Is it feasible to make a new ECS expansion today?

[8bitwidgets.com]

So in the light gun discussion it was floated to make the light gun require ECS..   needless to say this is a non-starter since I don't even own the ECS due to it's rarity and generally high price tag..   however, that got me thinking..  @opcode made the Super Game Module (and soon a SGM2) and basically that module was an expansion that never came out and was released by Opcode..  now my thought would be what if the intellivision got a modern ECS..  perhaps a usb port for a USB keyboard. 

 

Are the parts too rare to source?    Would this be a problem with Atari to make something like this?   

[+DZ-Jay]

I did not know that the ECS was rare at all.  I know that a lot of people don't like pulling it out and hooking it up just to play a handful of games (or get extra sound channels), but I thought it was fairly common.

 

   dZ.

[+fdr4prez]

11 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

I did not know that the ECS was rare at all.  I know that a lot of people don't like pulling it out and hooking it up just to play a handful of games (or get extra sound channels), but I thought it was fairly common.

 

   dZ.

And now that most of the games have been remade so that the keyboard isn't needed, there is even less demand for an ECS, but the extra sound channels are a nice perk.

 

Many recent homebrew games are taking advantage of the extra sound channels, but not many are taking advantage of the 2 extra ports.

 

I'd really like to see a two player version of Deadly Discs that takes advantage of the Dual Action Controller for both players - and the Long Play Controllers can do that, too.

[8bitwidgets.com]

8 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

but I thought it was fairly common.

as it stands they sell for $200-300 when they are for sale generally in good shape and working.  I consider items at that price point to be something rare.  Never more than a couple available at any given time.   I don't know the stats, but i'm pretty sure it's safe to say intellivision sold core units far more than ECS units..   so a vast amount of the population doesn't have the hardware..  and at $200-300 a pop it's unrealistic to expect people to go try and buy one of these to play a new homebrew game.   Even if that was an acceptable price at this time, as soon as people start buying the few on out there, prices would only go up as demand increased.  Look at the LTO..  

 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=Mattel+1983+ecs+intellivision&_sacat=0&_odkw=Mattel+1983+ecs&_osacat=0

I'm looking to see if an affordable / accessible product could be made to give homebrew devs something more powerful to develop for.  Something not based on the whims of ebay and price gougers..  Like I was saying with the SGM.  or even the LTO when it was actively being produced for retail.  

[8bitwidgets.com]

2 minutes ago, fdr4prez said:

I'd really like to see a two player version of Deadly Discs

yea that would be cool for sure.  

[+cvga]

21 minutes ago, fdr4prez said:

 

Many recent homebrew games are taking advantage of the extra sound channels, but not many are taking advantage of the 2 extra ports.

 

Could the two extra ports be used to make a 4 player game? Something like bomberman on the Intellivision would be really cool.

[+fdr4prez]

3 minutes ago, cvga said:

Could the two extra ports be used to make a 4 player game? Something like bomberman on the Intellivision would be really cool.

Yes. 

[8bitwidgets.com]

I mean yea if the ECS really brings little extra value to games, then I get it.  it's a niche expansion with little real excitement brought to the platform then no reason to bother.  That said, if one could be made and it gave more intellivision users the ability to do cooler stuff..  like the intellivision fujinet that's in the works..  give it a keyboard..  wifi..  could be interesting..  

 

It makes me wonder if the INTV III that was in development might somehow be able to be made into some kind of expansion port upgrade..  again, basically a Intellivision equivalent of the SGM.  

[8bitwidgets.com]

I'm just trying to think of ways we could expand the possibilities of the Intellivision in a way that's accessible to everyone and not a (more) limited audience.  If all it does is add 2k of ram and another three voices in audio..  maybe it's not worth it.   the keyboard support would have been interesting too.. 

[mr_me]

2 hours ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

So in the light gun discussion it was floated to make the light gun require ECS..   needless to say this is a non-starter since I don't even own the ECS due to it's rarity and generally high price tag..   however, that got me thinking..  @opcode made the Super Game Module (and soon a SGM2) and basically that module was an expansion that never came out and was released by Opcode..  now my thought would be what if the intellivision got a modern ECS..  perhaps a usb port for a USB keyboard. 

 

Are the parts too rare to source?    Would this be a problem with Atari to make something like this?   

In some ways the Opcode SGM is a lot like the ECS Computer Adaptor, some SRAM and an AY sound chip. ECS cassette and printer ports are probably optional. Not sure how a modern keyboard interface would work. Intellivision ECS has been done in fpga with usb but that might be cost prohibitive.

 

With an Intellivision III you're talking a new cpu and graphics system. All backwards compatible but you don't really need the Intellivision.

 

1 hour ago, fdr4prez said:

And now that most of the games have been remade so that the keyboard isn't needed, there is even less demand for an ECS, but the extra sound channels are a nice perk.

 

...

While the ecs computer keyboard isn't needed, I think the ecs computer adaper is still required for most of those ecs cartridge hacks, is it not.

Edited June 9 by mr_me

[8bitwidgets.com]

28 minutes ago, mr_me said:

With an Intellivision III you're talking a new cpu and graphics system.

gotcha, yea that's probably a bridge too far.  FPGA would be something, but the cost.. 

 

29 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Intellivision ECS has been done in fpga with usb but that might be cost prohibitive.

yea if that's the only way to get the chips needed, I see that being problematic because of the cost factor..  

 

 

I'd imagine USB interface isn't too bad cost-wise, but time-wise to get it configured to a standard 101 keyboard mapping probably would take some real know how.  

 

 

So basically it sounds like it might be possible, but difficult and maybe not really offering enough extra oomph to be all that worth it.  JLP offers more important feature like save/load and that's already a developed / done thing.  

 

[+DZ-Jay]

2 hours ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

as it stands they sell for $200-300 when they are for sale generally in good shape and working.  I consider items at that price point to be something rare.  Never more than a couple available at any given time.   I don't know the stats, but i'm pretty sure it's safe to say intellivision sold core units far more than ECS units..   so a vast amount of the population doesn't have the hardware..  and at $200-300 a pop it's unrealistic to expect people to go try and buy one of these to play a new homebrew game. 

But what we have now are collectors, not just the core market of the 1980s.  I think you are safe to assume that whomever is going to buy a new peripheral for their Intellivision, already has an ECS at hand -- and that the biggest barrier is to make your product compelling enough to motivate them to get their ECS out of the shelf.

 

    dZ.

[mr_me]

26 minutes ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

yea if that's the only way to get the chips needed, I see that being problematic because of the cost factor..  

 

 

I'd imagine USB interface isn't too bad cost-wise, but time-wise to get it configured to a standard 101 keyboard mapping probably would take some real know how.  

 

 

So basically it sounds like it might be possible, but difficult and maybe not really offering enough extra oomph to be all that worth it.  JLP offers more important feature like save/load and that's already a developed / done thing.  

What I said was it uses similar chips to the Opcode SGM. If they can find them you might be able as well. I'm just not sure what the solution is for a keyboard (but that might be optional too).

 

The Opcode SGM is a requirement, not an option, for many of the cartridges ported to the Colecovision.

Edited June 9 by mr_me

[+fdr4prez]

1 hour ago, mr_me said:

the ecs computer keyboard isn't needed, I think the ecs computer adaper is still required for most of those ecs cartridge hacks, is it not.

Ah, yeah, I suspect that you are correct. 

[+fdr4prez]

There is a recent mention here that the Opcode Intellexpander will still be developed and released.

 

 

[carlsson]

There is also the ACC by @JohnPCAE.

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/359039-slowly-building-more-acc-units/

 

 

[8bitwidgets.com]

15 hours ago, DZ-Jay said:

But what we have now are collectors, not just the core market of the 1980s.

I guess I've just felt like there are more than collectors who I consider a unique group of hardcore folks.  I have like 16 classic game systems mostly using multicarts, but i don't consider myself a collector.  I don't care and usually throw away boxes..   I don't care if they look pretty so long as they work.   However, maybe I'm the minority  

 

15 hours ago, mr_me said:

If they can find them you might be able as well.

but wouldn't the chips needed be specific to what the INTV needs?  Thus not sourcing the same chips as Opcode since the SGM is for the CV which has it's own chipset

 

15 hours ago, mr_me said:

The Opcode SGM is a requirement, not an option, for many of the cartridges ported to the Colecovision.

This isn't a bad thing so long as it's affordable and readily available.  $130 isn't chump change, but it's obtainable..  and the upgrade is noticeable.  That said as mentioned elsewhere, the JLP boards do pretty much address most of what the SGM offers.. other than improved sound.   The SGM2 coming soon has a video out on it which should be interesting.  I can't remember if it's analog or HDMI.  

 

30 minutes ago, carlsson said:

There is also the ACC by @JohnPCAE.

Interesting but look pretty intense labor wise..   impressive specs though.  

 

 

[mr_me]

1 hour ago, 8bitwidgets.com said:

...

 

but wouldn't the chips needed be specific to what the INTV needs?  Thus not sourcing the same chips as Opcode since the SGM is for the CV which has it's own chipset

 

This isn't a bad thing so long as it's affordable and readily available.  $130 isn't chump change, but it's obtainable..  and the upgrade is noticeable.  That said as mentioned elsewhere, the JLP boards do pretty much address most of what the SGM offers.. other than improved sound.   The SGM2 coming soon has a video out on it which should be interesting.  I can't remember if it's analog or HDMI.  

 

Interesting but look pretty intense labor wise..   impressive specs though.  

 

 

The OpcodeSGM uses the AY-3-8910 sound chip while the ECS uses the AY-3-8917. Essentially the same sound chip but for ECS it has to fit in the Intellivision memory map. Thought that could be done externally to make the ay-3-8910 work but there could be other issues, not sure. I wouldn't think there would be an issue with sram.

 

The Opcode SGM does offer a second sound chip offering more sound channels to programmers, but it's main purpose was to make the cv more compatible with MSX game code. Although a programmer can make use of two chips to improve sound effects, an MSX port to colecovision wouldn't typically do that.

 

The proposed ACC adds new graphics capability to Intellivision but games would still run on the original Intellivision CPU. The Intellixpander is more like a system changer with it's own cpu and graphics processor, for the purpose of porting SGM2 code. For comparison, the Atari 2600 melody cartridge, used by Champ games mentioned in the other thread, adds a 70Mhz risc processor to run game logic but still uses Atari 2600 graphics. 

Edited June 10 by mr_me

[diamax]

@8bitwidgets.com

Yes these are both great ideas and also the LTO flashcart is nowhere to be found, it will be nice that somebody else do another batch 

[8bitwidgets.com]

17 minutes ago, diamax said:

Yes these are both great ideas and also the LTO flashcart is nowhere to be found, it will be nice that somebody else do another batch

the LTO is TBD, but if you're looking for a multicart solution today, the backbit is awesome.  A very close equivalent at the same retail price point.  

 

As for the others, we'll see how it goes.  Lots of work up front needed to get something together, but still i'd love to explore opportunities to make useful things for the INTV community.  

[diamax]

@8bitwidgets.comYes because  it's better not to wait for Atari to do some Intellivision hardware or accessories

[First Spear]

Great points across the board on this thread. If something like an ECS plus was released for extra 2k and 2 extra ports (new games plus input for something like a light gun hint hint) and PSG and also Intellivoice emulation, that seems like a winner at the $75-100 range. The current ECS needs its own power brick and takes horizontal real estate along with the Intellivoice, it's a lot. Something for example Raspberry Pi-based would be pretty welcome (either using existing Intellivision cartridge line power or a Pi power supply). Maybe if it's Pi-based then some kind of "hat" to take the pinout from the ECS keyboards or controllers, or maybe it's port is USB and there's software translation of USB keyboard input to Inty signals.

 

[8bitwidgets.com]

20 hours ago, First Spear said:

that seems like a winner at the $75-100 range.

yea that's my thought too..  but i think because JLP exists at this point and has become it's own gold standard for homebrew games, it might be more disruptive to create an ECS alternative.  

 

 

20 hours ago, First Spear said:

Raspberry Pi-based

I'm not sure how much development it would take for that.  I feel like that would be some non-trival work to program a pi to become a kind of ECS expansion..   thought it could be more than that. 

 

 

what about this..  what if a sound module were made for the INTV?  this would be a cartridge extender that simply gives the added ECS sound chip to the system for future homebrew devs to take advantage of?  The products I'm thinking of would be really just a matter of plugging chips in to be accessible by the intellivision through a custom PCB with traces routing the pins to the right cart ports.  to the best of my knowledge so long as the chips are wired right that would be it.. no custom programming other than programming from future homebrew games that would know how to tap into the extra chip.. though i wonder how sound would be transmitted..  i guess much like how the voice in the intellivoice makes it into the audio out of the intellivision..  

[mr_me]

The sound chip would have to have some sort of audio amplifier, notice how both the intellivoice and ecs computer adapter have volume control knobs. The ram should be straightforward but if the sound chip is an AY-3-891x variant it might need extra circuitry to fit into the memory map. And although they're the same sound chip the registers might be numbered differently. An electronics hardware guy can advise if it's doable.

[carlsson]

So what is the real reasons we want to expand the base system, and with what?

• More RAM. Both the LTO and the Backbit support memory maps with RAM in various slots, so if you have one of those cartridges, you're already covered.
• More GRAM. There is a late variation of the Intellivision which supports defining more graphics symbols, and it has been tested in emulation.
• Access to more ROM. I know there are various bank switching schemes so nothing new about that.
• Higher resolution. This is what the ACC would achieve with an overlay display, but quite different from what is the Intellivision.
• More colours, redefinable palette. Not doable with the STIC and I don't think any other solution would fix this without replacing the video chip.
• More controllers. This is one of the features of the ECS, for people who happen to have more than one friend.
• Other types of controllers: keyboard, mouse, trackball, light gun etc. I don't know how feasible those are.
• More sound channels. Again a feature of the ECS with an extra AY chip. Could be a completely different chip too, FM synthesis etc.
• Speech synthesis. We have the IntyVoice with its proprietary algorithms and software to program it. A different type of speech synthesis would both be more open and sound even better.
• Faster CPU or co-processor. Think about the ARM in most modern Atari 2600 games, off-lifting a lot of processing. At least I imagine if one could combine with RAM and DMA (?) to blast screens to the BACKTAB, it would make a difference.
• Other forms of I/O for connecting to the Internet, other types of serial etc communication, perhaps Bluetooth.
• Etc etc

I'm not saying that all these bullet points really need to be addressed, or for that matter that a new piece of hardware expansion should even attempt to address more than a few of them. Many of them would transform the system to something different than it is or ever was intended to be.

 

Perhaps start with picking out the most pressing matters, what players and developers really would like to have in a system once it has been upgraded. Unlike the SGM for ColecoVision, there is not really any similar system for which the Intellivision needs a small hardware upgrade to be fully compatible with. And yes Unisonic Champion, I'm aware about your existance and decle already made a simulator for you without any hardware enhancements.