What is the reason, that is stopping more homebrew authors from developing for the 5200?

[+wongojack]

1 hour ago, GaryH917 said:

There's a very limited audience to sell to so what's the incentives? Most homebrewers do it for the love of the system. You only had 1 million+ sold from 82-84 plus another 100,000+ sold on clearance in 86-87. I was happy to see Tempest, Scramble, Sinistar and Xari Arena recently released. Phaser Cat Games also has released quality games. How many systems are still out there being used? There's a good bit of 5200 sales on eBay but that probably doesn't mean a whole lot.

I don't really understand why you are quoting me to say this but yeah - right on.  No incentives to develop homebrews is true.  Things have gotten a bit more organized, but they are really all just passion projects.  I mean, I think so - point me to a person who got rich making homebrews (or any software) from discontinued systems.

[Supergun]

There are many reasons why the Atari Computer Line was and continues to be more attractive to both game players and homebrew developers than the Atari 5200 can ever hope to be.

 

- a large base of system owners encompassing various consoles and setups: 400/800/1200/XL/XE/XEGS etc.

- an international audience as well.

- you get 5200 graphics but with 2600 play control.

- the smaller cartridges take up less space.

- composite video versus RF only. (stock systems of course)

- was supported by the parent company for over a decade versus 2 years.

- 236 cartridges were available versus 69.

- hundreds additional games available with the expandability/compatibility with TAPE and DISK game library as well.

- dozens of additional different controller options are available.

- anything else I missed?

 

For me personally, there is no comparison and it's no contest. I can't even remember the last time I turned on my 5200. But I play my XEGS all the time.

I also play my 2600 all the time and my 7800 every once in a while. And I never play my Lynx or Jaguar. So I am NOT anti-atari / pro-nintendo.

 

Less is more. And in 1982, if Atari would have released an XEGS (or similar computer line console disguised as a game system), already fully compatible with dozens of existing cartridges and controllers right out of the box on day one, it would likely have sold as well as the 2600 did.

 

[RangerG]

I thought the Atari 5200 slowly gained popularity throughout its lifetime and was at least almost equal in sales to the Colecovision when the crash killed both systems.

 

One more thing I love about the Atari 5200 and thus it surprised me through the years how it has been forgotten and eclipsed by the 7800. The 5200 represented when Atari was #1. The boxes, carts, and manuals are full color and show a company winning the videogame race. To me it is a "feel good" console. You had a huge, impressive, enviable console in 1982 and 1983, if you had a 5200. The 7800 cartridge labels and manuals are so cheap in comparison and show a company in decline. Even the two color Colecovision manuals don't look high-end to me like the full color 5200 ones. Unfortunately, none of this matters and the 5200 is really a "you had to have been there" console to appreciate it as the Super System. 

 

 

Edited July 1 by RangerG

[GaryH917]

45 minutes ago, RangerG said:

Unfortunately, none of this matters and the 5200 is really a "you had to have been there" console to appreciate it as the Super System. 

Exactly! Thank you for saying this. Younger generations get their information from other sources nowadays. Other Atari systems have sold less than the 5200 but don't get slapped around like the scapegoat the Internet has made it out to be. Won't change my opinion 🙂

[www.atarimania.com]

What I really don't get is why there are so few North American developers making games for the system. While a lot of users want to give the 5200 a proper identity and not lump it in the same category as the 8-bit line, you could still use the tons of programming utilities available for the computers, write original 5200 software and get away with it. What I see is a big identity crisis with a number of people requesting 8-bit conversions yet wanting the 5200 to be its own unique thing. Weird...

 

Also, a huge portion of the 8-bit games being produced are European. There just isn't any sensible reason why a Polish programmer with a project on a 64K computer would want to downgrade his work and pull his hair out by porting his game to a system virtually unknown to him and less capable.

 

 

 

 

[ledzep]

On 7/1/2024 at 4:19 PM, www.atarimania.com said:

What I really don't get is why there are so few North American developers making games for the system. While a lot of users want to give the 5200 a proper identity and not lump it in the same category as the 8-bit line, you could still use the tons of programming utilities available for the computers, write original 5200 software and get away with it. What I see is a big identity crisis with a number of people requesting 8-bit conversions yet wanting the 5200 to be its own unique thing. Weird...

 

Also, a huge portion of the 8-bit games being produced are European. There just isn't any sensible reason why a Polish programmer with a project on a 64K computer would want to downgrade his work and pull his hair out by porting his game to a system virtually unknown to him and less capable.

 

 

I wonder if there could be such a thing as a "middleman homebrewist", meaning someone who is really good at converting those 8-bit games to the 5200 so that these European 8-bit developers you mention wouldn't mind letting someone else take over the push into the 5200 side, switching around the memory locations, adding the analog controls, for some agreed-upon cut of the uncountable homebrew market riches, hahaaha, or a straight fee.  But still, some "easy" work having to do another 10(?)% of coding more than the original programmer did.  And then sell those extra games through AtariAge?

 

Maybe that's a dumb idea, but I see it as similar to making a homebrew game but letting some place like AtariAge or Sean Kelly handle the physical cartridges and boxes because it's too much a pain in the ass for the original programmer to track down a printer who can do the boxes, labels and instruction manuals the right way, and then assemble them at home one by one.  I think those 8-bit homebrew programmers are leaving money (and fame) on the table by not finding a way to get those cool games onto another platform that's almost another 8-bit computer already.  Or maybe AtariAge (with some corporate Atari backing) could have an in-house 8-bit to 5200 converter programmer ready to deal with them?  It would be a win for Atari to get more software out there for their own (retro) gear and fanbase.  Sort of like a poor man's APX for the 5200.

 

I think that kind of scenario would obviously start adding more games to the 5200 world and maybe demonstrate enough interest in the 5200 as a whole for some programmers to decide that it's worth it to code games for the 5200.

[BIGHMW]

19 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

I wonder if there could be such a thing as a "middleman homebrewist", meaning someone who is really good at converting those 8-bit games to the 5200 so that these European 8-bit developers you mention wouldn't mind letting someone else take over the push into the 5200 side, switching around the memory locations, adding the analog controls, for some agreed-upon cut of the uncountable homebrew market riches, hahaaha, or a straight fee.  But still, some "easy" work having to do another 10(?)% of coding more than the original programmer did.  And then sell those extra games through AtariAge?

 

Maybe that's a dumb idea, but I see it as similar to making a homebrew game but letting some place like AtariAge or Sean Kelly handle the physical cartridges and boxes because it's too much a pain in the ass for the original programmer to track down a printer who can do the boxes, labels and instruction manuals the right way, and then assemble them at home one by one.  I think those 8-bit homebrew programmers are leaving money (and fame) on the table by not finding a way to get those cool games onto another platform that's almost another 8-bit computer already.  Or maybe AtariAge (with some corporate Atari backing) could have an in-house 8-bit to 5200 converter programmer ready to deal with them?  It would be a win for Atari to get more software out there for their own (retro) gear and fanbase.  Sort of like a poor man's APX for the 5200.

 

I think that kind of scenario would obviously start adding more games to the 5200 world and maybe demonstrate enough interest in the 5200 as a whole for some programmers to decide that it's worth it to code games for the 5200.

Indeed. In fact I would be more than willing to pay somebody perhaps Paul Lay @playsoft or Eric @eea or Robert Anschutz @rra for the effort to convert some of my favorite 8-bit titles to the 5200, and I’m sure that there would be more than just me who would do the same.

 

I only ask for like a handful of titles be converted like Crack-Up!, Planetary Defense (perhaps a trak-ball version could be in the cards), Bug Attack and a few others but I do realize that not everything can be converted to work around the 5200’s 16K of RAM but there are some out there and if it indeed came down to having only 2 gaming systems it would be both the 5200 and 7800, as there are hundreds of great titles for both plus the backwards compatibility of the 7800 with 2600 games and accessories as well as my arsenal of controllers that’ll also work with my 5200 thanks to Redemption 5200 in which I am planning to get another set of (for both 2600/Sega and 7800 controllers) to go with the ones I have already.

[leech]

On 6/18/2024 at 3:41 AM, ledzep said:

I wonder if it's a chicken or the egg problem.  Meaning some people don't try because it's not popular enough, but it's not popular enough because hardly anybody tries?  I think the controllers are superior, especially the trak-ball, but many people hate the analog joysticks.  So, maybe the thing to do is develop a good digital joystick for it, maybe 3D print the necessary parts (use off the shelf joysticks/switches) and offer them up as alternates (on AtariAge), then developers might see a bigger user base for games that normally would just be made for the 8-bit computers?

 

I would think that developing a game for the computers would automatically also mean a game for the 5200, and vice versa, because there are only a few changes needed to convert over.  But it doesn't wind up that way so it must be more irritating than that.  I wish someone would convert "Eastern Front (1941)" for the 5200, that might generate some hype for the console, but in general I have no idea why the 5200 is ignored.  I mean, arcade ports are cool, but having that keypad for games like "Star Raiders" seems like a no-brainer for making strategy games or adventure games that require more inputs than just 2 fire buttons.  I'd love to see "Scram" converted, hahaha, what's more action-packed than a nuclear reactor simulator?!

 

I wonder if maybe initially there should be more emphasis on converting 8-bit games across to the 5200?  I remember a lot of SSI games for the computers back in the day, many WWII games but some other stuff, too.  If there appears to be a flood of "new" titles for the 5200, maybe that could generate more interest overall in the console, and then if there's a growing user base because of it then the idea of making actual new games for the 5200 instead of just the 2600 over and over (and the 7800 as well) might take off.

Do you know what would be a great boost to the 5200 library?  An Atari 5200+ treatment.  If Atari pulled that off, AND made it with two cartridge ports (one for Atari 8bit carts and one for 5200 carts), with a USB port for a keyboard that you could also buy with the 8bit layout... I'd buy that.  Modern, self centering controllers built like the original 5200 controllers would be another thing I'd buy...

I recently fired up Spy Hunter on the 5200, works awesomely, and is nice to not have to plug in a second joystick for the secondary attacks, like the A8 version...

[leech]

I think the key thing here to drive 5200 development would be more people with 5200s.  The excuse to port games to it would need to be games that'd take advantage of it's controller.  Something like the Dig Dug port doesn't make the 5200 desirable, but something like Star Raiders does.  It'd be sweet to get some of those flight games from the A8 ported, like I used to love to play F15 Strike Eagle on the 800xl.

[Greg2600]

There's a TON of 5200 owners out there.  I will say this, when I first began "collecting" as a hobby, and visited this forum, the 5200 was maybe the 2nd most popular console after the VCS.  Just from my observations.  There were quality homebrew, maybe not a high quantity but quality.  I was quite impressed, plus the number of nearly complete unreleased prototypes that were available as repros.  Then you had a bit of a thrash of 8-bit conversions, which also were fun to play.  Either way, it seemed like the home brews and repros were some of the top A.A. sellers. 

 

Within the last decade or so, it's really shifted to the other 8-bits Intellivision, Colecovision, 7800, NES, C64, etc., with the 2600 continuing to have a huge follow.  Even Atari 8-bit hasn't been what I'd call a major platform for home brew, which has limited 5200 conversions.  I don't know that there are THAT many more INTV, CV, 7800 floating around for being the reason for increased attention.  I really think it's the hardware platform.  Intellivision is kind of its own animal, but it's had a strong following that eventually turned to big time home brew designing.  CV of course greatly benefited from the porting of SG-1000 or TI/99 games, and graphically it better resembles what gamers saw in the later 8-bit consoles.  Once things took off for those other consoles, the 5200 has been largely forgotten. 

[CapitanClassic]

I find it doubtful that the number of manufactured 5200 systems is a limiting factor. When software sales of a successful game are in the 200-500 units range, what does it matter how many millions of systems are out there.

[+Zeptari]

On 6/19/2024 at 9:43 AM, Crazy Climber said:

I've bought (and sold) an atari 5200 system no less than 3 times over the last 15 or 20 years...

I never owned one back in the day, parents got me a colecovision for xmas 82. I was curious with my 800XL background and did nearly the same as @Crazy Climber in the early 90's and then again in about 2010 or so. The controller just killed it for me. Loved the roller controller and games that supported it. 

 

On 6/19/2024 at 3:24 AM, ledzep said:

Right?  I was always surprised that Elite never made it to the 8-bits.

Would have loved to see Elite on the 8bit or 5200 back in the day!

 

On 6/18/2024 at 4:36 PM, DamonicFury said:

16K limitation

Learn something new everyday. I had no idea it was this low... 5200 is basically an A400. Wait a minute! I think I remember someone saying something about a Pam console should have been released or something years ago.... IDK.. lol maybe it was @Shawn or @Rev or @CPUWIZ..

 

 

 

[+Ryan Witmer]

16KB is low?  I can't count how many times the 7800 guys have told me how much they envy that memory.

[Clint Thompson]

2 hours ago, Ryan Witmer said:

16KB is low?  I can't count how many times the 7800 guys have told me how much they envy that memory.

It is low, when the standard variant of an Atari 130XE is 128k, why bother. There's a laundry list of reasons the 7800 failed, but lacking the pokey at hardware level didn't help matters either.

 

In short and reiterating what others have already said: Limited RAM, awful controllers and the exact same platform in computer form is superior plus the keyboard input option.

 

*EDIT: 😄 I love how you ask if 16KB is low in question form but then I see another thread where you state the game you're working on is using a 512KB cartridge. Like holy cow! lol

Yes, it's low. I've not heard of half a megabyte 5200 cart before... what's the limit size?

Edited July 9 by Clint Thompson

[+Ryan Witmer]

I've heard vague, shadowy rumors of a 1 megabyte cart, but I can neither confirm nor deny its existence.

 

Either way, 4 megabits should be enough for anybody.  If it was good enough for Phantasy Star, it's good enough for me.

[CPUWIZ]

4 hours ago, Ryan Witmer said:

I've heard vague, shadowy rumors of a 1 megabyte cart, but I can neither confirm nor deny its existence.

 

Either way, 4 megabits should be enough for anybody.  If it was good enough for Phantasy Star, it's good enough for me.

 

Easy, no big difference to the 7800 (minus a heart breaking signal), which I can run up to a 1MB binary on.  You can even do multi-bank switching, like have N banks at $4000 and N banks at $8000 (you can avoid any potential startup issues by replicating the required vectors across all banks at $8000).

 

I made a 272K cart a looong time ago, nobody was interested in big carts then.

[Clint Thompson]

1 minute ago, CPUWIZ said:

I made a 272K cart a looong time ago, nobody was interested in big carts then.

I think the homebrew scene was drastically different back then than it is now though for the 7800.

Even in recent years there have been far more developments thanks to the tools available.

 

A 1MB 7800 game? sign me up!

[CPUWIZ]

32 minutes ago, Clint Thompson said:

I think the homebrew scene was drastically different back then than it is now though for the 7800.

Even in recent years there have been far more developments thanks to the tools available.

 

A 1MB 7800 game? sign me up!

 

Sorry, that was a 272K 5200 PCB, not the 7800 ones I made, there is a pic in the link to the prototype (which I have no idea where it ended up).

 

EDIT: You can see the PCB with 1MB support in the middle of this picture (red PCB).

[tradyblix]

On 6/18/2024 at 8:36 AM, pboland said:

The 5200 is a cool system, but I think the main issue is there just isn't that many out there. The system was a hard sell back in the day to begin with. Not because of the joysticks (however that didn't help) and not because is was a bad system. I think it was a timing and cost issue. People BITD thought "I already have an Atari". If they upgraded from the 2600, they most likely moved to the Colecovision back then. I would guess there are more Atari Jaguar units out there than Atari 5200 units (of course I just guessing).

Colecovision was the province of wealthier folks, like middle class and upper middle class people. I grew up in the lower middle class, and I remember having some friends I would consider as "poor" who were playing 2600 games well into the second half of the 80s still. Just because NES and the games were out of reach for them.

 

I'm talking about families that couldn't even afford to buy brand name soda. 

 

I'm pretty sure most people went from 2600 to NES. I did. It took me 2 years after 1985 to convince my parents to get an NES for me, anyway. In their minds they'd "only just bought" a 2600 for like, 300 bucks or whatever it used to be lol 

Edited July 13 by tradyblix

[Zonie]

i have to go with:

• Controllers
• Qty of consoles actually in peoples hands

I have two four ports and no working Atari controllers. I modded one's switch box to just be in game mode all the time.

I do have two Wico's and the Wico keypads. Still not enough to make me use the console and I have a boxed copy of Adventure II for it.

I'm considering selling all my 5200 stuff. It hasn't been touched since I moved into a new house 4 years ago.

I have zero interest in Homebrews for it since I have a 400, 800, and XEGS to satisfy my 8-Bit line needs.

 

IMO, the 5200 was a dumb idea. The 400 should have been given more ram, changed to black and had the price dropped to console prices.

The XEGS was too late.

[Zonie]

On 6/30/2024 at 11:20 PM, ledzep said:

--SNIP--

 

I personally cannot tolerate those NES controllers, I can barely stand the Playstation type of joypads. 

Me neither

Edited July 18 by Zonie

[Clint Thompson]

1 hour ago, Zonie said:

IMO, the 5200 was a dumb idea. The 400 should have been given more ram, changed to black and had the price dropped to console prices.

The XEGS was too late.

The only thing dumb about the 5200 outside of its astronomical size were the controllers. 5200 was a class act and it was Atari's answer to literally bring arcade quality graphic and sounds into the home. Just didn't pan out that way.

 

As late as the XEGS was, it sold 100k+ units so that definitely helped the Tramiels offset a ton of inventory for profit.

[ledzep]

3 hours ago, Clint Thompson said:

The only thing dumb about the 5200 outside of its astronomical size were the controllers. 5200 was a class act and it was Atari's answer to literally bring arcade quality graphic and sounds into the home. Just didn't pan out that way.

 

As late as the XEGS was, it sold 100k+ units so that definitely helped the Tramiels offset a ton of inventory for profit.

 

"Astronomical size", it was like an inch or two bigger (W x D) than most of the other consoles, how is that astronomical?

 

I think I posted this earlier, compare to the 5200 at 13" x 15" x 4.25" tall

 

https://www.dimensions.com/collection/video-game-consoles

 

That is a complaint that never makes sense.  Put the console on the table or floor and start playing.  Who cares if it's a little bigger than another console, it doesn't affect any of the game playing.  If the NES was as big as the 5200 would that matter?

 

Considering all the complaints Atari got about those controllers I'm surprised that they didn't offer alternate controllers to solve that problem.  Either digital sticks or self-centering analog sticks a la the Vectrex, though a few games would welcome the non-self-centering, like Missile Command and Centipede or something like Tailgunner (if it ever came out).  I mean, they loved extra controllers for the 2600 and they released the Trak-Ball for the 5200, what's another controller especially if it would have been popular?  And no official paddles, for shame.

 

If they ever make a 5200 Flashback type retro console I hope they offer new controllers with the same 15-pin plug so that those of us with 5200s can buy them and use them with old games.  A spinner would be perfect, so would a digital joystick (and an all button controller).  Fix those goddamn mushy fire buttons!

[Clint Thompson]

an additional 2” depth and 2” width all around makes a big difference.

there’s no downplaying the size, the 5200 is simply huge and makes sense why a Jr. was being considered

 

[else]

9 hours ago, ledzep said:

Considering all the complaints Atari got about those controllers I'm surprised that they didn't offer alternate controllers to solve that problem.  Either digital sticks or self-centering analog sticks a la the Vectrex, though a few games would welcome the non-self-centering, like Missile Command and Centipede or something like Tailgunner (if it ever came out).  I mean, they loved extra controllers for the 2600 and they released the Trak-Ball for the 5200, what's another controller especially if it would have been popular?  And no official paddles, for shame.

Yea, this is the most surprising thing about Atari and the 5200 to me too.  Maybe it's a symptom of the dysfunction at Atari at the time or vice versa (hard to tell which is the cart and which is the horse here).  They also didn't seem to offer any (formal) repair program for the 5200 joysticks either.  Or if they did, it doesn't seem like it was widely known anyway.  I know they went through a number of iterations of membrane to try to fix them, but that didn't help the early adopters or even the midlife adopters.  I think if they had just done SOMETHING with regards to the controllers they might have been able to salvage the situation. But it's like they just it wither on the vine....

Edited July 18 by else