bigfriendly Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Have any of you ever come across this information over the years? I'm sure a title could be missing but here is a list and I think it covers most of the early releases from Atari up to 1980 and possibly some of 1981. ROM Combat CX2601 C 2 Air-Sea Battle CX2602 U 2 Star Ship CX2603 R 2 Space War CX2604 U 2 Outlaw CX2605 U 2 Slot Racers CX2606 U 2 Canyon Bomber CX2607 U 2 Warlords CX2610 U 4 Indy 500 CX2611 U 2 Street Racer CX2612 U 2 Adventure CX2613 C 4 Pele's Soccer CX2616 C 4 Backgammon CX2617 U 4 3D- Tic-Tac-Toe CX2618 U 2 BASIC Programming CX2620 R 4 Video Olympics CX2621 C 2 Breakout CX2622 C 2 Homerun CX2623 C 2 Basketball CX2624 C 2 Football CX2625 C 2 Minature Golf CX2626 U 2 Human Cannonball CX2627 U 2 Bowling CX2628 C 2 Sky Diver CX2629 U 2 Circus Atari CX2630 C 4 Superman CX2631 C 4 Space Invaders CX2632 C 4 Night Driver CX2633 C 2 Golf CX2634 C 2 Maze Craze CX2635 U 4 Video Checkers CX2636 R 4 Dodge 'Em CX2637 U 4 Missile Command CX2638 C 4 Othello CX2639 R 2 Surround CX2641 C 2 A Game of Concentration CX2642 C 2 Code Breaker CX2643 U 2 Flag Capture CX2644 U 2 Video Chess CX2645 U 4 Video Pinball CX2648 U 4 Asteroids CX2649 C 8 Blackjack CX2651 R 2 Casino CX2652 U 4 Slot Machine CX2653 R 2 Math Gran Prix CX2658 C 4 Basic Math CX2661 C 2 Hangman CX2662 U 4 Brain Games CX2664 U 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LatchKeyKid Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 This recent video interview by GenX with Gary Kitchen (creator of the Donkey Kong port) answers a similar question at about the 9 min mark. He estimated that it was about a 50-75 cent increase to go from 4k to 8k in terms of cartridge cost so I'd assume that 2k to 4k would be less than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitanClassic Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 (edited) Bill of Material cost reductions are a huge deal, especially when you are manufacturing 500k-1 million units. Where I worked, the EE and ME cold earn major bonuses for cutting even small costs from the manufacture of our products, and they only sold in the 100k. $0.50 in 1983 money is actually about $800k - $1.6 million when dealing with those volumes. That enough to employ a couple dozen engineers. When making consumer products, every penny counts. Edited May 11 by CapitanClassic 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergun Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 While most of the analysis of this topic over the years has indeed been mostly accurate, comparing the cost from 2K to 4K is NOT the same as 4K to 8K. A 2K to 4K upgrade would have been much cheaper than the latter. Reason being the boards used by Atari inside the carts required little (if any?) modification and/or upgrade when populated by a 4K mask rom instead of a 2K mask rom. While when Atari jumped to 8K the entire structure and layout and size of the PCB was modified. And surely that was more expensive. So while it was still overall more expensive to produce a 4K game versus 2K, it was a smaller jump. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfriendly Posted May 11 Author Share Posted May 11 (edited) I was thinking that when the system first launched in 1977 that the difference from 2K to 4K had to be pretty substantial. The first three games released that were 4K were Casino and Hangman in 1978. I think Superman was the next one released but I'm not positive about that. I didn't locate any information on how much these games retailed for when they came out. I could see Atari asking for more money for Superman but I don't know about the other two games. I was surprised at how many of Activision's early games were only 2K. Edited May 11 by bigfriendly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Living Room Arcade Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 15 hours ago, bigfriendly said: Have any of you ever come across this information over the years? I'm sure a title could be missing but here is a list and I think it covers most of the early releases from Atari up to 1980 and possibly some of 1981. ROM Combat CX2601 C 2 Air-Sea Battle CX2602 U 2 Star Ship CX2603 R 2 Space War CX2604 U 2 Outlaw CX2605 U 2 Slot Racers CX2606 U 2 Canyon Bomber CX2607 U 2 Warlords CX2610 U 4 Indy 500 CX2611 U 2 Street Racer CX2612 U 2 Adventure CX2613 C 4 Pele's Soccer CX2616 C 4 Backgammon CX2617 U 4 3D- Tic-Tac-Toe CX2618 U 2 BASIC Programming CX2620 R 4 Video Olympics CX2621 C 2 Breakout CX2622 C 2 Homerun CX2623 C 2 Basketball CX2624 C 2 Football CX2625 C 2 Minature Golf CX2626 U 2 Human Cannonball CX2627 U 2 Bowling CX2628 C 2 Sky Diver CX2629 U 2 Circus Atari CX2630 C 4 Superman CX2631 C 4 Space Invaders CX2632 C 4 Night Driver CX2633 C 2 Golf CX2634 C 2 Maze Craze CX2635 U 4 Video Checkers CX2636 R 4 Dodge 'Em CX2637 U 4 Missile Command CX2638 C 4 Othello CX2639 R 2 Surround CX2641 C 2 A Game of Concentration CX2642 C 2 Code Breaker CX2643 U 2 Flag Capture CX2644 U 2 Video Chess CX2645 U 4 Video Pinball CX2648 U 4 Asteroids CX2649 C 8 Blackjack CX2651 R 2 Casino CX2652 U 4 Slot Machine CX2653 R 2 Math Gran Prix CX2658 C 4 Basic Math CX2661 C 2 Hangman CX2662 U 4 Brain Games CX2664 U 2 I don't know where to find the cost information, but the ROM size information I found at Hozer Video Games. (Click Come On In and then click My Personal List on the left sidebar.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 59 minutes ago, Living Room Arcade said: I don't know where to find the cost information, but the ROM size information I found at Hozer Video Games. There is a more comprehensive list from Kevtris (created 1997!). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitfall Harry Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 I suspect that today it would be cheaper to use a 4k ROM and fill only half of it with game code, rather than to use a 2K ROM, because of the much smaller supply for 2K ROMs. -Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergun Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 If you substitute eprom for mask rom in the above statement that you made, then yes, as they are more scarce, it makes sense. But I don’t even think it would be possible to produce (let alone mass produce) a 2 Kb mask rom in the present day anyway. And likely has been the case for many years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitfall Harry Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 5 hours ago, Supergun said: If you substitute eprom for mask rom in the above statement that you made, then yes, as they are more scarce, it makes sense. But I don’t even think it would be possible to produce (let alone mass produce) a 2 Kb mask rom in the present day anyway. And likely has been the case for many years now. Could you elaborate on this? It sounds pretty interesting, but I am not quite sure what you are saying. If they could make a 2K ROM 45 years ago, what the heck happened that makes it impossible to make one today? -Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergun Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 It probably wouldn’t be “impossible” to manufacture a 2 Kb rom chip in 2024, but it would likely be so prohibitively expensive, that no one would care to do it. There’s a parabola curve when it comes to most (if not all) mass produced items. Items which did not exist, were invented, went mainstream, became outdated, got replaced, and then faded away into obscurity. The technology which was utilized, including the availability of the parts and materials which were used, as well as the production lines which were in place, are no longer in existence. During its peak, dozens of manufacturers were producing 2kb chips. They were plentiful and “relatively” cheap at the time because of this. But even the very last batch of 2kb chips mass produced were likely manufactured over 30 years ago. All of the equipment used has long since been discarded, destroyed, or repurposed. So the start up costs alone which would be involved in finding a company or even a person willing to start the process from scratch would be astronomical. And there would be no money in it for them. Try to imagine asking JVC or BASF to manufacture a small run of blank VHS cassettes in 2024. Assuming they even have someone still on staff who even knows what materials are needed and knows how to do it, they would then have to source these materials, design and create new molds, build from scratch the entire assembly line all over again, etc. The price of just 1 blank VHS cassette would be like $100,000 to cover there start up costs as well as parts and labor. Maybe, if they manufactured 1,000 cassettes, they could get the price down to $10,000 each. But of course, at their peak, bran new blank VHS cassettes could be purchased for like $2 or $3 each. The age of through hole DIP package integrated circuit technology is in the past now and almost extinct. Micro SMD or mini surface mount technology has taken over as the norm. Even the largest commercially available EPROMs which were 32 megs in size are no longer manufactured. SD memory cards and USB sticks are only sold now in the gigabytes rather then megabytes. And hard drives are now probably all in the terabyte ranges now. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitfall Harry Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 18 minutes ago, Supergun said: It probably wouldn’t be “impossible” to manufacture a 2 Kb rom chip in 2024, but it would likely be so prohibitively expensive, that no one would care to do it. There’s a parabola curve when it comes to most (if not all) mass produced items. Items which did not exist, were invented, went mainstream, became outdated, got replaced, and then faded away into obscurity. The technology which was utilized, including the availability of the parts and materials which were used, as well as the production lines which were in place, are no longer in existence. During its peak, dozens of manufacturers were producing 2kb chips. They were plentiful and “relatively” cheap at the time because of this. But even the very last batch of 2kb chips mass produced were likely manufactured over 30 years ago. All of the equipment used has long since been discarded, destroyed, or repurposed. So the start up costs alone which would be involved in finding a company or even a person willing to start the process from scratch would be astronomical. And there would be no money in it for them. Try to imagine asking JVC or BASF to manufacture a small run of blank VHS cassettes in 2024. Assuming they even have someone still on staff who even knows what materials are needed and knows how to do it, they would then have to source these materials, design and create new molds, build from scratch the entire assembly line all over again, etc. The price of just 1 blank VHS cassette would be like $100,000 to cover there start up costs as well as parts and labor. Maybe, if they manufactured 1,000 cassettes, they could get the price down to $10,000 each. But of course, at their peak, bran new blank VHS cassettes could be purchased for like $2 or $3 each. The age of through hole DIP package integrated circuit technology is in the past now and almost extinct. Micro SMD or mini surface mount technology has taken over as the norm. Even the largest commercially available EPROMs which were 32 megs in size are no longer manufactured. SD memory cards and USB sticks are only sold now in the gigabytes rather then megabytes. And hard drives are now probably all in the terabyte ranges now. That's an excellent explanation. Thanks! -Ben 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfriendly Posted May 12 Author Share Posted May 12 1 hour ago, Supergun said: It probably wouldn’t be “impossible” to manufacture a 2 Kb rom chip in 2024, but it would likely be so prohibitively expensive, that no one would care to do it. There’s a parabola curve when it comes to most (if not all) mass produced items. Items which did not exist, were invented, went mainstream, became outdated, got replaced, and then faded away into obscurity. The technology which was utilized, including the availability of the parts and materials which were used, as well as the production lines which were in place, are no longer in existence. During its peak, dozens of manufacturers were producing 2kb chips. They were plentiful and “relatively” cheap at the time because of this. But even the very last batch of 2kb chips mass produced were likely manufactured over 30 years ago. All of the equipment used has long since been discarded, destroyed, or repurposed. So the start up costs alone which would be involved in finding a company or even a person willing to start the process from scratch would be astronomical. And there would be no money in it for them. Try to imagine asking JVC or BASF to manufacture a small run of blank VHS cassettes in 2024. Assuming they even have someone still on staff who even knows what materials are needed and knows how to do it, they would then have to source these materials, design and create new molds, build from scratch the entire assembly line all over again, etc. The price of just 1 blank VHS cassette would be like $100,000 to cover there start up costs as well as parts and labor. Maybe, if they manufactured 1,000 cassettes, they could get the price down to $10,000 each. But of course, at their peak, bran new blank VHS cassettes could be purchased for like $2 or $3 each. The age of through hole DIP package integrated circuit technology is in the past now and almost extinct. Micro SMD or mini surface mount technology has taken over as the norm. Even the largest commercially available EPROMs which were 32 megs in size are no longer manufactured. SD memory cards and USB sticks are only sold now in the gigabytes rather then megabytes. And hard drives are now probably all in the terabyte ranges now. I agree this is a excellent post. After reading it an example of a long since dead and discarded technology that I imagine most never dreamed would ever reappear popped into my mind. Vinal records. I wonder how much was spent to set up the assembly lines again to start pressing records? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 On 5/10/2024 at 11:27 PM, CapitanClassic said: Bill of Material cost reductions are a huge deal, especially when you are manufacturing 500k-1 million units. Where I worked, the EE and ME cold earn major bonuses for cutting even small costs from the manufacture of our products, and they only sold in the 100k. $0.50 in 1983 money is actually about $800k - $1.6 million when dealing with those volumes. That enough to employ a couple dozen engineers. When making consumer products, every penny counts. But what if you could pass the extra cost onto consumers, which in the case of popular games like Pac-Man or Donkey Kong, I'd argue that you easily could? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitanClassic Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 20 minutes ago, zzip said: But what if you could pass the extra cost onto consumers, which in the case of popular games like Pac-Man or Donkey Kong, I'd argue that you easily could? You could…, but with Prime lending rates of the early 1980s in the 20%-15% range, do you really want $1.6 million stuck in product sitting in warehouses rather than invested in anything else? Also, consumers are very price conscious, it took years for them to switch from $49.99 to $59.99 (and it likely should be higher. Micr-transactions and DLC have kept it from raising further). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 53 minutes ago, CapitanClassic said: You could…, but with Prime lending rates of the early 1980s in the 20%-15% range, do you really want $1.6 million stuck in product sitting in warehouses rather than invested in anything else? Yeah those popular games should sell briskly and not sit around in warehouses, unless you over-produce, but if you did, I heard there was cheap 'warehouse' space in Alamogordo NM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Climber Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 On 5/12/2024 at 1:23 AM, bigfriendly said: I agree this is a excellent post. After reading it an example of a long since dead and discarded technology that I imagine most never dreamed would ever reappear popped into my mind. Vinal records. I wonder how much was spent to set up the assembly lines again to start pressing records? I would guess vinyl records never really stopped being produced completely. The demand definitely dropped but I think (especially in othe countries) maybe the demand was enough to keep some kind of production rolling. I also think whats needed to produce records is a little more obtainable for the average person (based on the amount of "homebrew" record makers out there) I honestly have no idea though, just guessing 😅 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+KaeruYojimbo Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 On 5/11/2024 at 11:23 PM, bigfriendly said: I agree this is a excellent post. After reading it an example of a long since dead and discarded technology that I imagine most never dreamed would ever reappear popped into my mind. Vinal records. I wonder how much was spent to set up the assembly lines again to start pressing records? Vinyl records never went away. 7" singles in particular were popular with indie bands through the 90's and 00's. I remember seeing ads for at least a couple of different companies that would press records for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfriendly Posted May 14 Author Share Posted May 14 5 hours ago, KaeruYojimbo said: Vinyl records never went away. 7" singles in particular were popular with indie bands through the 90's and 00's. I remember seeing ads for at least a couple of different companies that would press records for you. I didn't know that. I only recently started seeing them in regular stores like Wal-Mart. I wish I had kept all of mine from years ago. I had several dozen albums from the 80s including Def Leppard, Duran Duran and Van Halen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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