IGN ranks the Atari 7800 over the Sega Master System! Do you agree?

[phoenixdownita]

4 minutes ago, CPUWIZ said:

 

Yes, I've known Shawn for a looong time. ♿

Meant the choice of wonderboy in specific been good on sms.

[CPUWIZ]

30 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

Meant the choice of wonderboy in specific been good on sms.

 

I know it's one of his favs on the system, at least I am pretty sure.  I think I have probably called him every other name in the book already, here and in private, but not Wonderboy. LOL

[roots.genoa]

9 hours ago, CapitanClassic said:

It seems they put in highest regard, how much of an impact the console had on the industry.

Then the SMS should rank higher...

[CapitanClassic]

5 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

Then the SMS should rank higher...

At position? For what reason?

[+TwentySixHundred]

The SMS was highly popular outside the US, so for a comparison worldwide and in its hey day, the SMS was iconic. In this day and age with an internet world full of new homebrew, along with fan communities, i do feel the 7800 now takes the win. The 7800 has finally had the chance to shine, where as software development isn't a financial gamble anymore.

 

Overall everyone has their own top 25 list that are different from the next. We are lucky nowadays that we can enjoy them all 😊

[Razzie.P]

17 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

You are wrong on the Internet again ???

 

16 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

You can't be wrong on the internet

 

Where was he wrong the other time?  I feel like I need to reply to it with a gif of disappointment or laughing at him, not sure which.  One of these, likely.

 

 

[Flyindrew]

I have been an Atari fanboy since 1979 but.....during the 1986-1990 time period SMS holds a clear cut advantage over the 7800. 

 

 

[roots.genoa]

7 hours ago, CapitanClassic said:

At position? For what reason?

For the reason the 7800 had zero impact on the industry, while the SMS had a small one.

[Giles N]

Calculating actual impact on the industry is very difficult.

 

I believe that SMS wins both impact (influence) and being overall better to have had at home BITD, the in-Market period (just more quality games to get. Moreover, - if longstanding ‘cult’ status matter, the article is from 2009, and actually getting to have a ‘solid’ 7800 homebrew/aftermarket library, have taken time - Crystal Quest being 2014, Rikki and Vikki 2018, even though the build-up seems gradual)

 

I believe the 7800 could have achieved equal standing, if Atari had supported it much better (including securing 3rd party developers both as to hardware and software developement)

 

Seeing that the later batch of games (1989/90) got quite solid, and seeing that the quality of the unreleased prototypes: Sirius, Plutos, Klax … it wouldn’t be difficult to imagine a scenario where this level of quality had been achieved by 1988, and all games were given Pokey sound chips.

 

This would of course only have possibly happened, if Atari had prioritized staying ahead in the competition with lots of focus and dedication (Nintendo didn’t ‘block’ everything, moreover you can beg, bribe, deal, buy and work hard, to get novel games designed for your system), contra self-entanglement in over-speculations as to release-dates of the various consoles.

Edited June 7 by Giles N

[Giles N]

On 6/6/2024 at 11:45 PM, johannesmutlu said:

a few side scrolling platformers, but all it got very late in it’s lifespan was scrapyard  dog wich was a not so great platformer

Yeah, just imagine what it could’ve been if it had more cartoony backdrops with more chuncky colors, and swapping the dorky-looking hero for a charming & cute-looking character…

 

Spoiler

And … fixing several unfair platform jumps, and have ‘flying boots’ as extras to buy, include a big boss fight at the end and throw in some Pokey sound…

…why… why-oh-why Atari!!? No-wait, forget it - that short-term-revenue-and-minimum-cost focus; works everytime to not-get-canonized… 

 

Edited June 7 by Giles N

[CapitanClassic]

3 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

For the reason the 7800 had zero impact on the industry, while the SMS had a small one.

Sure, the SMS is the 16th most impactful console, before the 7800's 17th place.

[roots.genoa]

7 hours ago, CapitanClassic said:

Sure, the SMS is the 16th most impactful console, before the 7800's 17th place.

Why not? It makes more sense than SMS at 20.

[Shawn]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:40 PM, CPUWIZ said:

 

Yes, I've known Shawn for a looong time. ♿

 

Only 20 years.  

[Maztr_0n]

i'm gonna personally say i'm not sure if i thijnk the 7800 should be ranked above it, but not much lower, SMS had a crazy success story in Europe and Brazil, and it was kind of a symbiotic relationship between it and the game gear, which for the time usually worked, and it kinda did for the most part.

7800 is underrated but to me as a US American, so is the SMS, i'd put the 7800 right below the SMS but no lower!

[zzip]

On 6/7/2024 at 7:29 PM, Giles N said:

This would of course only have possibly happened, if Atari had prioritized staying ahead in the competition with lots of focus and dedication (Nintendo didn’t ‘block’ everything, moreover you can beg, bribe, deal, buy and work hard, to get novel games designed for your system), contra self-entanglement in over-speculations as to release-dates of the various consoles.

Consider that Atari went from the undisputed king of the videogame market that even Nintendo was afraid of (they offered NES to Atari because they didn't want to compete against them) to Nintendo dominating the market and locking up third party developers in just a few short years.    Atari basically let Nintendo take the crown without much of a fight.

 

The business climate of 83/84 where Atari was losing a ton of money followed by its sale to people more interested in the computer side than the games side is really what did the Atari games business in.    I think if the sale didn't happen and Atari successfully reorganized under Warner or if they sold to a buyer more committed to the videogame side were the best chances Atari would have had of continuing their game dominance.   Another possibility would have been had they agreed to release the Atari NES, but failed to deliver it on time (like the 7800) due to the upheaval of 84.   That resulting legal mess might have frustrated Nintendo's entrance in the NA game market.

Edited June 10 by zzip

[+Intellivision Master]

I have the 7800.  So, I voted for it.  I never had the SMS.  But I did play some of the games via emulation.  

[+GoldenWheels]

Bros, one thing I will say about 7800 guys....we are a realistic bunch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing like the Jaguar guys....

[KrunchyTC]

I voted 7800 out of principle.

[Giles N]

4 hours ago, zzip said:

Nintendo dominating the market and locking up third party developers in just a few short years. 

 

4 hours ago, zzip said:

Atari was losing a ton of money followed by its sale to people more interested in the computer side than the games side is really what did the Atari games business in. 

In that situation, I believe it would’ve been smart to secure as many computer-to-console versions as possible (since it would probably be less likely to be bought up as exclusives-to-Nintendo).

If Atari had partnered with computer-games devs., - securing good versions for Atari-8 bit consoles/5200 and the 7800, I think they could’ve come out of it much better than the 69  5200-titles and 58-60 7800-titles, during those years (1983-1991)

 

It may have been a partnership, not just Atari licensing and getting the revenue.

 

But more a strategy to secure enough good titles justifying people getting the 7800.

 

Providing Pokeys for the games developed, how would 7800 versions of I.O., Black Lamp, Monty on the Run 1 and 2, Last Ninja 1 & 2, Turrican 1 & 2, etc, look and sound like on the 7800?

Yes, and many of Elites (later) games weren’t released for the NES as far I know, so the 7800 could’ve gotten novel/made-from-scratch versions of Beyond the Ice Palace, Overlander, ThunderCats (?), SuperTrux, Space Harrier (perhaps, if not an exclusive to SMS). Some would say not all of these games were great on the C64/Spectrum/Amstrad etc, but with the console-build-up of the 7800, they could perhaps have become the best (8-bit) versions of these games.

Edited June 10 by Giles N

[zzip]

16 minutes ago, Giles N said:

But more a strategy to secure enough good titles justifying people getting the 7800.

 

Providing Pokeys for the games developed, how would 7800 versions of I.O., Black Lamp, Monty on the Run 1 and 2, Last Ninja 1 & 2, Turrican 1 & 2, etc, look and sound like on the 7800?

Problem #1 was Atari had 3 third-generation consoles-   5200, 7800 and XEGS.   They should have only had one as this splits the fan base and developer resources.   Third-party developers want a single platform with large userbases, not multiple platforms with a small userbase each.  But Atari at that point was thinking extremely short-term.

 

The 7800 shouldn't have been a thing,  at least not for 1984 release.   Maybe they replace the 5200 by 1987 with a console with a REAL sound-chip and better graphics than the 7800 we got.   Maybe the 5200 should have been more XEgs like in the first place for easy A8 ports.

 

 

[Giles N]

35 minutes ago, zzip said:

Problem #1 was Atari had 3 third-generation consoles-   5200, 7800 and XEGS.   They should have only had one as this splits the fan base and developer resources.   Third-party developers want a single platform with large userbases, not multiple platforms with a small userbase each.  But Atari at that point was thinking extremely short-term.

 

The 7800 shouldn't have been a thing,  at least not for 1984 release.   Maybe they replace the 5200 by 1987 with a console with a REAL sound-chip and better graphics than the 7800 we got.   Maybe the 5200 should have been more XEgs like in the first place for easy A8 ports.

 

 

I agree the 8-bit line-up + the 7800 feels cluttered or like too many choices. (For 8-bit, they could have like one core-console, which could be expanded to home-computer via add-ons)

 

If the 7800 could’ve seen release as early as 1984 for a reasonable price, I think that + making later production-lines come with inbuilt Pokeys, or just instruct and provide the devs. everywhere to both have and use Pokey sound as standard, would’ve given them a hardware head-start compared to Nintendo.

Edited June 10 by Giles N

[Trebor]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

Problem #1 was Atari had 3 third-generation consoles-   5200, 7800 and XEGS.   They should have only had one as this splits the fan base and developer resources.   Third-party developers want a single platform with large userbases, not multiple platforms with a small userbase each.  But Atari at that point was thinking extremely short-term.

 

The 7800 shouldn't have been a thing,  at least not for 1984 release.   Maybe they replace the 5200 by 1987 with a console with a REAL sound-chip and better graphics than the 7800 we got.   Maybe the 5200 should have been more XEgs like in the first place for easy A8 ports.

It's understood, you're a big 8-bit/5200 fan, but these kind of posts became old years ago.

 

Atari 5200 was released as a second generation console in response to the Intellivision.  The Intellivision, along with the 5200 and the other second generation console, ColecoVision, share having a built-in keypad controller scheme as default.  The Atari 5200 was discontinued in 1984.

 

Having the 7800 fully released late to market in 1986, due to financial/contractual issues with GCC, and then releasing the XEGS in 1987 was detrimental.  Atari was still trying to milk its old computer line rereleasing the same hardware in a new shell in more cost saving measures.  By the end of 1987, NES was a juggernaut in the US, and nothing was stopping it or coming close.

 

The problem is not with the 7800 console, but the lack of resources that went behind supporting it.  The console, by design, was intended to have audio chips on the carts.  Sound chips such as the Minnie which would have added less than $2.00 to the total price of the cart.  The graphics speak for themselves, especially when we see the magnificent homebrews released for it, and not the half-baked cheapest most rushed titles they could get to market.  When even a fraction of the mappers, compared to other third generation consoles such as the NES received, are provided to the 7800, we see it more than adequate on the games it can deliver such as Rikki & Vikki, E.X.O., Attack of the PETSCII Robots, and more.

[zzip]

1 minute ago, Giles N said:

If the 7800 could’ve seen release as early as 1984 for reasonable price, I think that + making later production-lines come with inbuilt Pokeys, or just instruct and provide the devs. everywhere to both have snd use Pokey sound as standard, would’ve given them a hardware head-start compared to Nintendo.

Moore's Law was in full effect back then.   Both the NES and 7800 were designed with 1983 tech.   SMS was designed with 1985 tech which is why it can outperform both.   Imagine if they gave the 5200 a full generation lifespan of 4 or 5 years and released a successor based on 1986 tech?   We wouldn't even be talking about whether it should have a Pokey,  there were much better soundchips on the market by then,  Atari had their own Amy soundchip in development.

 

It would have been a system that blows NES away.    Of course we know Nintendo is great at making lesser hardware shine,  so Atari would still need to up their software games,  but if they had handled the 3rd generation better, they might still have a bigger following and be in better shape to compete.

[zzip]

26 minutes ago, Trebor said:

It's understood, you're a big 8-bit/5200 fan, but these kind of posts became old years ago.

Nope, never a 5200 fan,  yes I like the 8-bit.   But I'm more an Atari fan and wish they hadn't lost the war to Nintendo so badly

 

26 minutes ago, Trebor said:

Atari 5200 was released as a second generation console in response to the second generation console ColecoVision.

Third generation.   It was called as such at the time, as was the Colecovision.   It's only Wikipedia revisionism that puts these in the 2nd gen camp now.    It's got the same processor running the same speed as the NES,  by what logic does it belong in the same category as the Channel F?   The Colecovision is nearly identical to the 3rd gen Sega SG-1000, so why is Colecovision 2nd Gen?   There's no rhyme or reason here except for people wanting to use the crash as a dividing line after the fact.

 

26 minutes ago, Trebor said:

The problem is not with the 7800 console, but the lack of resources that went behind supporting it.  The console, by design, was intended to have audio chips on the carts.  Sound chips such as the Minnie which would have added less than $2.00 to the total price of the cart.  The graphics speak for themselves, especially when we see the magnificent homebrews released for it, and not the half-baked cheapest most rushed titles they could get to market.  When even a fraction of the mappers, compared to other third generation consoles such as the NES received, are provided to the 7800, we see it more than adequate on the games it can deliver such as Rikki & Vikki, E.X.O., Attack of the PETSCII Robots, and more.

But it's the commercial games that make or break the console and a whole series of misteps.

  it doesn't matter than you could put soundchips on the carts if nobody did it with maybe 2 exceptions.    You have a whole commercial library that sounds like crap.

  It doesn't matter if it could have better mappers if it didn't get them.

  And why should any Atari fan trust Atari with the 7800 after they got badly screwed over with the 5200?   This is a problem that everyone ignores.   But a 5200 in 82 cost $269 (over $800 in today's money),   You shell out that for a shiny new console, and you end up with a small library of games mostly rehashes of the last gen games,  before the manufacturer abandons it!   Are you REALLY going to buy the next console?    If Microsoft of Sony pulled this, it would be the videogame scandal of the century.   But consumers didn't have the internet to complains so I'm sure a lot of people quietly abandoned Atari instead.    This is why the 7800 was a huge blunder.

Edited June 10 by zzip

[Trebor]

5 hours ago, zzip said:

It doesn't matter if it could have better mappers if it didn't get them.

Your prior post is a whole series of should have been for the 5200/8-bit, but wasn't a reality.

6 hours ago, zzip said:

They should have only had one as this splits the fan base and developer resources.   Third-party developers want a single platform with large userbases, not multiple platforms with a small userbase each.  But Atari at that point was thinking extremely short-term.

 

The 7800 shouldn't have been a thing,  at least not for 1984 release.   Maybe they replace the 5200 by 1987 with a console with a REAL sound-chip and better graphics than the 7800 we got.   Maybe the 5200 should have been more XEgs like in the first place for easy A8 ports.

The reasoning, "It doesn't matter" when utilizing hypotheticals such as could have or should have statements, the (non) points are all moot, such as, "the 5200 should have been more XEGS like in the first place."  The 7800 was the reality, and the 5200 discontinued.

Quote

Third generation.   It was called as such at the time, as was the Colecovision.   It's only Wikipedia revisionism that puts these in the 2nd gen camp now.    It's got the same processor running the same speed as the NES,  by what logic does it belong in the same category as the Channel F?   The Colecovision is nearly identical to the 3rd gen Sega SG-1000, so why is Colecovision 2nd Gen?   There's no rhyme or reason here except for people wanting to use the crash as a dividing line after the fact.

My response to the numbering of generations is not my thing or even a Wiki-thing. I based it upon your placement and respective statement of the 7800 being in the third generation.  The 7800 is of the same generation/era of the NES and SMS.  You're placing the 5200 and ColecoVision in the third generation, then it places 7800, NES, SMS in the fourth.  Regardless, bringing up generations was your point, not mine.

5 hours ago, zzip said:

But it's the commercial games that make or break the console and a whole series of misteps. 

I'm not disputing the games make or break the console.  What was taken into exception is your statements that the 7800 shouldn't have been, and implying it was inadequate, due to it not having the ability to deliver even better looking and sounding titles, and more games overall.  You are 100% correct, there was a whole series of missteps.

 

A huge part of that is the 7800 was starved of resources and mostly not utilized as intended for its sound generation (Commando being the exception), and additional graphic chip capabilities, including being provided comparable cartridge hardware mappers its contemporary received.  Thankfully, there is a plethora of homebrews and their respective developers that make those, could have/should have been for the 7800, a reality for us now.