Songbird Public Lecture #2

[Brek Martin]

4 hours ago, Stephen said:

So - if I want the ROM to a game, all I have to do is email a store, demand it, and then I am entitled to it?  Pretty cool.

A Strawman, and you know it, so long as you know the meaning of the term.

7 hours ago, jerseystyle said:

Sure, bud. How many times did you question Carl’s intelligence, ethics, etc?

 

But that isn’t what you did. You placed another order (and even the language used in your second order was passive aggressive) with ridiculous requests in it, waited for it to not go as you wanted, then came here to disparage someone who has long standing ties to the community and brought a lot of stuff into the Atari scene over the years. You basically set a trap so that you could smear him publicly. 
 

 

I'm talking originally. It was 2-3 months ago. I don't believe I rubbished anybody at the time.

I could have gone blasting every YouTube video that makes mention of the game, for example.

The second order could certainly appear as you think, but I actually expected the comment to be ignored,

and the game to be sent as answer to my question (ie. That's how I do business).

Time was needed to make sure the physical game didn't actually arrive here.

 

Speaking of time...

You know what else could have happened? Carl could have taken the initiative to correct his mistake/s at any time.

 

It appears I've unwillingly entered an argument about whether I was ripped off once or twice.

I was objectively ripped off. The first failure of integrity (workability) is selling something that doesn't match reasonable expectation (what was advertised).

The second... well the purpose of me coming back to post here isn't to convince anyone of anything,

but to be understood. It occurs to me that Stephen Moss made the first sensible post, but misunderstood me.

 

 

 

[Brek Martin]

7 hours ago, jerseystyle said:

Sure, bud. How many times did you question Carl’s intelligence, ethics, etc?

Please point me specifically to where I questioned Carl's intelligence, and I will apologise (just for that), and correct myself.

Or otherwise please correct yourself. Nothing I've said here is of my own imaginings. It's character and ethics that I questioned.

 

It takes considerable intelligence to have written MicroVaders, and I never once spoke badly of the game itself once I spent more money on a dumper to be able to play it. In fact, the opposite continued to happen.

I have passed the game on to someone else, just as you could with a physical cartridge. That means I no longer have any right to it.

It has bad emotional associations for me obviously, and we play computer games largely for emotional satisfaction.

Alpine Games is a little different.

Now for the prudent, the answer to a question that has been previously asked is answered in this post.

 

 

 

Edited August 13 by Brek Martin

[Brek Martin]

4 hours ago, Fadest said:

Hard to comment about this as I am also publisher, like Carl and I know this is really tough job and Carl is doing it well for so many years...

Each publisher have its own decisions about digital, and every choice (sell it, give it, do not put it public) is respectable.

 

This being said, I'd like to add a few point to your reflexion :

- refunding postage fees : remeber that when you pay x USD to a shop, the seller will not get the total amount, there are the paypal fees (can be over 5%), the local taxes, ... For Yastuna Games, I give 13% of every income (goods and postage) to the french government (but I do not have to deal with VAT as I am a small business). Than means that with the Paypal fees, it is around 20% that just disappear. When I have tor efund, this money is lost (I cannot claim it back to Paypal/government)

- digital policy and rights : a publisher can have rights to make physical goods but not rights on digital release. Usually, I am only asking authors rights for a single batch of physical goods (with tacit reconduction), and they keep the rights for digital release. This means I can not distribute it. I don't know for Alpine Games, but for A Bug's Trip Redux (my game published by Carl), he has rights on physical release, Evercade release, but not digital release, this means he cannot distribute it. This is the agreement we made.

 

So things may seems easy, but reality occurs sometimes...

I don't know if you wanted a reply, but it's a fair post.

If I ordered Alpine Games and said not to post it, the physical copy could be tossed in the bin. Case closed.

That's what I'd do with it if it were sent. I might have kept the cartridge if it fit my Lynx, but probably not.

 

As an aside from what the thread is about...

I find the dis-acknowledgement of ROM files ridiculous, but agree that's the prerogative of the publisher, and may be what customers prefer.

The only practical protection against piracy of Lynx games appears to be the box and printed material that you wouldn't get if you copied a file.

But what if you don't care about the printed material? I obviously don't. Then you only rely on integrity of the customer.

Right now, you can Google Zaku, and download it, and yet I have contacted the publisher asking to pay for the file with no response after a month. An internal conflict arises if I want the game, but am unable to pay for it. I understand that I'm not typical in this regard,

but publishers clearly have not taken full advantage... actually legit advantage where I try to throw cash at companies like yours.

In this regard maybe I could question someone's intelligence, but I must admit I lack the experience of operating such a business.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jerseystyle]

2 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

Please point me specifically to where I questioned Carl's intelligence, and I will apologise (just for that), and correct myself.

Or otherwise please correct yourself. Nothing I've said here is of my own imaginings. It's character and ethics that I questioned.

 

It takes considerable intelligence to have written MicroVaders, and I never once spoke badly of the game itself once I spent more money on a dumper to be able to play it. In fact, the opposite continued to happen.

I have passed the game on to someone else, just as you could with a physical cartridge. That means I no longer have any right to it.

It has bad emotional associations for me obviously, and we play computer games largely for emotional satisfaction.

Alpine Games is a little different.

Now for the prudent, the answer to a question that has been previously asked is answered in this post.

 

 

 

Okay, fair enough. You came in here and blasted the integrity and ethics of someone who has done a ton for the Atari community over the years. And has brought the Nuon back! You mentioned money… I can guarantee no one is getting rich off of the (awesome) re-boot  of Towers 2.  From what I can tell your contributions on here and other sites consist of talking down to people, which reminds me of LOTS of randos we’ve had the privilege of visiting us over the years and waxing on about how much they help the scene. Like I said, order 1 I get the issue, and am sorry that happened. Order 2 seems like you’re trying to troll people. 

Edited August 13 by jerseystyle

[+Sauron]

4 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

A Strawman, and you know it, so long as you know the meaning of the term.

It's no strawman, as this is exactly what you did with your order for Alpine Games.

 

4 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

I'm talking originally. It was 2-3 months ago. I don't believe I rubbished anybody at the time.

I could have gone blasting every YouTube video that makes mention of the game, for example.

The second order could certainly appear as you think, but I actually expected the comment to be ignored,

and the game to be sent as answer to my question (ie. That's how I do business).

Time was needed to make sure the physical game didn't actually arrive here.

Regarding your original order, I agree with jerseystyle above, it's an unfortunate incident that should be resolved in some way. I'd have to go back through this thread to see what steps (if any) were taken to resolve the issue after his initial response to you, but overall it's understandable why you wouldn't be happy. This, however, is a completely different case from your second order.

 

4 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

Speaking of time...

You know what else could have happened? Carl could have taken the initiative to correct his mistake/s at any time.

Are you sure he hasn't done so or is not willing to do so? One thing that people tend to forget is that smaller publishers like Songbird aren't Amazon. They don't have distribution centers to guarantee next-day delivery or teams of customer service reps to handle inquiries within a certain amount of time. AFAIK, Carl runs Songbird on his own on top of working a full-time job, and I know he was involved with the recent JagFest that took place, which in itself probably took up quite a bit of his time. His replies may come slowly due to that. Obviously I can't speak for him, but in general dealing with smaller businesses like his that are supporting a niche hobby requires a measure of patience. Not saying that you haven't had any, but from your replies it appears you made too many assumptions about things which certainly doesn't help your case.

 

2 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

As an aside from what the thread is about...

I find the dis-acknowledgement of ROM files ridiculous, but agree that's the prerogative of the publisher, and may be what customers prefer.

I won't argue with this at all. I've made my own thoughts on this clear in other threads. However, even with that it can take time to work on a solution that allows publishers to sell digital copies of their games without having to set up shop on sites like itch.io. Albert is currently working on a digital storefront for this website, and it'll probably still be some time before it's ready to go. I have no idea what Carl is doing in regards to this with Songbird, but again I'd say that patience is required. And again there is the whole rights issue that Fadest mentioned earlier.

[Brek Martin]

1 hour ago, jerseystyle said:

Okay, fair enough. You came in here and blasted the integrity and ethics of someone who has done a ton for the Atari community over the years. And has brought the Nuon back! You mentioned money… I can guarantee no one is getting rich off of the (awesome) re-boot  of Towers 2.  From what I can tell your contributions on here and other sites consist of talking down to people, which reminds me of LOTS of randos we’ve had the privilege of visiting us over the years and waxing on about how much they help the scene. Like I said, order 1 I get the issue, and am sorry that happened. Order 2 seems like you’re trying to troll people. 

Did those randos come here stating their intention was to contribute,

and then take the time to learn how to write for a platform, and then do so within the space of a few months? I suspect not.

You can think what you like of my contributions, but they are there, and no hardware or software creates itself.

I could say it's you who is trolling.

 

I'd ask for specific examples of the talking down to people, or more a pattern of it, but it would lead to opinion based generalities in a thread I've tried very hard to keep factual.

If I exhibit a pattern of talking down to people here or anywhere (generally speaking) you should call it out then and there.

This thread is already a Google result for my rather unusual name, so I have to stand by what I say now in perpetuity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brek Martin]

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

It's no strawman, as this is exactly what you did with your order for Alpine Games.

 

 

No I didn't.

 

After I received MicroVaders, and the cartridge didn't fit, I then did what I term "demanded" the ROM file that I was going to pay for a dumper to dump anyway.

At that point, Carl could have saved me that cost.

 

Before purchasing Alpine Games, I asked some others if they would give me the ROM file, provided that I show them proof that I purchased it.

More than one person agreed.

 

[+Sauron]

6 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

No I didn't.

 

After I received MicroVaders, and the cartridge didn't fit, I then did what I term "demanded" the ROM file that I was going to pay for a dumper to dump anyway.

At that point, Carl could have saved me that cost.

 

Before purchasing Alpine Games, I asked some others if they would give me the ROM file, provided that I show them proof that I purchased it.

More than one person agreed.

 

What happened with MicroVaders makes no difference. Carl either didn't have the rights to distribute the ROM file, or didn't want to deal with doing so. In either case, it was well within his rights to not provide the ROM file to you. With Alpines Games, what mattered was clearing up the issue with Songbird BEFORE making your order, which you admit to failing to do. Again, Carl doesn't deserve the blame for that.

 

[Brek Martin]

9 hours ago, Stephen said:

So - if I want the ROM to a game, all I have to do is email a store, demand it, and then I am entitled to it?  Pretty cool.

So is this a strawman or not?

 

Given that Carl is the author of MicroVaders, he can do as he pleases with it.

 

 

Edited August 14 by Brek Martin

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

[Brek Martin]

1 minute ago, OldSchoolRetroGamer said:

That's the same as your avatar

 

MicroVaders is a good game. You should check it out if you like Galaga-type shooters.

I shouldn't, but you should.

I now see straight through Suzy effects so that they might as well not exist, but the creativity IS there.

 

Anyway, This is not how a sensible conversation is progressed, and I have already stated that the purpose of this thread isn't to converse.

 

 

 

[+Sauron]

21 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

So is this a strawman or not?

 

Given that Carl is the author of MicroVaders, he can do as he pleases with it.

 

 

If he is the one who created the game, then yes. And that includes distributing the ROM file, which he is under no obligation to do, regardless of the circumstances.

 

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

31 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

That's the same as your avatar

 

🤔🤷🏻‍♂️

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, Brek Martin said:

So is this a strawman or not?

 

Given that Carl is the author of MicroVaders, he can do as he pleases with it.

 

 

I bought this too.  I got a cart.  It does not give me the right to the ROM, whether or not I dump it myself, or beg for it, etc.  I paid for the cart.  I paid to help Carl continue to support the Lynx.  I would never go anywhere and demand, tht I now am owed the right to a digital file, the ROM, because I bought this cart.  Even if I dumped it for myself, I would not share it.  it is not mine.  I purchased a single cart.  As I did for many systems sating back to 1978.  Atari NEVER owed me the ROM or source code to Combat, even when I bought my 2600.

 

THIS IS NOT STRAWMAN ARGUMENT.

[Brek Martin]

11 hours ago, Stephen said:

So - if I want the ROM to a game, all I have to do is email a store, demand it, and then I am entitled to it?  Pretty cool.

A strawman is the misrepresentation or corruption of someone's position, because it's easier to argue against the modified position than the real one.

The above post of yours is a strawman because it takes a small part of my words out of context, and mixed with something I never said or agree with. It's intellectually lazy.

The above quote is silly, it's not something I agree with, or ever said. it's nonsense that I have no need to answer.

 

Your recent post is more reasonable. The law here in Australia provides that we can backup any material we purchased, software or otherwise,

even when that backup involves bypassing a technological protection measure to some extent. At least where a hobbyist could do so themselves.

This March 2004 Digital Agenda Amendment was tested in court by Sony over the first Playstation chip modifications, and they lost.

They should have targeted actual piracy, rather than a mechanism to provide the usefulness of backups.

 

If you want to address or discuss my passing on that ROM to someone after I was done with it, you'll be doing that on your own.

 

 

[42bs]

Long thread with a lot of "arguments", so I missed it, but:

 

- Did Carl respond?

- If so, what did he write?

- If not, how often and how did you try to contact him?

[jerseystyle]

24 minutes ago, 42bs said:

Long thread with a lot of "arguments", so I missed it, but:

 

- Did Carl respond?

- If so, what did he write?

- If not, how often and how did you try to contact him?

THAT IS A STRAWMAN ARGUEMENT. I PROGRAM LYNX GAMES SO CAN INSULT OTHER MEMBERS. THAT LAST PART IS NOT A STRAWMAN ARGUMENT. I THINK.  BUT THE FIRST PART IS. 

[Jess Ragan]

8 minutes ago, jerseystyle said:

THAT IS A STRAWMAN ARGUEMENT. I PROGRAM LYNX GAMES SO CAN INSULT OTHER MEMBERS. THAT LAST PART IS NOT A STRAWMAN ARGUMENT. I THINK.  BUT THE FIRST PART IS. 

 

(turns down volume on JerseyStyle)

[roots.genoa]

4 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

Your recent post is more reasonable. The law here in Australia provides that we can backup any material we purchased, software or otherwise,

even when that backup involves bypassing a technological protection measure to some extent. At least where a hobbyist could do so themselves.

Which means you have indeed the right to dump your game (if you can), but it doesn't mean Carl has the obligation to provide you with the ROM.

[+jgkspsx]

This dude is just deranged.

[Ninjabba]

Can we lock this thread? Nothing good going on here. OP already stated that he didn't open this thread to converse in a previous post, so it can be locked.

[+jgkspsx]

7 minutes ago, Ninjabba said:

Can we lock this thread? Nothing good going on here. OP already stated that he didn't open this thread to converse in a previous post, so it can be locked.

How about we delete the thread and ban the OP? 🫣
 

In all seriousness, somebody like this is poisonous to a community, and I would hate to see the Lynx community, which is small enough already, hurt by this person's bizarre words and actions.

[42bs]

Banning someone because of a short rant is overkill. There are open questions. And maybe we see a reaction from Carl.

[Ninjabba]

7 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

Anyway, This is not how a sensible conversation is progressed, and I have already stated that the purpose of this thread isn't to converse.

I believe this is against forum rules, as stated in the AA guidelines the threads should encourage discussion and this is stating the opposite. Close & warning would be good 

[Fadest]

13 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

I find the dis-acknowledgement of ROM files ridiculous, but agree that's the prerogative of the publisher, and may be what customers prefer.

The only practical protection against piracy of Lynx games appears to be the box and printed material that you wouldn't get if you copied a file.

But what if you don't care about the printed material? I obviously don't. Then you only rely on integrity of the customer.

Right now, you can Google Zaku, and download it, and yet I have contacted the publisher asking to pay for the file with no response after a month. An internal conflict arises if I want the game, but am unable to pay for it. I understand that I'm not typical in this regard,

but publishers clearly have not taken full advantage... actually legit advantage where I try to throw cash at companies like yours.

In this regard maybe I could question someone's intelligence, but I must admit I lack the experience of operating such a business.

It's a deal between the publisher and and the author(s).

There is no common rules, even for a single publisher, let's examine the games I publish :

- DMG Deals Damage, Sheep It Up (GB) by Dr Ludos : ROM are available for free on Dr Ludos itch.io

- Nyghtmare (GBC) by Elvies : the author is selling the ROM on his itch.io and negociated with Blaze for inclusion on the Evercade Game of the Month program

- Critter Championship (Lynx) : Ninjabba prefer people to play the real thing on real cart on real Lynx (or Analogue), so the ROM is not available & I have no rights on digital ROM or Evercade like releases

- Vikings Saga (Lynx) :  Rygar prefer people to play the real thing on real cart on real Lynx (or Analogue), so the ROM is not available but I have the rights for releases like Evercade
- My own games (GB & Lynx) : digital releases vary for "free to download, free to build your own carts, free to sell them" (both Yastuna releases on Lynx) to not available as digital for the moment (A Bug's Trip Redux, Ynxa Treasure Quest), with inbetween situations like free digital (Asteroids Chasers, Raid on TriCity) or paid digital (CSS Traffic Regulation, Ynxa)

Edited August 14 by Fadest