox saved the day for me, concerning this one.

Edited April 20 by Giles N

[TampaBay]

16 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

It's a stretch, but it kind of was in arcades. 

 

YR started off as a port of Cinematronics' Star Castle, but when HSW couldn't get that concept to work right on the 2600, he retooled it and gave us YR. 

Yep, I'd seen that as well.  Star Castle is another great game which I play all the time.  That game is HARD.  The sounds in it are awesome though. 

[Giles N]

22 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

I think I just discovered it on accident

Yeah, - that^ was what I considered had to be gameplay design flaw.

 

Learned now, it’s all in the manual.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

7 minutes ago, Giles N said:

Yeah, - that^ was what I considered had to be gameplay design flaw.

 

Learned now, it’s all in the manual.

I was 4 or 5, I might have read it in the manual, but I also might have not...t'was so long ago now 🧙‍♂️

 

 

[Razzie.P]

1 hour ago, Giles N said:

This is a pure design flaw.

 

....

....

....

 

Short version: after 40+ years, they finally fixed Yars.
 

 

I'm so embarrassed for you right now.  😌

 

 

[Giles N]

20 minutes ago, Razzie.P said:

I'm so embarrassed for you right now.  😌

 

 

That’s probably due to not reading the necessary and relevant information contained in a post I wrote here 41 minutes ago, about me not having read the necessary and relevant information contained in the manual about how to play the game.

 

If you’re still embarrassed and all that… suit yourself, it’s your life.

 

 

Edited April 20 by Giles N

[Razzie.P]

17 minutes ago, Giles N said:

That’s probably due to not reading the necessary and relevant information contained in a post I wrote here 41 minutes ago, about me not having read the necessary and relevant information contained in the manual about how to play the game.

 

If you’re still embarrassed and all that… suit yourself, it’s your life.

 

 

I know.  I was joking/kidding really, but apologies if that didn't come out that way.

[Giles N]

14 minutes ago, Razzie.P said:

I know.  I was joking/kidding really, but apologies if that didn't come out that way.

I wondered if I been too harsh on a favourite of others, which personally did nothing for me until I played Yars:Recharged. 
So… I just wanted to say, - I did change my mind seeing it was designed to be played dependent on a manual, not just on whats on-screen after you turn it on.

 

I wonder if technically they could’ve made space for some auto-game intro, stopping at certain points, showing text explaining what you was supposed to accomplish, or whether memory was absolutely filled on the cart?

 

On Yars:Recharged, only a tiny intro-tutorial is enough to explain the main point, which could make it eligable for a Arcade cabinet version. 

 

The 2600 version - if it doesn’t have it, would feel more ‘arcadey’

if it had a little tirtorial auto-game.

 

But then again, if the entire point was to make home-consoles have more complex gameplay, to make it worth for people to get ‘originals’ not only ports, then they probably wouldn’t have done it anyway.

 

 

[CharlesEChuck]

4 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

I am glad they are looking to bring it back, but when I first watched the trailer, it seemed to me like they just had some other Metroidvania in development, Atari asked if they wanted to do a Yars game, then slapped that license on to it. I could be wrong. Still, from the trailer, I am disappointed that it doesn't appear to follow the original game's lore (from the manual and comic book) at all, but we'll see if their surprise somehow ties it all together.

Everyone says that this game will not fit the original lore without knowing much about the story of Yars Rising. I also don't know much but I still strongly disagree. The original story comes down to humans sending flies to space where they find superpowers to fight the mysterious Qotile enemy. Now, if you don't want another space shooter, the concept of a human infiltrating the Qotile base with the help of the Yars and their superpowers to hack and destroy e.g. their swirl (Qo)technology or whatever seems to be the only logical and fitting gameplay idea for a sequel you could think of! It just makes sense in every way.

Edited April 20 by CharlesEChuck

[CharlesEChuck]

Even the idea that the protagonist is not a Yar, who's very likely to be discovered on that mission, but a human with a secret connection to the Yars, kind of like a chosen one with powers routed in both worlds, is a perfect choice. Turning the original Yars gameplay into hacking sections, much like the Cyberspace in System Shock, is pretty genius and absolutely not something you could just "slap" on any generic Metroidvania game. All this shows that the people who thought up this game deeply care about the concept and lore of the original and conceptualized the game to be exactly like this from the start.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

8 hours ago, CharlesEChuck said:

Everyone says that this game will not fit the original lore without knowing much about the story of Yars Rising. I also don't know much but I still strongly disagree. The original story comes down to humans sending flies to space where they find superpowers to fight the mysterious Qotile enemy. Now, if you don't want another space shooter, the concept of a human infiltrating the Qotile base with the help of the Yars and their superpowers to hack and destroy e.g. their swirl (Qo)technology or whatever seems to be the only logical and fitting gameplay idea for a sequel you could think of! It just makes sense in every way.

You're close but per the comic book, the Yars/Razakians came from a crashed ship and space radiation, they weren't sent up into space as some kind of experiment. They were an accident.  Not that this is a huge deal or anything as we're arguing over a 40+ year old game's lore.  Again, so far this feels like WayForward is interjecting the YR story into something else they had been working on. Perhaps not and I'm wrong. That's just the impression  so far. No need to bend over backwards to defend a game none of us have played yet.

 

Regardless Rising's genesis, it's silly to claim that what WayForward is doing is the ONLY "logical and fitting gameplay idea" as 1) Rising appears to be a prequel, not a sequel. 2) Just the comic book & game itself provides plenty of lore for in-universe sequels - what happens after Yars exacts his revenge and saves Razak III? Shouldn't there be other Qotile aliens in the galaxy? Might they attack again? Are they attacking other planets/solar systems? Is there a reason behind all that, if so, what is it? Do the Yars go on the warpath to ensure that another Razak IV event never happens again or do they sit around in fear waiting for another attack to happen? There are many "logical and fitting" ways you could go with that that don't somehow involve a human hacker on Earth fighting against an evil human corporation. I'd say that's less intuitive and "fitting" to the story, just on its face. In fact, yet another evil corporation doing evil things is just as tired a cliche as an evil alien race invading planets at this point. 

 

3 hours ago, CharlesEChuck said:

Even the idea that the protagonist is not a Yar, who's very likely to be discovered on that mission, but a human with a secret connection to the Yars, kind of like a chosen one with powers routed in both worlds, is a perfect choice. Turning the original Yars gameplay into hacking sections, much like the Cyberspace in System Shock, is pretty genius and absolutely not something you could just "slap" on any generic Metroidvania game. All this shows that the people who thought up this game deeply care about the concept and lore of the original and conceptualized the game to be exactly like this from the start.

Perhaps you work for WayForward or you're a WF shill, but sounds to me like you're projecting. They just as easily could have already had a concept for their MV-style game where you played a mini-game as a part of the hacking component (most hacking elements of video games are just mini-games anyways, so is that really "genius?"), so when the Yar license came along, it became "well, scrap the one we had, put in the OG Yar instead." Maybe it is a sequel in that case although that doesn't really explain how any of the lore ties together or how the Yar/Razaks ended up back on Earth to imbue random humans with super powers. None of that comes from the comic.  

 

Again, I'll give the game a chance and perhaps I'll really enjoy it. But you popping into the forums out of nowhere and making these absolutist statements about how they can only make the sequel in this way is a bit absurd. 

[CharlesEChuck]

Ok, you're probably right, I'm the projecting shill and Atari continues with their recent practice of carelessly slapping their IP on existing games. I'll head back to the gate and wait there for approval before I dare popping into a forum again to share my opinion.

[Razzie.P]

6 hours ago, CharlesEChuck said:

Turning the original Yars gameplay into hacking sections, much like the Cyberspace in System Shock, is pretty genius and absolutely not something you could just "slap" on any generic Metroidvania game.

Something like that is actually very simple to "slap" on any sort of generic game.

 

But even so, I'm looking forward to this one more than anything Atari related in a long time, so I really hope it turns out to be up there with the "better" part of WayForward's work.

[CharlesEChuck]

28 minutes ago, Razzie.P said:

Something like that is actually very simple to "slap" on any sort of generic game.

That's fair! I think it's a great idea that makes a lot of sense here. I don't know if this is a thing and used a lot, but I imagine having to play a round of '83 Mario Bros to open a door in Mario Odyssey just wouldn't work as well.

 

Thanks for staying fair even though I may have said something that's not objectively true. I'm equally exited for this one.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

2 hours ago, CharlesEChuck said:

Ok, you're probably right, I'm the projecting shill and Atari continues with their recent practice of carelessly slapping their IP on existing games. I'll head back to the gate and wait there for approval before I dare popping into a forum again to share my opinion.

I'm sorry that your mind can't even conceive of anything other than what was shown in a 1 minutish trailer, but when all you've posted are "everything Atari does is gold!!!" posts, then make absolute statements like you did in this thread, you shouldn't be so shocked that someone might gently push back and see you as a shill.

 

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[CharlesEChuck]

My guy, I really don't get what it is with you. You mentioned that you're disappointed this game doesn't seem to follow the original's lore. I disagree because the main story elements seem to exist in both games and what we know about Rising could in my opinion actually happen in the Yariverse and even make a lot of sense.

I read somewhere that Atari believes the best games happen when developers are given artistic freedom to do what they enjoy. Dreams Uncorporated got Lunar Lander and made a game in their very own style without much micromanagement to turn it any more "Atari-ish". I think this is likely what happens here. Wayforward got Yars and does what they do best. In their own way. If the resulting game is fun who really cares if it has a different story than a one-screener from 1981. Strange thing is, I feel we can completely agree on that point.

You know, in the last days I closely followed what you shared in that Asteroids Arcade thread and really liked it (I still do). I thought you're the coolest guy and was happy about the fair exchange there. And suddenly you're here, crafting an essay to dissect evey single word I say, calling me names and my opinion absurd, even somehow implying I shouldn't comment at all, when all I did was wrongly using the word ONLY and not figure out how to edit when I realized it was not appropriate (even before you replied).

I am a long time Atari fan and I think you are too. There is no need to go about each other like this and it's certainly not necessary to accuse a new joiner to this community of ill will just because they have a different opinion than you. Fun with Atari and views on games are not exclusive to you and it's sad that you feel the need to be unfair and offensive. I was respectful all the time and I think you are not.

Edited April 20 by CharlesEChuck

[Shaggy the Atarian]

24 minutes ago, CharlesEChuck said:

My guy, I really don't get what it is with you. You mentioned that you're disappointed this game doesn't seem to follow the original's lore. I disagree because the main story elements seem to exist in both games and what we know about Rising could in my opinion actually happen in the Yariverse and even make a lot of sense.
 

I already explained my pushback; you can have that opinion, I'm not saying that you can't, so I think you're reading way too much into my posts. Neither of us can know how this will end up, but I'll say for the Xth time, I hope it's a great game.

 

Quote

I read somewhere that Atari believes the best games happen when developers are given artistic freedom to do what they enjoy. Dreams Uncorporated got Lunar Lander and made a game in their very own style without much micromanagement to turn it any more "Atari-ish". I think this is likely what happens here. Wayforward got Yars and does what they do best. In their own way. If the resulting game is fun who really cares if it has a different story than a one-screener from 1981. Strange thing is, I feel we can completely agree on that point.

 

Yes, we do agree there for the most part. I don't care for when companies retcon things, as that's usually a red flag that it isn't good. That's the only thing I'm really concerned about when it comes to this game. No need to blow it up from there. 

 

Quote

You know, in the last days I closely followed what you shared in that Asteroids Arcade thread and really liked it (I still do). I thought you're the coolest guy and was happy about the fair exchange there. And suddenly you're here, crafting an essay to dissect evey single word I say, calling me names and my opinion absurd, even somehow implying I shouldn't comment at all, when all I did was wrongly using the word ONLY and not figure out how to edit when I realized it was not appropriate (even before you replied).

I am a long time Atari fan and I think you are too. There is no need to go about each other like this and it's certainly not necessary to accuse a new joiner to this community of ill will just because they have a different opinion than you. Fun with Atari and views on games are not exlusive to you and it's sad that you feel the need to be unfair and offensive. I was respectful all the time and I think you are not.

 Apologies for being a bit abrasive on my language, but you should realize that being pretty new and coming in with your own attack at the start on some little thing I said isn't going to start things off on the right foot. Since you're new and there's little history on your side, I can only react to what I see here and it just came off as a bit odd and shilly. Forums are always full of some pushback, so if you post something that someone else doesn't agree with, there's usually going to be some discussion about that.  

Edited April 20 by Shaggy the Atarian

[Razzie.P]

52 minutes ago, CharlesEChuck said:

I don't know if this is a thing and used a lot, but I imagine having to play a round of '83 Mario Bros to open a door in Mario Odyssey just wouldn't work as well.

 

 

Hmm... it could be "neat," and a fun approach to things, but would surely feel a bit tongue -n-cheek to be playing as Mario and have to play an old school Mario mini game.  😁  I dunno, it sounds silly, but something about the idea of it makes me smile a bit and thinking it could work.

 

I think adding something like that is a simple thing, of course, especially with today's development tools -- but the difficult part is finding that balance with making it fun but not taking away from the core game.  Sly Cooper series comes to mind for me -- now this is a series that I absolutely ADORE, but --  but they had these hacking mini games where you'd play a simple, retro feeling "top down shooter" and it was fun and it seemed to fit. But as you got deeper into the game, those increased in length and complexity to where at some point, some players (myself included) were just like "not another one of these..."   They had gotten a bit too involved and became more of a chore than a fun part of the game.  So that's the hard part, in my opinion at least.  They could do it easily, they could make it fit easily, but finding that sweet spot is gonna be the hard part.

 

 

[CharlesEChuck]

15 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

No need to blow it up from there. 

My first reply to you surely wasn't meant as an attack. I'm sorry if it came through as such! Your response confirms my initial impression of you from the Asteroids thread. I hope you also take my word that your initial impression of me may have been a bit off. I really like Atari and don't think I need an agenda or stamp to support what I like. There's really no sense in shilling Atari on AtariAge, where most people have a deeper connection and longer history with the brand than the company itself. I started on the wrong foot with you and agree there's no need to blow it up from here. I wish you the best with your Arcade and look forward to more fun discussions