AliExpress RetroTink Equivalent 2x Scaler with HDMI Output

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, pseudografx said:

Btw. one other issue with both RetroScaler and RetroTink 2x Mini is that sometimes when changing Display List the upscaler loses sync and the image signal is lost for a moment. On some TVs/monitors it makes the screen to turn off and on, causing up to a few seconds of not displaying anything. This occurs with my 8-bit and my 2600 in some games/demos. As far as I know, this issue is fixed on the RetroTink 5x Pro (and 4K), but those are pretty expensive.

I haven't noticed it in my tests. Can you recall what program(s) would do this?

 

1 hour ago, Beeblebrox said:

Nice to see it being put through it's paces in this thread though. IIRC I paid between £55 and £70 for it in 2021. Build quality and output, etc was pretty good from what I recall.

Yeah I feel the same way as you on the build quality and output using an NTSC S-Video signal as the input. Not so sure about the color choice for the case, kinda gives it that 'toy' look, although I've seen far worse.

[pseudografx]

2 minutes ago, mytek said:

I haven't noticed it in my tests. Can you recall what program(s) would do this?

 

On the 800 I saw it in the demo Behold. And on the 2600 it's quite frequent, e.g. with Mr. Run and Jump.

[+mytek]

4 minutes ago, pseudografx said:

On the 800 I saw it in the demo Behold. And on the 2600 it's quite frequent, e.g. with Mr. Run and Jump.

Thanks I grabbed it from HERE. I'll give it a try later today.

 

EDIT: Don't have a 2600.

[Beeblebrox]

9 minutes ago, mytek said:

Yeah I feel the same way as you on the build quality and output using an NTSC S-Video signal as the input. Not so sure about the color choice for the case, kinda gives it that 'toy' look, although I've seen far worse.

it could be worse!!

 

[+Larry]

Nice thread, @mytek.  Couldn't resist buying one on Aliexpress today. 

[+mytek]

I tried to run the Behold Demo and discovered it was apparently made to work with PAL systems only, which I currently don't have any of my Atari systems setup like that. And I'm too lazy to swap out chips and crystals.

 

I kinda suspect that the problem @pseudografx was describing is just another aspect of PAL incompatibility with the RetroScaler 2x. If someone has an NTSC file they want me to test, I would be more than happy to

[+MrFish]

9 minutes ago, mytek said:

If someone has an NTSC file they want me to test, I would be more than happy to

Do you have a way to test out Space Harrier? It's available as a cartridge ROM/CAR only; so, it will work with an AVG, etc., or on a 1 MB Atarimax flash cart.

 

It's uses screen flipping, which could pose a problem for some video boxes.

 

Space Harrier (2018).car

Space Harrier [Atarimax 1MB] (2018).rom

 

[+mytek]

5 hours ago, MrFish said:

Do you have a way to test out Space Harrier? It's available as a cartridge ROM/CAR only; so, it will work with an AVG, etc., or on a 1 MB Atarimax flash cart.

 

It's uses screen flipping, which could pose a problem for some video boxes.

 

Space Harrier (2018).car 1 MB · 1 download

Space Harrier [Atarimax 1MB] (2018).rom 1 MB · 1 download

 

I have this abbreviated version that'll work from SDrive. I'll give that a try tomorrow.

 

Space Harrier.atr

[+MrFish]

4 hours ago, mytek said:

I have this abbreviated version that'll work from SDrive. I'll give that a try tomorrow.

Ah, yeah, I forgot about the old Stage 1 demo/beta. That should suffice.

 

[+mytek]

I'm not 100% sure what we are looking for glitch-wise, but to me this game appears to be working properly after being upscaled by the RetroScaler 2x on an NTSC system.

 

 

[+MrFish]

1 hour ago, mytek said:

I'm not 100% sure what we are looking for glitch-wise

What you want to see is a constant blended image of the two screens that are being flipped back and forth between. The blended image can have some flickering to it, but it should be at a constant rate and never get to the point of displaying the odd or even screen more often than the other.

 

1 hour ago, mytek said:

but to me this game appears to be working properly after being upscaled by the RetroScaler 2x on an NTSC system.

Based on the video, it doesn't look right to me. It looks like you're getting black objects sometimes, and also getting green objects (and other objects) that are taking on the same colors as the background -- rather than the background color blended with black, which would give you darker shades of the same colors.

 

So, I'm seeing stuff like this.

 

 

 

And this... Notice how the bushes appear in the exact same color as one of the background colors (dark green).

 

 

When it should be looking more like this... Notice how the bushes appear a different color than either background color (dark green blended with black, for a darker green than either background color).

 

 

[Edit]

So, it appears to be locking onto even or odd screens at different times -- in other words, skipping one or the other of the two screens that are needed to make the blended image.

 

[pseudografx]

20 hours ago, mytek said:

I tried to run the Behold Demo and discovered it was apparently made to work with PAL systems only, which I currently don't have any of my Atari systems setup like that. And I'm too lazy to swap out chips and crystals.

 

I kinda suspect that the problem @pseudografx was describing is just another aspect of PAL incompatibility with the RetroScaler 2x. If someone has an NTSC file they want me to test, I would be more than happy to

I'll try to find another example that is NTSC-compatible.

[+mytek]

27 minutes ago, MrFish said:

What you want to see is a constant blended image of the two screens that are being flipped back and forth between. The blended image can have some flickering to it, but it should be at a constant rate and never get to the point of displaying the odd or even screen more often than the other.

 

Based on the video, it doesn't look right to me. It looks like you're getting black objects sometimes, and also getting green objects (and other objects) that are taking on the same colors as the background -- rather than the background color blended with black, which would give you darker shades of the same colors.

 

So, I'm seeing stuff like this.

 

 

 

And this... Notice how the bushes appear in the exact same color as one of the background colors (dark green).

 

 

When it should be looking more like this... Notice how the bushes appear a different color than either background color (dark green blended with black, for a darker green than either background color).

 

 

[Edit]

So, it appears to be locking onto even or odd screens at different times -- in other words, skipping one or the other of the two screens that are needed to make the blended image.

 

That's good that you chimed in, since I totally missed that aspect. Could be for the same reason that the 480i programs were not 100% either.

 

I just played it again because I don't remember seeing black rocks or vegetation missing any detail and/or being the same color as the background. And... guess what, to my naked eye everything appears to be OK. So I took my GoPro that I used for shooting the video, and aimed it at the screen while playing the game and simultaneously watched both the VIZO connected to the RetroScaler 2x and also the GoPro's built-in monitor. Sure enough I'd occasionally see black rocks on the GoPro, but not on my VIZIO, as well as a few of those other anomalies you mentioned.

 

Its my GoPro, or at least the way it's presently set-up that can't always lock into the Atari generated interlace

 

So I think the RetroScaler 2x is doing fine 👍

[+MrFish]

2 minutes ago, mytek said:

Its my GoPro, or at least the way it's presently set-up that can't always lock into the Atari generated interlace

Yeah, I figured you'd go back and compare your live experience to the video recording and see if there was some problem there. I had a feeling it might be the issue also; that's why I said, "based on your video".

 

Anyway, good to know it's fine with it. Seems to be a decent device (especially at the cost), for a person that just needs to use it for NTSC video.

 

[+MrFish]

BTW, I've seen the same problems in many videos of Space Harrier on YouTube -- I think mainly using emulation where they haven't activated Frame Blending. Unfortunately, these videos make Space Harrier look terrible, even though the commentator is raving about how great it is.

 

[+MrFish]

The ironic thing about Space Harrier is that it was developed on/for a PAL 50 Hz system; but screen flipping always looks much better on NTSC -- because of the higher rate. So, it looks really good on NTSC systems.

 

Whenever you hear people talk about developing a game using screen flipping for more colors, people using PAL 50 Hz systems start groaning.

 

It's a highly effective technique on NTSC systems. NTSC is just enough faster refresh to make it work without having noticeable flicker. I think it's generally best on CRT's too, because they tend to hold each frame just slightly longer than an LCD; so, you get some good blending.

 

[+mytek]

42 minutes ago, MrFish said:

BTW, I've seen the same problems in many videos of Space Harrier on YouTube -- I think mainly using emulation where they haven't activated Frame Blending. Unfortunately, these videos make Space Harrier look terrible, even though the commentator is raving about how great it is.

 

When the game ends it leaves a static image of where you last died on screen, so I thought I'd do some other checks while seeing this. First I just plugged straight into the S-Video input on the VIZIO and I do see a variant. I can now see horizontal lines pretty distinctly in the vegetation and a few other objects, something that I wasn't seeing over the RetroScaler, which blended it, thus eliminating those lines and creating solid colors. I went back to the HDMI output from the RetroScaler and tried the smooth button, which did have a very, very minor effect on the image, but no lines appeared.

 

Plugged directly into S-Video input on VIZIO monitor (I think it was manufactured in 2007).

 

So apparently the RetroScaler 2x is doing some frame blending, whereas my VIZIO is not (at least when in AV mode).

 

However all is not perfect, and I think this might relate to what @pseudografx was talking about. When going through the RetroScaler, every once in a while I see a flash across the screen and just for a split second it's like either the brightness or contrast got bumped. It only happens when nothing is moving. Once the game is in play I don't see it happening anymore. Mind you this doesn't happen at all with non-interlaced programs and games. So it definitely relates to the forced interlace mode in the Atari, but only when the display is static. And to complicate things a bit more, it's only happening on my VIZIO monitor. When I connected to my 55" more modern LG, no more flashes when on a static display.

 

I think all in all this RetroScaler 2x box is doing the right stuff under NTSC, and produces a very clean and apparently well blended color image, even coming from something a bit weird like 480i out of the Atari using magic dust.

[+MrFish]

Another game that uses screen flipping to good effect is Kangaroo. I think it also uses sprite flickering.

 

[SenorRossie]

On 5/16/2024 at 4:51 AM, dgdgagdae said:

Is there any device like this that can take an RF input?

We had positive results from these relatively cheap chinese rf to hdmi converters:

We were impressed by the fact these were able to even pick up the signal from the earlier devices like the pong, video pinball and stunt cycle consoles, as well as the 400 computers we tested them with. YMMV though.

Edited May 18 by SenorRossie

[bfollowell]

I've been wanting an upscaler that would take composite and S-Video as inputs and, while I really like the looks of, and the reviews of the RetroTink devices, those prices leave a lot to be desired. I'd been considering a composite/S-Video add-on for my OSSC, but this has even better priced and sounds like it works pretty well. I think I'm going to have to pick one of these up and give it a try. Thanks for the information!

 

[+mytek]

20 hours ago, MrFish said:

Another game that uses screen flipping to good effect is Kangaroo. I think it also uses sprite flickering.

 

It's playable, but I'm seeing reddish colored pixels to the left of the brown areas which shouldn't be there.

It happens on all game screens.

 

The picture quality is much better without the fuzziness of what I captured. So the red pixels are well defined, and the brown area is a clean solid color.

[+MrFish]

34 minutes ago, mytek said:

It's playable, but I'm seeing reddish colored pixels to the left of the brown areas which shouldn't be there.

It happens on all game screens.

 

The picture quality is much better without the fuzziness of what I captured. So the red pixels are well defined, and the brown area is a clean solid color.

It's kinda common to get some bleeding between areas of certain color combinations; but that's pretty highly pronounced and wide, compared to what I've ever seen. I see a little on my CRT, but it's not red (looks more gray to greenish brown), and not nearly so pronounced (unless I turn up the brightness a lot). It doesn't have anything to do the the screen flipping, though; because those areas are constant on both screens being flipped.

 

[+MrFish]

2 hours ago, mytek said:

It's playable, but I'm seeing reddish colored pixels to the left of the brown areas which shouldn't be there.

What does it look like with your s-video connection?

 

[+mytek]

6 hours ago, MrFish said:

What does it look like with your s-video connection?

 

I had company today that arrived just after my HDMI test, so I wasn't able to proceed. I figured on doing that test tomorrow. Be very interesting to see how that goes.

[+mytek]

Tried Kangaroo straight over S-Video on my VIZIO monitor and red lines are still quite visible. I also did a quick standard definition capture to make sure this was attributable to my monitor, and it wasn't.

 

 

Funny thing is, when I looked at examples on YouTube they were all over the map as far as color was concerned. But I did find one that is very similar to what I'm seeing (3rd one down).

 

 

Going back to HDMI output with the RetroScaler 2x, and playing it for a bit, didn't reveal any other issues.