IGN ranks the Atari 7800 over the Sega Master System! Do you agree?

[roots.genoa]

16 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

Again, this is fifteen years old, more retro than the 2600 was when I was a kid.

Indeed, which might also explain why the Wii is not higher (not that I think it should, but someone mentioned it). It's always hard to rank recent stuff.

[+GoldenWheels]

2 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

The 2600 had a huge library, and innovative games were still being released in 1984 as Pitfall II, H.E.R.O., Crystal Castles, Decathlon, Mr. Do!'s Castle, and other. 

 

"who cares?"

And the 7800 was released in 1986....note I said "released as late as it was"...

 

...none of these titles were innovative by then, if they could even be considered so in 1984 (they're good games largely, but innovative? Maybe the perspective on Crystal Castles qualifies...)

 

BESIDES THE FACT that you could just KEEP YOUR 2600!!!!

 

The "success" of the 7800 certainly doesn't indicate backwards compatibility was worth....anything. Of course there is lots that went in to that....but....not many people cared about 2600 games in 1986. Frankly, as a kid, I couldn't get to the next gen fast enough.

[RevEng]

3 hours ago, GoldenWheels said:

But IMO even if released on time the 7800 backwards compatibility would have been meh as a selling feature, a big "who cares?". Released as late as it was? Almost seems comical to point to this as a real plus.

The 2600 was still in production until 1992. I recall my girlfriends brother bought a 2600 jr around the time I had an Atari ST. There were people who would still break out the old games for a quick session, even if you were personally over it.

 

 

[+GoldenWheels]

1 minute ago, RevEng said:

The 2600 was still in production until 1992. I recall my girlfriends brother a 2600 jr around the time I had an Atari ST. There were people who would still break out the old games for a quick session, even if you were personally over it.

Sure! I had a Jr and an older style (which was inherited). The Jr was marketed as a beginner/bargain system. I even still played Frostbite for a while (which is why I used it as an example...it was my fav and outlasted all 2600 games for me) after I had an XE.

 

But the idea that backwards compatibility for an older, antiquated system, on a newer, but delayed to death system, was a big deal? It's all opinion at this point but I just don't believe it was any kind of major plus in selling it. And again, though for many other reasons, it is not as if the 7800 was a success.

 

And again...you could just keep your 2600. I know some folks passed them on and that is really a nice thing (that's how I got my first 2600) but who kept the games to play,  and NOT the system?

[RevEng]

Just now, GoldenWheels said:

And again, though for many other reasons, it is not as if the 7800 was a success.

Fallacy of the Single Cause. Backward compatibility is a useful feature. Nobody claimed it was a killer app that should have saved the 7800, or any of the other consoles that later featured backward compatibility.

 

Just now, GoldenWheels said:

And again...you could just keep your 2600. I know some folks passed them on and that is really a nice thing (that's how I got my first 2600) but who kept the games to play,  and NOT the system?

TV hookups and real estate around the TV is limited. Most old consoles get packed up, and rarely unpacked, because it's a hassle. 

 

We have PS5 consoles that can play PS4, and Xbox X/S consoles that can play Xbox One, Xbox 360, and even some OG Xbox titles. You could have saved these companies a whole lot of development money if you had just warned them that nobody cares about backward compatibility.

[+GoldenWheels]

10 minutes ago, RevEng said:

Fallacy of the Single Cause. Backward compatibility is a useful feature. Nobody claimed it was a killer app that should have saved the 7800, or any of the other consoles that later featured backward compatibility.

 

TV hookups and real estate around the TV is limited. Most old consoles get packed up, and rarely unpacked, because it's a hassle. 

 

We have PS5 consoles that can play PS4, and Xbox X/S consoles that can play Xbox One, Xbox 360, and even some OG Xbox titles. You could have saved these companies a whole lot of development money if you had just warned them that nobody cares about backward compatibility.

The original post I responded to was comparing it to PS1/PS2, calling the feature a huge selling point. I would debate that for sure in regards to the 7800. Useful feature? I have no issue calling it that.

 

Your own experience in packing up the systems is the same as me getting over the games...even if that's personally how you did it, great, but it's not how all did it. RF makes daisy chaining multi systems av easier than composite hook ups. I was poor, but I did have space!

 

I'm not claiming backwards compatibility isn't a selling point now...I even already discussed how it likely got more important as the games got better, and more complex, offering more replayability. I am speaking to this specific example of 2600-7800, which happens to include the video game crash and a two year delay of the system launch that had the feature. This was not the semi-smooth road from PS1-PS2 (or PS4 to 5, or Xbox to xbox).

 

 

[NE146]

11 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

True, although you would soon be rather disappointed when comparing it to the R-Type version of the PC Engine.

 

Not at all! I remember the timeframe between buying SMS R-Type and getting the TG16 R-Type at launch being maybe 2 years give or take? Which to me felt like forever. 
 

By then, we had all already moved past even the NES/SMS anyway as it was all about the new generation Genesis and TG16 (SNES wasn’t out yet). SMS R-Type delivered the goods in its time.

Edited Tuesday at 02:16 PM by NE146

[Zoyous]

12 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

Let me show an example of the 7800's underestimated potential, it was a real home arcade system:

This looks great, but is anyone actually developing a playable R-Type for the 7800? I suppose I could mock up a few screens of Scrapyard Dog in the Master System resolution and color palette but we all want to play the game. And until developers have worked out the balancing act to have the game running from start to finish, individual images like these - while technically accurate in isolation - could be regarded as aspirational because there might be compromises necessary to keep everything within spec in the context of the entire game.

 

We also want games that play to each system's strengths. I think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I feel like a game like Geometry Wars II: Retro Evolved would be something that would be killer on the 7800 and show off its sprite pushing power and speed. But on the other hand, I don't really know it that would work - aside from the fact that the 7800 can certainly move around a lot of sprites without flickering, could it manage all the different behaviors of the many enemy types simultaneously?

[+pboland]

23 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

I remember seeing sms pads the had the screw hole “filled” with a black plastic tab and others with no hole at all.

 

Like 

vs

 

Do you happen to know which is which?

The original release controllers had the cord coming out of the right side of the controller. The thread hole in the center also came with a rubber plug in it for when you were not using the mini joystick. The mini joysticks were just something you could put in yourself. Most people lost either the rubber plug or the mini sticks. That's why you see controller with the hole in the center of the d-pad. The easiest way to know if a controller is the older design is to look for the cord coming out of the right side of the controller. These tend to be a better made controller.

[RevEng]

3 minutes ago, GoldenWheels said:

The original post I responded to was comparing it to PS1/PS2, calling the feature a huge selling point. I would debate that for sure in regards to the 7800. Useful feature? I have no issue calling it that.

 You previously called backward compatibility "buy bait for cheap parents". I'm not sure how one isn't supposed to interpret that as a pointless feature that only the cheap parents cared about. If you're in the "useful feature" camp now, I guess we're just splitting hairs. One person's "useful feature" is another person's "huge selling point".

 

3 minutes ago, GoldenWheels said:

I'm not claiming backwards compatibility isn't a selling point now...I even already discussed how it likely got more important as the games got better, and more complex, offering more replayability. I am speaking to this specific example of 2600-7800, which happens to include the video game crash and a two year delay of the system launch that had the feature. This was not the semi-smooth road from PS1-PS2.

The gameplay style between the 2600 and 7800 is actually pretty continuous, much to the detriment of the 7800's commercial success. If someone was enticed to buy the 7800, which launched with mostly arcade ports, it's not a stretch to imagine they might also want to break out their 2600 games sometimes too. As Defender2600 mentioned, those 2600 games included Pitfall II, H.E.R.O., Crystal Castles, Decathlon, Mr. Do!'s Castle. There are a lot more titles that aged well enough that could be named, including earlier ones, but the point has been made.

[+GoldenWheels]

19 minutes ago, RevEng said:

 You previously called backward compatibility "buy bait for cheap parents". I'm not sure how one isn't supposed to interpret that as a pointless feature that only the cheap parents cared about. If you're in the "useful feature" camp now, I guess we're just splitting hairs. One person's "useful feature" is another person's "huge selling point".

 

The gameplay style between the 2600 and 7800 is actually pretty continuous, much to the detriment of the 7800's commercial success. If someone was enticed to buy the 7800, which launched with mostly arcade ports, it's not a stretch to imagine they might also want to break out their 2600 games sometimes too. As Defender2600 mentioned, those 2600 games included Pitfall II, H.E.R.O., Crystal Castles, Decathlon, Mr. Do!'s Castle. There are a lot more titles that aged well enough that could be named, including earlier ones, but the point has been made.

I thought I was specifically referring to the 2600-7800 situation, if that was unclear I erred. I have never bought a system because of the feature. I did luck out that the PS3 had it, as that is when I kind of "went back in time".

 

I don't think we're splitting hairs Rev, but maybe we are....I can admit that something is a useful feature for others even if it wasn't for me, at all. Do I feel my feelings represent the consensus, general overall feeling at the time? Generally, "meh"? Yeah, I do. I think it was a perhaps small handful of players, but more parents, who valued this feature, given the fairly unique situation of the market. But heck, even as buy bait, it could be considered a "useful feature" as marketing, if it sold systems. However, for something to be a huge selling point...well, frankly, don't there have to be some huge sales to prove it? I think that is decent distinction. If we're razoring hairs, well, I'll stop.

 

I certainly don't consider it a stretch at all to think this feature was utilized by some. I am sure it was. Ironically, I rarely risk my lovely 7800 slot nowadays with a 2600 cart. Most are ok as you know, but some are so damn tight, and of course some just don't fit at all. Hey....I still play Frostbite though.

 

(I wonder if this is slightly an age difference issue too, or perhaps, who had the skin (money) in the game issue, or both. I was a kid during this period and as such was easily swayed by fancy graphics and sounds, always looking to the next gen, with no regard for the $$ my parents had spent just a few years prior. However if I was a young adult who had put my own $$ into that 2600...I'd likely not be so quick to want to move on. Things become more valuable when it is your money being spent, that is for sure.)

[+Defender_2600]

1 hour ago, NE146 said:

Not at all! I remember the timeframe between buying SMS R-Type and getting the TG16 R-Type at launch being maybe 2 years give or take? Which to me felt like forever. 

 

There should have been about a year of waiting between the two releases.

 

[KrunchyTC]

3 hours ago, Zoyous said:

This looks great, but is anyone actually developing a playable R-Type for the 7800? I suppose I could mock up a few screens of Scrapyard Dog in the Master System resolution and color palette but we all want to play the game. And until developers have worked out the balancing act to have the game running from start to finish, individual images like these - while technically accurate in isolation - could be regarded as aspirational because there might be compromises necessary to keep everything within spec in the context of the entire game.

 

We also want games that play to each system's strengths. I think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I feel like a game like Geometry Wars II: Retro Evolved would be something that would be killer on the 7800 and show off its sprite pushing power and speed. But on the other hand, I don't really know it that would work - aside from the fact that the 7800 can certainly move around a lot of sprites without flickering, could it manage all the different behaviors of the many enemy types simultaneously?

Yeah, the only way to know if games like R-Type can be done on the 7800, is to buckle down, and make it happen! I've seen so many mock ups, and experimental stuff on the 7800, but I want to see more of those projects get completed.

[RevEng]

2 hours ago, KrunchyTC said:

Yeah, the only way to know if games like R-Type can be done on the 7800, is to buckle down, and make it happen! I've seen so many mock ups, and experimental stuff on the 7800, but I want to see more of those projects get completed.

We're doing pretty well for completed games, and a good many are very impressive. I'd say we're punching well above our weight, given the actual number of 7800 consoles that were sold during it's retail life.

 

But if you're wanting to see more, get your oar in the water! 🚣‍♂️

[KrunchyTC]

18 minutes ago, RevEng said:

We're doing pretty well for completed games, and a good many are very impressive. I'd say we're punching well above our weight, given the actual number of 7800 consoles that were sold during it's retail life.

 

But if you're wanting to see more, get your oar in the water! 🚣‍♂️

Absolutely agreed, all things considered, you guys are punching well above your weight 😄 and contributing to it is the dream 😛

[+Defender_2600]

41 minutes ago, KrunchyTC said:

Absolutely agreed, all things considered, you guys are punching well above your weight 😄 and contributing to it is the dream 😛

So to start, no more "Could the 7800 handle xxxxx as well as the xxxxx?" topics, please. They attract too many mosquitoes.

[John Stamos Mullet]

8 hours ago, GoldenWheels said:

Sure! I had a Jr and an older style (which was inherited). The Jr was marketed as a beginner/bargain system. I even still played Frostbite for a while (which is why I used it as an example...it was my fav and outlasted all 2600 games for me) after I had an XE.

 

But the idea that backwards compatibility for an older, antiquated system, on a newer, but delayed to death system, was a big deal? It's all opinion at this point but I just don't believe it was any kind of major plus in selling it. And again, though for many other reasons, it is not as if the 7800 was a success.

 

And again...you could just keep your 2600. I know some folks passed them on and that is really a nice thing (that's how I got my first 2600) but who kept the games to play,  and NOT the system?

I bought the 7800 in 1987 with paper route money specifically because it had backwards compatibility for my 30ish 2600 games. 

[KrunchyTC]

50 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

So to start, no more "Could the 7800 handle xxxxx as well as the xxxxx?" topics, please. They attract too many mosquitoes.

Yeah yeah! 😛

[+Defender_2600]

7 hours ago, Zoyous said:

This looks great, but is anyone actually developing a playable R-Type for the 7800? I suppose I could mock up a few screens of Scrapyard Dog in the Master System resolution and color palette but we all want to play the game. And until developers have worked out the balancing act to have the game running from start to finish, individual images like these - while technically accurate in isolation - could be regarded as aspirational because there might be compromises necessary to keep everything within spec in the context of the entire game.

I had also attached the Dobkeratops Demo (maybe you haven't looked at it) that it surprisingly doesn't consume so much CPU (1/3 in NTSC and 60fps). This means that the 7800 Dobkeratops screen can also include the background tile graphics, while in the Master System version that screen is completely blank (black) with no tiles.

 

There are currently no plans to make the full game, but there is a proof of concept of the first level and the placeholder tile graphics can already be replaced with the graphics I showed above. I have almost all the tiles of the first level (85% complete) but unfortunately I haven't found the time to complete it yet. I also started working on some sprites that will be the same size as the arcade version and therefore won't be as small as the ones in the Master System version.

 

This is not the first time my 7800 graphics have been called ambitious or bold or just a mock up, but in truth I only show real 7800 graphics that are ready to be inserted into the code, and often I have been lucky enough to meet some genius programmers who have made them a reality. In about a decade, not a single 7800 programmer has had any issues with the graphics I have provided. And yes, once again, people underestimate the potential of the 7800. I attach another video that has already been shared publicly but to be safe I will not mention the source. As I said before the tiles and some sprites are just placeholders for now.

 

https://content.invisioncic.com/r322239/monthly_2023_12/example_RType_christmas.mp4.f2c1b80e8b01ac810f5ed44c6fcecb27.mp4

 

P.S.About 7800 sprites, in case you missed it:

 

 

[KrunchyTC]

9 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

I had also attached the Dobkeratops Demo (maybe you haven't looked at it) that it surprisingly doesn't consume so much CPU (1/3 in NTSC and 60fps). This means that the 7800 Dobkeratops screen can also include the background tile graphics, while in the Master System version that screen is completely blank (black) with no tiles.

 

There are currently no plans to make the full game, but there is a proof of concept of the first level and the placeholder tile graphics can already be replaced with the graphics I showed above. I have almost all the tiles of the first level (85% complete) but unfortunately I haven't found the time to complete it yet. I also started working on some sprites that will be the same size as the arcade version and therefore won't be as small as the ones in the Master System version.

 

This is not the first time my 7800 graphics have been called ambitious or bold or just a mock up, but in truth I only show real 7800 graphics that are ready to be inserted into the code, and often I have been lucky enough to meet some genius programmers who have made them a reality. In about a decade, not a single 7800 programmer has had any issues with the graphics I have provided. And yes, once again, people underestimate the potential of the 7800. I attach another video that has already been shared publicly but to be safe I will not mention the source. As I said before the tiles and some sprites are just placeholders for now.

 

https://content.invisioncic.com/r322239/monthly_2023_12/example_RType_christmas.mp4.f2c1b80e8b01ac810f5ed44c6fcecb27.mp4

 

P.S.About 7800 sprites, in case you missed it:

 

 

Are you the one who did the Link to the Past image? It looks legit like it could be done.

 

LttP on the 7800....🤤

[+Defender_2600]

38 minutes ago, KrunchyTC said:

Are you the one who did the Link to the Past image? It looks legit like it could be done.

 

LttP on the 7800....🤤

That is no longer a image, a few days after sharing the 7800 graphics, with great surprise I received a .a78 file (that allowed you to walk in the map) from the same genius and gentleman who programmed that wonder I showed above in the youtube video. I have the 7800 graphics of the map 90% complete, it is really impressive but once again I have not completed it, also demotivated by some events that make these things difficult to share publicly. This is really frustrating.

 

P.S. The sprite you see in my avatar should really walk in that 7800 map...

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Bakasama]

1 hour ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

 

That game looks and plays a lot The Dreadnaught Factor for the Intellivision.  I remember that game was published by Activision.

[KrunchyTC]

42 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

That is no longer a image, a few days after sharing the 7800 graphics, with great surprise I received a .a78 file (that allowed you to walk in the map) from the same genius and gentleman who programmed that wonder I showed above in the youtube video. I have the 7800 graphics of the map 90% complete, it is really impressive but once again I have not completed it, also demotivated by some events that make these things difficult to share publicly. This is really frustrating.

 

P.S. The sprite you see in my avatar should really walk in that 7800 map...

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

Daaaang! I hope you can share the .a78 at some point! Even just walking around the map would be incredible!

[Bakasama]

5 minutes ago, KrunchyTC said:

Daaaang! I hope you can share the .a78 at some point! Even just walking around the map would be incredible!

I think he posted that a while back. Then some incident cause it to be withdrawn. I think you might as ask for that ROM via PMs to get it.

[+Defender_2600]

4 minutes ago, Bakasama said:

I think he posted that a while back. Then some incident cause it to be withdrawn. I think you might as ask for that ROM via PMs to get it.

Thanks but no, that was LsADX graphics demo. Here we are talking about porting graphics from a 16 bit system, which is another animal.