Neo Geo games to Jaguar? Would be possible?

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

[Lost Monkey]

2 hours ago, laymanpigeon said:

You write nonsense that ignores what I wrote in this and other threads, no actual counter arguments from you like anyone else in here besides user DEATH that unfortunately does not seem capable of comprehending I can agree with arguments made by some people, but alas people mock me as me being AI while ironically they behave like one. 

 

Your supposed argument that you are trying to make is contradicted by very action Atari itself made that proves you wrong, also if you had actual valid argument then you would not cherry pick by focusing on 68030 and ignoring 68020. How many times do I have to prove you wrong and expose you for being disingenuous underhanded bastard?

 

68000 in Jaguar is 16MHz rated 68HC000 that is 15$ by 1993 when regular 68000 was 5~6USD yet if cost was issue then why pick most expensive 68000 model? For that matter 68HC000 used was down clocked from 16MHz to 13MHz hence nearly 20 percent reduction of performance it had. For that matter 16MHz 68EC020 was same price as 68HC000 and has 32 bit data bus along 256 bytes of instruction cache while same 24 bit address width unlike standard 68020 is 32 bit. Though if willing for just 3USD more there is 25MHz rated 68EC020 that can do 7.5 MIPS compared to 16MHz 68HC000 that does 2.2 MIPS.

 

68EC030 is fully 32 bit with 256 bytes each for instruction and data cache while lacks memory management unit of standard 68030. Not as cost effective as 25MHz rated 68EC020 though 68EC030 having 256 bytes of data cache that 68EC020 does not have is arguably substantial since it would have least impact on system bandwidth than either 68000/68HC000 and 68020/68EC020. Because latter does not have data cache and former does not also have instructions cache.

 

If Atari went by your own nonsense logic then they would not have used 4 megabit DRAM chips nor FPM rated at 70ns in Jaguar.

 

Also if Jaguar had 68EC030 then it would have had in same family processor as Amiga 3000/4000, more so with Atari Falcon and Amiga CD32 had 68EC020.

Jaguar during development had 68030 and 68020 then 68000 and could have been without it yet people like you pretend it never happened or maybe you do not even know that fact, so which is it?

 

Even on matter of cost people like you are wrong as 68HC000 in Jaguar that costs as much as 68EC020 when Jaguar during development supported 68030 and 68020 only for all that work to be essentially scrapped.

 

People like you fail time and time again that you are in the wrong and are making excuses, work was already done for Jaguar to support 68030 and 68020 as too cost fallacy of being too expensive when most expensive model of 68000 was used that being 16MHz rated 68HC000 at 15USD. They could have used 12MHz 68000 that was just 5USD.

 

25MHz 68EC030 would allow for games being ported from Amiga 3000/4000 and even CD32.

 

While people like you go on "but oh the cost, think of the cost..." and do not consider people that owned Sega Genesis spent 300USD in 1992 on CD add-on that could not function on its own while itself with Genesis totaled 400~450USD in 1992.

 

 

What are you trying to say?

[+Sauron]

2 hours ago, laymanpigeon said:

While people like you go on "but oh the cost, think of the cost..." and do not consider people that owned Sega Genesis spent 300USD in 1992 on CD add-on that could not function on its own while itself with Genesis totaled 400~450USD in 1992.

 

 

LOLWUT? That makes no sense. What does that have to do with the Jaguar? Absolutely nothing. Sega and Atari were two very different companies in very different financial situations in the early 90s. Plus, it's obvious you've never worked on hardware in a professional setting. If you're here arguing this to try to prove how smart you are, you are failing miserably.

 

[+Sauron]

13 minutes ago, Lost Monkey said:

What are you trying to say?

I'm pretty sure he has no idea himself.

 

[42bs]

according chatgpt, the MC68000 was slightly more expensive than the mc68hc000 from 1990 till 1993. So it is likely, that early boards use mc68000 because the other chip was not available.

But the mc68020 was far mord expensive (up to 10 times in 1990, where the design of the PCB likely started).

 

Even the mc68ce020 was factors more expensive. So out of reach for a cost effective console.

[phoenixdownita]

6 hours ago, 42bs said:

according chatgpt, ….

AI enters the arena … can it beat human stupidity?

 

Seriously, don’t bother, he already reached his conclusion and because it’s his it must be right and everyone else is wrong. It was pure sabotage … they wanted to tank 💩

[42bs]

39 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

AI enters the arena … can it beat human stupidity?

Yes, but it is just easier than googling hours to find the figures.

[42bs]

Quote

The Atari Jaguar, released in 1993, failed for several key reasons, despite its technical promise as a "64-bit" gaming console. Here are the primary factors that contributed to its failure:

### 1. **Complex Hardware and Development Challenges**
   The Jaguar's architecture was highly complex. While it was marketed as a 64-bit console, it was actually a combination of 32-bit and 64-bit processors working together. This dual-chip design (with processors like "Tom" and "Jerry") made development difficult for game developers. Programming for the system was notoriously challenging, resulting in limited support from third-party developers and subpar games.

### 2. **Lack of Quality Games**
   Due to the difficult hardware and poor developer support, the Jaguar's game library was weak. Many games released were mediocre or poorly optimized, which hurt its reputation. The system lacked high-quality, exclusive titles that could compete with its rivals. The few standout games, like *Alien vs. Predator*, weren’t enough to sustain long-term interest.

### 3. **Poor Marketing and Consumer Confusion**
   Atari marketed the Jaguar as the first 64-bit console, trying to differentiate it from competitors like the Sega Genesis (16-bit) and Super Nintendo (16-bit). However, consumers were confused by the "64-bit" claim since the games didn’t look significantly better than those on 16-bit consoles or the emerging 32-bit competitors like the Sony PlayStation and Sega Saturn.

### 4. **Timing and Competition**
   By the time the Jaguar was released, the gaming market was shifting rapidly. In 1993, the Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis were still strong, with large, loyal fanbases. Additionally, the Jaguar’s timing put it head-to-head with the more powerful Sony PlayStation (1994) and Sega Saturn (1994). Both systems offered easier development environments, stronger hardware, and better game libraries, making it hard for the Jaguar to compete.

### 5. **Controller Design**
   The Jaguar's controller was widely criticized for being large, awkward, and featuring a numeric keypad that many found unnecessary. This design choice felt outdated compared to the simpler, more intuitive controllers offered by its competitors.

### 6. **Financial Instability at Atari**
   Atari as a company was already struggling when it launched the Jaguar. Financial issues and internal mismanagement hindered the company’s ability to properly support the console, both in terms of marketing and development. This instability meant Atari could not compete with the much larger budgets of rivals like Sony and Sega.

### 7. **Failed Add-Ons**
   The Jaguar also suffered from misguided peripherals like the Jaguar CD, which was released in 1995. The add-on was poorly supported and did little to improve the console’s prospects. It further fragmented the already small user base and created confusion among potential buyers.

### 8. **Limited Third-Party Support**
   Many third-party developers chose not to support the Jaguar due to its technical complexity, small user base, and Atari’s declining reputation. Without strong third-party game releases, the console couldn't gain traction in the market.

### Conclusion
The Atari Jaguar failed because of its complicated hardware, lack of developer support, weak game library, poor marketing, and stiff competition from better-supported consoles like the PlayStation and Sega Saturn. Combined with Atari’s financial struggles, the Jaguar was unable to establish itself as a viable contender in the rapidly evolving gaming industry.

Answer for "Why did Atari Jaguar fail?"

 

Edited September 12 by 42bs

[laymanpigeon]

12 hours ago, Lost Monkey said:

What are you trying to say?

Uncle Ruckus voice: Of course a pale monkey does not understand this.

 

Jaguar had 68030 during development hence work was done on earlier iterations of the motherboard to support 68030 and could support 68020, downgrading to 68000 created all sort of issues. Such as 68000 having 16 bit data bus thus 32 bit code from Tom and Jerry could not be sent to 68000 in a single batch hence stalling. Similar happened in Atari Falcon except it was 68030 yet they cut costs and had only 16 bit data bus connection to it, anything that could not be done entirely within it's instructions and data cache had heavier impact on performance than if there was full 32 bit bus connection hence performance of 4MIPS instead unless code and results can be done within cache which then can be 6MIPS.

 

68030 and 68020 could match 25MHz clock of Tom and Jerry unlike 68000 that was down clocked from 16MHz to 13MHz for meager 2.275MIPS compared to 9MIPS and 7.5MIPS for 68030 and 68020 respectively at 25MHz. 68000 was sometimes used to run game logic on Jaguar hence 68020 could ran it over 3 times faster and nearly 4 times faster on 68030. Initial Super FX chip for Star Fox did 4MIPS while fully clocked Super FX on Doom did between 7 and 12 MIPS with 64 kilobyte external SRAM as RAM.

 

Another is games made for Amiga 3000/4000 and CD32 could have been ported to Jaguar, majority of work would have been done rewriting graphics code of their games as obviously handled differently. Since Tom GPU was one with DRAM controller hence it also did it for Jerry, 68000 and would have for 68020 thus if 68030 was selected it could be 68EC030 that does not have memory controller unit.

12 hours ago, Sauron said:

LOLWUT? That makes no sense. What does that have to do with the Jaguar? Absolutely nothing. Sega and Atari were two very different companies in very different financial situations in the early 90s. Plus, it's obvious you've never worked on hardware in a professional setting. If you're here arguing this to try to prove how smart you are, you are failing miserably.

 

I am failing miserably apparently yet to you it does not make sense what I wrote which speaks a lot about your intelligence, that is lack of thereof to begin with because you incapable of comprehending Sega and Atari are in same market competing to same audience being those that play video games and not in a separate bubbles from each other.

 

Provide actual counter arguments instead of actual utter nonsense. Sole reason why 32X add-on for Genesis exists is due to Sega of America took seriously Atari with their Jaguar home console, but expect from you to say: That makes no sense. I do not have to work on hardware to point out nonsense that people like you wrote because you have no counter argument to anything I say. Only one in here that had was DEATH while rest of you behave as someone with lead poisoning. Boomers.

 

Atari could have priced Jaguar to 300USD and Sega CD add-on for Genesis was released over a year ago at 300USD before Jaguar.

[42bs]

20 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

if 68030 was selected it could be 68EC030 that does not have memory controller unit.

Memory controller != MMU

[42bs]

37 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

Jaguar had 68030 during development hence work was done on earlier iterations of the motherboard

According the FAQ, for dev-systems only.

 

And

 

Quote

 "Atari were keen to use a 68K family device, and we looked closely at
   various members.  We did actually build a couple of 68030 versions of the
   early beta developers systems, and for a while were going to use a 68020.
   However, this turned out too expensive.

 

So if Motorola would have lowered the price for Atari ...

Edited September 12 by 42bs

[laymanpigeon]

1 hour ago, 42bs said:

Memory controller != MMU

My mistake and early consoles did not need MMU anyways.

1 hour ago, 42bs said:

According the FAQ, for dev-systems only.

 

And

 

 

So if Motorola would have lowered the price for Atari ...

Simply refered to 68030 and 68020, unclear if person answering had bog standard or economic cost 68EC030 and 68EC020 in mind. Does not help statement that 68020 were to expensive when 68HC000 were used in Jaguar and 68EC020 was same price and clock speed. Another is both TT030 and Falcon030 had 68030 while former was used as developer systems for Jaguar, yet does not make sense considering 68000 in Jaguar and 68030 in TT030 had differences in instruction set and operation thus not entirely compatible processors 

[42bs]

4 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

TT030 and Falcon030 had 68030 while former was used as developer systems for Jaguar,

Oh yes, just because they developed on an TT the target system must have the same CPU. Why on earth does the Lynx only have a 65C02 when the development system run on a 68030?
 

And comparing the prices of a PC with a console is pure nonsense. The margin on a PC is much bigger, so it does not matter (that much) if they use a 68020 or 030. 1994 a Falcon030 did cost 2000DM while a Jaguar 300DM!

 

[+Sauron]

2 hours ago, laymanpigeon said:

Provide actual counter arguments instead of actual utter nonsense. Sole reason why 32X add-on for Genesis exists is due to Sega of America took seriously Atari with their Jaguar home console, but expect from you to say: That makes no sense. I do not have to work on hardware to point out nonsense that people like you wrote because you have no counter argument to anything I say. Only one in here that had was DEATH while rest of you behave as someone with lead poisoning. Boomers.

My arguments are quite valid. You can try gaslighting your way out of them all you want, but it's plain to everyone else here that you're speaking out of your ass. You provide no sources for your numberwang, probably because you know they're highly inaccurate and don't reflect the market realities of the time period. And no, you don't have to work on hardware, but you do have to be at least somewhat aware of what goes into the making of hardware outside of just compiling parts. Again, you provide no proof of your experience or knowledge in this field. And then to cap it all off, you call people who are obviously Gen X "Boomers", coming from someone who is part of probably the most entitled and emotionally incapable generation to ever exist. You might want to stop throwing stones in glass houses.

 

2 hours ago, laymanpigeon said:

Atari could have priced Jaguar to 300USD and Sega CD add-on for Genesis was released over a year ago at 300USD before Jaguar.

Again, you're demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the financial realities of both companies at that period of time. Sega was at their peak, and thus could afford (or at least so they thought) to take risks on luxuries such as the Sega CD. Not that I would use it as an example of a successful product, though, so I fail to see why you're trying to compare the Jaguar to it in any way. Atari, meanwhile, had been quite steadily shrinking, having just pulled out of the computer market and had very little revenue coming in at the time the Jag was released. When you're company is doing that poorly, it makes sense not to overprice the one product that is your last chance to stay alive. And none of that even touches on whether or not just putting a 68020 or 030 in the Jag would have meant instant success (hint: lol fuck no). The only one uttering nonsense here is you.

[Punisher5.0]

Alright this thread has exceeded its quota of numberwang. Any more wangin' will result in getting kicked out of the thread. Lets get back on topic

[Cyprian]

4 hours ago, 42bs said:

According the FAQ, for dev-systems only.

Quote

"Atari were keen to use a 68K family device, and we looked closely at
   various members.  We did actually build a couple of 68030 versions of the
   early beta developers systems, and for a while were going to use a 68020.
   However, this turned out too expensive.

 

On 9/9/2024 at 10:58 PM, DEATH said:

If it had been able to keep the planned frequency of 40Mhz the Jaguar ...

 

that sounds very interesting, 40MHz Jaguar with 68030 would be awesome

 

 

 

[42bs]

8 minutes ago, Cyprian said:

that sounds very interesting, 40MHz Jaguar with 68030 would be awesome

But even at 32MHz Tom/Jerry are heating so much that they need active cooling.
 

But since it is possible to write stuff for the Jagaur w/o using the 68k, there is no need for a quicker (25MHz) or more enhanced (68020/030) version.

Anyway, non of this make NG games possible or impossible. (hint: back to topic 😛 )

[phoenixdownita]

We do know some about Jag + beefier CPU:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_CoJag

 

https://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=778
 

Not sure about their increased costs and games are all 2D (well only 2 released) so it is hard to judge if the beefed up HW was enough of a change to accommodate the thirst for 3D games.

 

Area 51 (020)

 

 

Maximum Force (R3000)

 

Game genre is so similar, wonder if it is the same engine recompiled.

 

Note: I can’t really see any cd32 game that would have helped the jag per se against Sat/PS1.

Edited September 12 by phoenixdownita

[laymanpigeon]

3 hours ago, 42bs said:

But even at 32MHz Tom/Jerry are heating so much that they need active cooling.
 

But since it is possible to write stuff for the Jagaur w/o using the 68k, there is no need for a quicker (25MHz) or more enhanced (68020/030) version.

Anyway, non of this make NG games possible or impossible. (hint: back to topic 😛 )

Increasing clock by 25 percent doubles power consumption of processor, issue is not only cooling the processor as is if motherboard and power supply brick can deliver needed wattage. Removing 68HC000 thus also allowing for motherboard to be simplified a little might barely provide enough budget for active cooling.

 

Due to hardware bug cartridge limitation is 6MB when Neo Geo games were at least twice as large, CD-ROM drive would solve issue of storing data yet then more RAM is needed and for arcade perfect port of Neo Geo games Saturn could do it if 4 megabyte RAM expansion was added that is inserted into cartridge slot.

[DEATH]

please stop using chatgpt as a reference...

[DEATH]

31 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

Due to hardware bug cartridge limitation is 6MB

What... but... stop, enough. There is absolutely no bug that limits the cartridge port to 6MB! It was designed that way.

omg....

[DEATH]

3 hours ago, 42bs said:

But even at 32MHz Tom/Jerry are heating so much that they need active cooling.
 

But since it is possible to write stuff for the Jagaur w/o using the 68k, there is no need for a quicker (25MHz) or more enhanced (68020/030) version.

Anyway, non of this make NG games possible or impossible. (hint: back to topic 😛 )

There is no need for active cooling for TOM and JERRY at 32Mhz, only for the 68000. And, from my memory, only SCPCD tried the experiment and he specified that he had put coolers and a fan on the 68000 as a precaution. But it is true that originally TOM already heats up quite a bit when it comes to the 68000 it is also because in his tests it went beyond 16Mhz and except CMOS version it heats up very quickly when you increase the frequency even when it does nothing.

Also, (because I'm not going to make 1000 posts to respond to the other troll's ramblings...) when I mentioned that the Jaguar was planned to run at 40Mhz (and everyone jumped on that number, especially that other guy...), they obviously didn't read it well. I was talking about the Jaguar ChipSet and not the console (I think I mentioned it anyway). That was the name of the "Jaguar" ChipSet proposed by Flare II when they hadn't yet been bought by Atari and which was mostly composed of "TOM". Atari very quickly backed down on the primary characteristics of the Chipset for cost and technicals reasons, some of which I've already mentioned. Like the fact that they immediately abandoned the idea of using a 68030 (the CPU interface of the Jaguar chipset was designed for) or any 32bit processor, for same reasons. TOM's interface is designed for a 68000 and only a 68000. If you want to run something else you have to add a whole bunch of more or less complex circuitry to simulate the 68000 interface (which is the case in CoJag).
Period.

[DEATH]

3 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

We do know some about Jag + beefier CPU:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_CoJag

 

https://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=778
 

Not sure about their increased costs and games are all 2D (well only 2 released) so it is hard to judge if the beefed up HW was enough of a change to accommodate the thirst for 3D games.

 

Area 51 (020)

 

 

Maximum Force (R3000)

 

Game genre is so similar, wonder if it is the same engine recompiled.

 

Note: I can’t really see any cd32 game that would have helped the jag per se against Sat/PS1.

The CoJag is not just a Jaguar with a bigger CPU. Everything else is different. There is between 4 and 8MB of RAM depending on the game (maybe only 6MB I don't remember very well but there are cards designed for 8MB) itself accompanied by additional circuit to switch from a dual WE mode to a dual CAS mode (because dual WE memories are rare and do not seem to exist in a higher capacity version) because TOM is only designed for dual WE, the ROM BUS is on 64bit, there is a hard drive, probably some additional circuits to correct bugs when switching to a 32bit CPU interface etc. etc.

[DEATH]

5 hours ago, Punisher5.0 said:

Alright this thread has exceeded its quota of numberwang. Any more wangin' will result in getting kicked out of the thread. Lets get back on topic

You are right.
So to get back to the subject it's simple: The Neo-Geo is NOT a home console. It's an arcade machine that they also sold in a shell resembling a home console, but it remains a 2D arcade machine with all that implies about its very specific operation in the arcade. As for the Jaguar, it's a home console, with all that implies as constraints.
So, it is very unlikely that it will be possible to make a pixel perfect port of a Neo-Geo game on the Jaguar.
Period

But if you want to prove the opposite, do it. I would be the first delighted. Don't throw out numbers you don't understand, a story about Atari and the Jaguar that you don't know, knowledge, skills that you don't have.

[+madman]

Never mind...trying to stay on topic.