Songbird Public Lecture #2

[Fadest]

So you mean the fact you cannot buy (or download illagally then pay someone to have your conscience right) a game that is not yet for sale in its full & complete version (the Jagfest Edition is like MicroVaders a Preview Edition) a tragedy ?

But you think the game is good, am I correct ?

[Brek Martin]

18 hours ago, Fadest said:

So you mean the fact you cannot buy (or download illagally then pay someone to have your conscience right) a game that is not yet for sale in its full & complete version (the Jagfest Edition is like MicroVaders a Preview Edition) a tragedy ?

But you think the game is good, am I correct ?

Please try not to twist my words. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and clarify what I think you already know.

I can not buy through the normal means of distribution either whenever it goes on sale because I have two unresolved issues

that would be against my ethics to buy again unless resolved.

I purchased a MicroVaders incomplete version based on gameplay seen on video too.

 

Also, I have been understood in my position, and I'm not happy with myself for continuing to post in this thread beyond that.

It looks too much like me validating myself rather then simply making a statement, and making sure it isn't misunderstood.

I'm a moron for participating in this thread beyond page one, and clarifying myself for one comment.

 

 

 

 

[+Stephen]

2 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

I have two unresolved issues

that would be against my ethics to buy again

Can you please, in your best imitation of understandable English, try to explain to the rest of us simple folk, what in the absolute f**k this means?

[Brek Martin]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Can you please, in your best imitation of understandable English, try to explain to the rest of us simple folk, what in the absolute f**k this means?

What do you think this thread is about? Do you honestly think I'm in a position to simply order another game from Songbird?

 

PFG 9000:

"

If you had a bad experience with a seller, move on and don't buy anything else from him.  Maybe leave a bad review or something....but aggregate reviews work just like this topic.  There is a general consensus, and there are outliers.  Your experience here is an outlier.

"

 

I agree roughly. Therefore I can't buy any more games.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, well even though I tried to distance myself, most people agree, shame on me!

Fool me a third time, I'm just a Fing idiot

 

But I couldn't know I was the only "outlier" until I posted a thread like this.

Outliers sometimes tend not to be as vocal as I have, and after this thread I could hardly blame them.

It looks good for Carl/Songbird that no other outliers spoke up.

 

ninjabba:

"

I believe this is against forum rules, as stated in the AA guidelines the threads should encourage discussion and this is stating the opposite. Close & warning would be good 

"

You discuss all you want. I can end my participation any time I want.

Well.. I'd like to think that, but to be honest I've restarted several times after telling myself I was done here.

 

I am still happy for the thread to be closed by the way.

I apologise to those members of the forum, particularly those who haven't posted here, simply for the negativity.

The thread wasn't meant to continually be bumped, etc. but I can't delete stuff now either,

and some of the questions asked of me shouldn't remain unanswered or it would look dishonest on my part.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18 by Brek Martin

[Brek Martin]

On 8/14/2024 at 7:31 PM, 42bs said:

Banning someone because of a short rant is overkill. There are open questions. And maybe we see a reaction from Carl.

The forum no longer has punitive power Bastian. Banning me would only signal agreement rather than enact practical punishment.

I told you privately in Discord that my participation would be temporary, and that I hope to contribute in the time I'm here,

because I know that my focus eventually shifts to something else. That was out of respect for your time.

I don't think any "Random" comes along and tells you that in advance. It's not to do with this by the way. It happened when EEPROM functions were done.

 

Carl could not have spoken maybe because I'm viewed by him as volatile, or maybe participation in a thread like this poses a risk.

Maybe he is not equipped to deal with a conflict or criticism. Maybe he doesn't know how to wrong the right if he wanted to.

The answer couldn't be guessed.

 

You know just as well as I do that there is more to this, and I do suggest, out of consideration for the next random who comes,

that it is made clear, the purpose of the Game Drive that this forum supports, and what exactly constitutes "Your Games" that it is marketed for backing up. Especially where that new person enters through a programming section.

The inconsistency is still there.

 

 

[Fadest]

10 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

Please try not to twist my words.

I do not try to twist your words, english is not my main language, and at first read of your post, my understanding was that you found Cosmocats so bad that it was a tragedy.

Then after rereading closely I had another interpretation.

So I just wanted to check what the real problem was.

[roots.genoa]

2 minutes ago, Fadest said:

english is not my main language

And I suspect it's not his either. I was surprised when he mentioned he was from Australia, but I'm wondering if he actually meant Austria, especially since he seems to know 42bs who is German.

[42bs]

2 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

And I suspect it's not his either. I was surprised when he mentioned he was from Australia, but I'm wondering if he actually meant Austria, especially since he seems to know 42bs who is German.

He is from Australia. But yes, I also have problems understanding what he wants to say.

"Knowing" is a big word. We had our "discussions".

[+jgkspsx]

4 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

And I suspect it's not his either. I was surprised when he mentioned he was from Australia, but I'm wondering if he actually meant Austria, especially since he seems to know 42bs who is German.

(stolen from reddit)

[roots.genoa]

6 hours ago, 42bs said:

He is from Australia. But yes, I also have problems understanding what he wants to say.

"Knowing" is a big word. We had our "discussions".

Thanks for the clarification. And yes, I suspected that "knowing" was an exaggeration, but I thought that maybe you had discussions in German or something.

 

To be fair, in France we have a lot of people who can't write proper French either. 😅

Edited August 18 by roots.genoa

[doctor_shred]

I am amazed that this topic has so much milage but to add my penny's worth:

I've been buying stuff off Carl (Songbird) since about 1999 when Skyhammer for the Jag was first released. I've always found him a 100% sound, solid individual to deal with. He has integrity in spades and, as previously been said, has done more than most for the Lynx and Jag scene over the years, especially when it wasn't "cool" to be in to retro systems. 

 

I sympathise with the OP regarding the postage charge on their order but contacting Songbird BEFORE paying would have been my approach to this. If you're not happy don't pay, simple as that.

 

I feel reaching out to people directly in the first instance is always better than slagging them off in a public forum.

 

I have no issue with purchasing from Songbird as I've literally been doing so for 25 years without a problem. 

[Brek Martin]

On 8/30/2024 at 7:27 AM, doctor_shred said:

 

I feel reaching out to people directly in the first instance is always better than slagging them off in a public forum.

 

There's always Paypal dispute resolution, which I'm surprised nobody suggested (or maybe not).

 

Shortly after my last post here, I was looking at Paypal, noticed the postage charge was itemised, and knew right away I'd get a refund.

I only asked for either postage to be refunded, or the game to be sent, same as posted here.

I shared all information including the same snapshot with the same comment posted here, rather than just stating the item didn't show up.

Postage was refunded, and he must have given it some thought because the entire game was refunded straight after.

 

Had I not destroyed the cartridge out of curiosity, I'd have gotten a refund for Microvaders too... The cart that didn't fit a Lynx model 1.

I wish I'd done that. I never disclosed here that I did tell Carl I had a Lynx 1 the same day I ordered MicroVaders.

I offered to test it (which is a bad idea if you also intend to program for a platform), and was asked what hardware I have then.

 

I wouldn't have initially chosen to get a refund AND make a thread like this, and I'm still unsure if this reply is being fair, or stirring the pot more, but this reply does offer completeness, I prefer not to talk to Carl after the Microvaders transaction, and it did take a third party to get a refund.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jerseystyle]

On 9/6/2024 at 11:24 AM, Brek Martin said:

There's always Paypal dispute resolution, which I'm surprised nobody suggested (or maybe not).

 

Shortly after my last post here, I was looking at Paypal, noticed the postage charge was itemised, and knew right away I'd get a refund.

I only asked for either postage to be refunded, or the game to be sent, same as posted here.

I shared all information including the same snapshot with the same comment posted here, rather than just stating the item didn't show up.

Postage was refunded, and he must have given it some thought because the entire game was refunded straight after.

 

Had I not destroyed the cartridge out of curiosity, I'd have gotten a refund for Microvaders too... The cart that didn't fit a Lynx model 1.

I wish I'd done that. I never disclosed here that I did tell Carl I had a Lynx 1 the same day I ordered MicroVaders.

I offered to test it (which is a bad idea if you also intend to program for a platform), and was asked what hardware I have then.

 

I wouldn't have initially chosen to get a refund AND make a thread like this, and I'm still unsure if this reply is being fair, or stirring the pot more, but this reply does offer completeness, I prefer not to talk to Carl after the Microvaders transaction, and it did take a third party to get a refund.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[phuzaxeman]

On 8/8/2024 at 7:17 PM, Brek Martin said:

Hi,
In May of 2024 I purchased MicroVaders ten level preview cartridge from Songbird site,
and when the cartridge arrived, it wouldn't fit in a Lynx model 1 without serious damage to the console,
or, as subsequently suggested by Carl, sanding back the cartridge plastic backshell.
This means you either ruin the thing that was potentially purchased as a collector's item so you can play it,
or buy a cartridge dumper, play the game from flash cartridge, in order to play it, preserving the cartridge.
I did the later, as was my intention when purchasing it.
The experience forcing that choice on me lead me to resolve never to buy anything from Songbird again.

 

In early July 2024, I first made sure that I could source a ROM file for Alpine Games if I purchased it,
and then purchased it from Songbird, with the message shown in the attached image of the order,
that Carl need not send any physical cartridge. A $40US component of this order was postage and handling.
The game itself is quoted as $69.95US, and there's no Paypal link to pay arbitrary amounts.

 

More than a month has now passed since I ordered Alpine Games.
MicroVaders arrived well within a month, and prior to that, tracking information was provided.

 

When Carl recieved my Alpine Games order, several actions could have been taken that reflect integrity.
He could have:
* Sent the game anyway, because, for example, that's how he does business. ROMs weren't offered for sale.
* Refund the entire payment, because, for example again, perhaps this is simply not how he does business.
* Refund the postage to my paypal account. This seems reasonable to me. Carl has no claim to that money.

 

Another outcome appears to be what has actually happened:
* Keep the entire payment and not send anything. This is unfair and unjust, and reflects entitlement in my view.

 

In contrast to this experience, I ordered a replacement screen from K-Retro in May, and after finalising my order
and making payment, I realised I still needed a 3D printed LCD mask as part of the installation, 
and quickly made another order with it's own postage and payment.
Igor quickly messaged me without being prompted by me, offering to refund one of those postage payments,
stating quite clearly that money wouldn't be spent, and was not his to keep.

 

I guess all of the above is a bunch of statements that is supposed to communicate something.
No questions were asked, so if you reply it will be interesting what you contribute.
I'm aware Songbird has many happy customers, but those customers should also perhaps know why one isn't.

 

 

Hi, when you bought MicroVaders, you said that "the experience forcing that choice on me lead me to resolve never to buy anything from Songbird again."

But then you bought Alpine Games the following month. Why did you buy Alpine Games? Also, why ask for only the ROM file when Songbird is selling a different game by a different company. 

Edited September 7 by phuzaxeman

[Brek Martin]

3 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Hi, when you bought MicroVaders, you said that "the experience forcing that choice on me lead me to resolve never to buy anything from Songbird again."

But then you bought Alpine Games the following month. Why did you buy Alpine Games? Also, why ask for only the ROM file when Songbird is selling a different game by a different company. 

Fair question, but it's been answered.

 

 

@jerseystyle

I haven't really returned. As I said from the beginning, my involvement with any platform is temporary.

The interest loses potency, I move on to the next thing that captures attention, hopefully having left some contribution.

My very first post here (under a different account that isn't my real name) asks what is needed, not for help.

Your input prompt should go something like Brek has moved on, but looks back with some disappointment.

Some people here did offer much needed help understanding the Lynx, and I'm thankful to them.

 

Basically I was done with the thread, but if I had not posted the above, someone could come back a year later

when I'm no longer looking, and say "Hey, he got a refund after all that and didn't tell us!".

 

 

 

Edited September 8 by Brek Martin

[jerseystyle]

1 hour ago, Brek Martin said:

Fair question, but it's been answered.

 

 

@jerseystyle

I haven't really returned. As I said from the beginning, my involvement with any platform is temporary.

The interest loses potency, I move on to the next thing that captures attention, hopefully having left some contribution.

My very first post here (under a different account that isn't my real name) asks what is needed, not for help.

Your input prompt should go something like Brek has moved on, but looks back with some disappointment.

Some people here did offer much needed help understanding the Lynx, and I'm thankful to them.

 

Basically I was done with the thread, but if I had not posted the above, someone could come back a year later

when I'm no longer looking, and say "Hey, he got a refund after all that and didn't tell us!".

 

 

 

I can almost taste the smugness oozing from the pores of your post.  

[+Stephen]

3 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

My very first post here (under a different account

Pretty egregious violation of the terms of service of the forum, but hey, you do you.

[Brek Martin]

2 hours ago, jerseystyle said:

I can almost taste the smugness oozing from the pores of your post.  

There's some smugness knowing I'd get postage refunded as soon as an unbiased party looked at it.

There's also some smugness that things are set up, and have already been said to others, which demonstrate my truthfulness,

and I don't particularly want anyone thinking I left over a tantrum or anything like that.

 

@Stephen

For clarity, I made six posts, and lost access to the account, then used my real name,

but right you are. It appears no user can have multiple accounts.

Admin can feel free to disable both of them.

If that happens, I'd prefer Admin also delete any and all content made by both of them as well.

 

https://forums.atariage.com/profile/86075-art/

 

 

I'll try to be clear, but it's a rant:

First I joined the forum looking to write for the Lynx. I'm a bit of a gamer as well,

so I buy some games, including some for sale homebrew, and a flashcart just like the marketed here,

advertised as for "backing up your games".

Then I'm spoken to like a criminal for asking about how to read and copy one of those games marketed right here

onto the flashcart very similar to the one marketed here on this forum.

It's totally legal to back up games or any music, video, or software in Australia. It's not a debate.

There's a contradiction right there that has still not been resolved to my knowledge.

Don't offer flash carts for sale if they are evil. Bastian is surely the only Human on Earth using it exclusively for his own homebrew.

I don't mean to keep bashing Bastian here, because in fairness, that was resolved, and he later helped with programming.

 

The game arrives and the cart doesn't even fit, so I can't even play it as you're supposed to, 

and naturally I'm pissed. The criminal that I am naturally has no choice but to copy the cart,

and then I'm left with no choice but to buy a cart dumper that Carl could have saved me from buying.

I didn't even think of Paypal buyer protection then. Carl's resolution is to sand the cart with sandpaper.

That's my last communication with him. I deemed him incapable of offering an acceptable resolution.

My arcing up over that on Discord creates more than a little discord, and I'm told the community would be better off without me, among other things.

I'm told that I'm talking abut Carl on a forum where he can read it as if I should be talking about it behind his back instead.

I destroyed the cart after dumping it out of sheer curiosity about which part is too thick.

If the PCB was ok, a different backshell could potentially take it's place. Information that could potentially help others as well.

 

If anyone thinks this is all ok, then I actually think you're a moron. I really do. Possibly clouded by fanboy-ism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8 by Brek Martin

[+Sauron]

1 hour ago, Brek Martin said:

That's my last communication with him. I deemed him incapable of offering an acceptable resolution.

That's where you went completely off the rails. Despite not getting what you wanted from the first transaction, you then decided to make another transaction with him, only this time just assuming that it was ok for you to just download the ROM and that the postage would automatically be refunded WITHOUT COMMUNICATING WITH HIM. Then, WITHOUT ANY FURTHER COMMUNICATION ON YOUR END, you decided to post a public rant lambasting him for not catering to your own desires despite the fact that there was NO COMMUNICATION with him to clear up that just paying for the ROM that you downloaded would be ok. I'm amazed that you still haven't caught on how you share at least equally in the fault of these transactions (more than that, IMO, but I'm trying to be fair here) yet still refuse to fix the main problem on your end while still doubling down on all of this somehow being Carl's fault. It shouldn't be that hard. In fact, I've given some not so subtle hints in this post how you could've helped to make sure that things went more smoothly in both transactions.

 

[Brek Martin]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

That's where you went completely off the rails. Despite not getting what you wanted from the first transaction, you then decided to make another transaction with him, only this time just assuming that it was ok for you to just download the ROM and that the postage would automatically be refunded WITHOUT COMMUNICATING WITH HIM. Then, WITHOUT ANY FURTHER COMMUNICATION ON YOUR END, you decided to post a public rant lambasting him for not catering to your own desires despite the fact that there was NO COMMUNICATION with him to clear up that just paying for the ROM that you downloaded would be ok. I'm amazed that you still haven't caught on how you share at least equally in the fault of these transactions (more than that, IMO, but I'm trying to be fair here) yet still refuse to fix the main problem on your end while still doubling down on all of this somehow being Carl's fault. It shouldn't be that hard. In fact, I've given some not so subtle hints in this post how you could've helped to make sure that things went more smoothly in both transactions.

 

I don't entirely disagree with you, but also, not many people in this thread could be expected to know the rest of the situation that set this up.

My lack of communication in itself provided options outlined in the first post. I wouldn't have been upset if the second game was actually sent,

so long as it actually fit. I strongly suspect that Carl knew full well what the comment in my second purchase actually meant, even if it isn't obvious to you. He could have refunded the entire amount at that point if he doesn't want to acknowledge ROMs. Why keep any money then?

 

I've previously admitted in this thread that making a second purchase was a failure of my own integrity, after previously resolving within myself

not to purchase again. Specifically, my "speech" not being aligned with my actions, even if the "speech" was only a thought to myself.

Acquiring the ROM, and then paying for it, those actions were taken to remove agency from Carl, not provide it, and that was done to take control

away from someone who has already demonstrated poor form in my view, and could cause me further upset. It's defensive, and for good reason.

Far more upset than Carl could be held responsible for, occurred as a result of my first transaction.

 

It has been posed here as if the second purchase was some kind of trap, so I could then launch my attack on Carl, but that's ridiculous.

I'm not quite that childish. The people who agreed to provide the ROM obviously saw something wrong with the first transaction, and/or it's surrounding circumstances.

I'm the only one who has been insulted in this thread, except for the above post four pages in, where I might qualify someone as a moron.

I also have provided a contrasting transaction where I double ordered, and another business owner who advertises here, simply combined postage

without any interaction from me.

 

I don't understand what comes across as smug about any of this to be honest.

If I want to seek truth and justice, "rightness" etc. I just have to imagine all of this happening to someone else,

Then I'm sure of myself, and stop caring what a forum of people think.

I'm not characterising Carl as the devil even. I've acknowledged it appears things are mostly fine. I still got ripped off. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8 by Brek Martin

[roots.genoa]

4 hours ago, jerseystyle said:

I can almost taste the smugness oozing from the pores of your post.  

Also using a new line after each sentence makes his posts look like some kind of poem, which doesn't help.

[obschan]

I think it's time to lock this and let it disappear on its own...

[Brek Martin]

26 minutes ago, obschan said:

I think it's time to lock this and let it disappear on its own...

Maybe that's something that can be universally agreed upon, without any qualifiers even  

 

@roots.genoa

Quite a strange way to dig deep for a criticism, but ok.

Those poems remain my property by the way. Once you share any art or work with the public, you lose CONTROL of it.

You do not lose OWNERSHIP of it.

I think you might have heard a phrase at some time in your life, and then more recently misquoted it.

 

 

Edited September 8 by Brek Martin

[roots.genoa]

2 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

Quite a strange way to dig deep for a criticism, but ok.

It wasn't a criticism, just a remark. But added to your tone, it tends to unwillingly make you sound more arrogant than you are (or want to be).

2 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

Those poems remain my property by the way. Once you share any art or work with the public, you lose CONTROL of it.

You do not lose OWNERSHIP of it.

I think you might have heard a phrase at some time in your life, and then more recently misquoted it.

I talked about this subject earlier yes, but I wasn't misquoting anyone since it was my own opinion. And I was just talking from a moral standpoint. I'm aware an artist doesn't lose ownership of their work, but they don't have to be a dick about it either. 😉 But don't worry, I won't do anything with your poems (and nobody else will, probably).

[jerseystyle]

11 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

There's some smugness knowing I'd get postage refunded as soon as an unbiased party looked at it.

There's also some smugness that things are set up, and have already been said to others, which demonstrate my truthfulness,

and I don't particularly want anyone thinking I left over a tantrum or anything like that.

 

@Stephen

For clarity, I made six posts, and lost access to the account, then used my real name,

but right you are. It appears no user can have multiple accounts.

Admin can feel free to disable both of them.

If that happens, I'd prefer Admin also delete any and all content made by both of them as well.

 

https://forums.atariage.com/profile/86075-art/

 

 

I'll try to be clear, but it's a rant:

First I joined the forum looking to write for the Lynx. I'm a bit of a gamer as well,

so I buy some games, including some for sale homebrew, and a flashcart just like the marketed here,

advertised as for "backing up your games".

Then I'm spoken to like a criminal for asking about how to read and copy one of those games marketed right here

onto the flashcart very similar to the one marketed here on this forum.

It's totally legal to back up games or any music, video, or software in Australia. It's not a debate.

There's a contradiction right there that has still not been resolved to my knowledge.

Don't offer flash carts for sale if they are evil. Bastian is surely the only Human on Earth using it exclusively for his own homebrew.

I don't mean to keep bashing Bastian here, because in fairness, that was resolved, and he later helped with programming.

 

The game arrives and the cart doesn't even fit, so I can't even play it as you're supposed to, 

and naturally I'm pissed. The criminal that I am naturally has no choice but to copy the cart,

and then I'm left with no choice but to buy a cart dumper that Carl could have saved me from buying.

I didn't even think of Paypal buyer protection then. Carl's resolution is to sand the cart with sandpaper.

That's my last communication with him. I deemed him incapable of offering an acceptable resolution.

My arcing up over that on Discord creates more than a little discord, and I'm told the community would be better off without me, among other things.

I'm told that I'm talking abut Carl on a forum where he can read it as if I should be talking about it behind his back instead.

I destroyed the cart after dumping it out of sheer curiosity about which part is too thick.

If the PCB was ok, a different backshell could potentially take it's place. Information that could potentially help others as well.

 

If anyone thinks this is all ok, then I actually think you're a moron. I really do. Possibly clouded by fanboy-ism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You know that story about meeting an asshole at a party? I’ve never in my life been asked to leave a forum but in your answer you’ve alluded to bring asked to move on multiple times. It… surely… it can’t be an issue with how you talk to/about people, could it? No! Everyone else is wrong!