The economics of new Atari 8-bit releases

[Bryan]

BTW...

 

I am excited by the work Mux is doing. I ran the Mario demo on a real XL today and it looks very good (it has that Nintendo feel).

 

The A8 needs more games done with accuracy in mind.

 

So... who else is crazy enough to take on a new project?

 

-Bry

 

P.S. Anyone been to the Grayscale Project site lately? The tunes Chromaluma & Gray Set Willy are incredible.

[andy_bernstein]

Bry,

 

Currently, I'm working on the GTIA upgrade by Mux. I'm using bread board for the prototype and sockets. In case of a production run, I'll definitely go for a PCB board approach.

 

Coming project ? If the GTIA upgrade is a success, I'd like to give a shot at Galaxy Force (Stereo Pokey will be required) but it won't be before next summer due to a very heavy first semester.

 

I intend to develop on MAC (both OS9 & OSX for various reasons) so it will be a first.

 

AB.

[Atari Smeghead]

In the computer magazine and BBS era, these games circulated efficiently with far less overhead than making physical cartridges.

 

You know, you bring up an interesting point. There certainly have been hundreds (thousands?) of what would now be called Homebrew games over the life of the A8 line. I know that people greatly prefer cartridges to any other form of media these days, but why couldn't the current crop of game makers just put their latest game on a 5 1/4" floppy? I would have to assume that anyone who would be here, now, reading this, would still have a disk drive or 7 ready to boot.

 

Have you programmers out there even toyed with the idea? Is it because of the deterioration of the media (or the hardware, for that matter) that makes it a bad plan? Or is it lack of availability of NOS (New Old Stock) floppies?

Would Joe GameBuyer be willing to pay, say, $10 less for a disk version?

 

This may be a kinda dumb topic, but it just occured to me, that's all. For my own personal situation, I'd rather have the carts because my two double density 1050s are both becoming a bit flaky and I think some of my floppies are starting to go bad.

 

Ooo, I know! Cassettes! That'd save all SORTS of money!

 

Actually, another possibility would be to sell the .ATR or .EXE version of the game for a few $ less and let us do with it as we please. If I could put some of the newest games on my 8Mbit AtariMax cart with a bunch of other games, it would take up less room in my collection but would still BE a cartridge.

 

Understand that I'm not bashing the idea of cartridge games, just tossing other ideas out there.

I'm not a programmer, so this and actually buying the games are all I can do to help the community. Babble and buy, buy and babble...It's what I'm good for!

[jaybird3rd]

You know, that's an interesting idea. I've been looking into getting into A8 development myself, and in thinking about how I would handle commercial distribution (assuming I create something someone else would want), I considered offering two options. The more "expensive" one would be to offer the product on a real cartridge, and the "cheaper" one would be to offer a PC-format 3.5" floppy diskette with a binary version of the product on it (for use with an emulator or the APE PC-Mirror) as well as a bootable .ATR version (for transfer to a real 5.25" diskette). That would allow the user to enjoy the cost savings of buying magnetic media instead of cartridges, it would avoid the trouble of obtaining reliable 5.25" floppies for distribution, and it would give the user the freedom to use the software any way they want. Not sure what the technical difficulties might be in offering the same game in both formats (especially for large bankswitched cartridge games), but perhaps it's an option worth considering. There might even be enough room on the disk after that to bundle an emulator with the game (assuming that doesn't violate any licenses), or even electronic documentation/extras.

[starraider]

honestly, with all respect to our beloved atari, I do not see ANY chance to make an atari game a commercial success nowadays.....just thinking about it seems too ridiculous....

the only motivation to create a game on the atari today ist fun, because it is a nice hobby.....

if I would create an atari game or application right now, I would make it free for all, including source code, so maybe other programmers could use some of it as well for making new games or tools....

 

I think, an online software library would be a cool thing, where everybody could upload his own developed subroutines, making it available to all the other programmers....

I am sure this would help some ppl, who are interested in developing software for the atari, but who don't have really that much experience....yet....

[TMR]

Have you programmers out there even toyed with the idea?  Is it because of the deterioration of the media (or the hardware, for that matter) that makes it a bad plan?  Or is it lack of availability of NOS (New Old Stock) floppies?

 

i think most of it is the idea of having the artefact in your hand, a solid lump of plastic with a game on. Anyone with the right kit could transfer an XEX or ATR to a disk and play the game from there, there's no "magic" involved. Me personally, i'm not planning on putting my A8 game(s) out via cartridge, the XEX will be on my website and AA for the world to grab and possibly distribution through Cronosoft for a couple of pounds a pop.

[Atari Smeghead]

I like JayBird3rd's idea! It's an interesting approach, catering to all options.

 

I'm not sure if there's any sort of cost issue in regards to making, say, 5 cartridges vs 50. I could see a problem if making 5 carts cost, say, $25 each but having a larger run of them would cut the cost in half or whatever.

 

As I said, I would rather have a cartridge, but now that I have my AtariMax carts, I would love to be able to get an .EXE version (or an .ATR, but you can only put one .ATR on a cart vs as many .EXEs as will fit) and make my own cart. For me, it's a space issue. I have so many game systems and am running out of room to store all the games. One more cart takes up that much more space.

I want to play these games on a real a8. I'm not really an emulator kinda guy. But some people do not have the hardware, and it might, possibly, be a way to garner a bit more income (or at least some more interest and more people to play your creation).

 

Still, I'm happy for any new games we can get, and I'll support the authors any way I can. I'm expecting to be able to give Bryede some money for Castle Crisis soon. (Hey, stop holding your breath! I'll get to it! )

 

Oh, and I meant to mention that I thought it was very classy and smart that Bry released a beta version of CC on an .ATR format. I gave it a try on the 800Win emu, and after I figured out that it's a paddle game and NOT a joystick game I realized how much I would enjoy a "real" copy of the game. So, thanks Bry!

[+Sauron]

I really don't think very many people would like the idea of buying an ATR image file. There's quite a few advantages to distributing games on cartridge to distributing them on disk or as images, and almost all of those advantages are for the end user. You don't have to put up with load times, you don't have to worry about losing data through old and unreliable disk drives, and for the author, you don't have to worry as much about people distributing your game like wildfire without any reimbursement for your time and effort. Sure, people can dump ROMs and play their games via emulation, but nothing beats holding a physical piece of plastic in your hands complete with professional looking labeling and a manual, and playing it on the real thing. Most of the people in this hobby now are collectors, believe it or not, and no one finds collecting ATR files very exciting except for us few hardcore fans.

[analmux]

Well, I still think there is no market at all for the A8bit. Sorry for saying, but get real!!

 

Coding a game is a matter of devotion, and it's not that simple for a beginning coder to make a professional game. There are too many techniques needed. Only people who have lots of years experience in coding, and have brilliant ideas will be able to make the games. Don't forget that games are usually developed by a whole team. As the 8bit is a hobby computer, the majority of the users are hobby users too, and professional coders are working with modern computers. People would only like to pay for a quality game.

 

People that would like to program a game for the 8bit should do this for the honour, not for the money. However money can be very stimulating, but I wouldn't see that as the primary goal of hobby programming.

 

However this applies for games that are created from scratch. Conversions or ports are a different topic.

 

-----

mux

[Wrathchild]

Conversions or ports are a different topic.

Whilst I agree that the market is pretty non-existent, how do you see these as being any different? Only if the current copyright holders wanted to take a slice, or you had to pay them up front in order to do the conversion, would that affect what is charged for the game. Otherwise its for the same 'love of the A8s' that the programmer did the work.

 

IMHO, ATRs/cas images should be release freely on areas such as AA and announced on comp.sys.atari.8bit. Existing flash cart owners can utilise these for free. The extra work to make a >64K cart release warrants commision for the programmer, plus the distributor. Eventually that image will work its way onto the net but the number of people who'd then burn their own is, I'm guessing, small - its those who burn them for others that's the killer.

 

The money side, for me, would be the incentive to crack on with the next port...

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[Randy California]

The market is far from huge but forking out a run of 80-90 cartridges of a specific program doesn't seem unrealistic. What we need to do is let people know the game exists. There are also potential customers who don't frequent forums or newsgroups. With several dealers involved, more people would hear about the game. Let's say something like:

- author: 15 (advertized through comp.sys.atari.8bit and other forums)

- AtariAge: 20

- Video 61: 15

- ABBUC: 15

- other dealers: 10-15

- eBay: rest...

 

Opinions?

 

++

RC

++

[analmux]

Whilst I agree that the market is pretty non-existent, how do you see these as being any different?

 

Well, developing a NEW game from scratch needs a lot more work than the conversion of an already existing game. If you're lucky you can use much of the core-routines, and you'd only need to rewrite gfx/snd engines, and convert graphics/bitmap data a little.

 

If you're writing a new game you have to take gameplay and playability in account (as you have a new idea), and that will need much testing (by beta testers). Most existing games are developed by professionals, so (we hope) the quality of graphics, sound and gameplay is well balanced. That's much more easy to convert. Converting is just a matter of copying. Creating new games is a matter of a LOT of creativity and skilled programming.

 

The money side, for me, would be the incentive to crack on with the next port...

 

Off course, but for me it's not the main reason to program cool stuff on our beloved A8bits, and if I don't get any money for my work that wouldn't bother me that much.

 

-----

mux

[Atari Smeghead]

Most of the people in this hobby now are collectors, believe it or not, and no one finds collecting ATR files very exciting except for us few hardcore fans.

 

That really cracked me up! You're absolutely right, of course. In terms of being a collector, which I happen to be, it would be rather diffucult to get excited about a file. I'll give ya that...

 

 

Well, developing a NEW game from scratch needs a lot more work than the conversion of an already existing game.

I'm not a programmer, so I am officially talking out of my butt here, but I think you may be wrong. From what I've read/heard, it can be rather the opposite. Especially in the olden days, OSs were radically different, making ports a challenge. In some cases, the programmers found it easier to simply redo the game than try to port it. Anyone with any real knowledge care to weigh in? (BTW, I'm only insulting myself here...)

 

Personally, I wish I would have taken the time to learn a "fun" programming language. In high school and in my college days, I studied the business languages and at home I was all BASIC. Can't write a cool game in RPG or LOGO or COBOL, tho Pascal can be the building blocks for C, from what I've heard.

I suppose a BASIC game could be compiled, but would the game be fast enough?

 

...and yes, I did actually learn the basics of LOGO. My high school computer teacher felt it was a good starting point for Pascal. It was a long time ago, tho. Turtle power!!!!

[Sheddy]

I tend to agree that the only really desirable format is cartridge. Even if you had a disk, a really nice disk box, with a manual too, most people would still prefer a cartridge, given the choice. There's no money to be made though. It has to be done just for the love of it.

 

As you can get hold of .ATR's of almost any game that has ever been, and most 8-bit people have APE or SIO2PC cables to make their own disks if they want to - having to pay for the privilige of doing that for a new game will reduce your audience, and a .ATR would soon become available somewhere on the web anyway.

 

I mostly agree with Analmux, that creating new games is more difficult that conversions. Creating new artistic content and original levels cetainly adds to the challenge. However, I would be surprised if any totally original gameplay can be created on an old platform. It's always going to be a bit like something that's already been done.

 

You are limited in your creativity and ambitions by the limitations of the machine itself, which believe it or not is a good thing in some ways! It reduces the skills and resources needed to make something that is good for that platform - more sophisticated techniques, better artwork, music ecetera simply being impossible.

 

Not all conversions are equally difficult. When the platforms are similar in their abilities then maybe things are easier, but every platform has it's own strengths, which can be technically difficult to translate to another platform. I can only talk about what I'm trying to do with Space Harrier, and I can say that I would have rather tried an original game in some ways. You can throw away complex ideas that are hard to do on an original game, but you have to try and make it work somehow with a conversion. It is true however, that I have a clear goal to aim for, which is easier than starting from a blank sheet of paper.

[TMR]

As you can get hold of .ATR's of almost any game that has ever been, and most 8-bit people have APE or SIO2PC cables to make their own disks if they want to -  having to pay for the privilige of doing that for a new game will reduce your audience, and a .ATR would soon become available somewhere on the web anyway.

 

i don't know about anyone else, but personally i'm not all that worried about how it gets distributed as long as it gets out there. i'm planning to release Reaxion A8 through Cronosoft which probably means it'll be on tape, but i'll also be distributing it for free from my website. All i want in return (at least, all my ego wants =-) is for people to enjoy it and perhaps email me to say as much.

 

Not all conversions are equally difficult. When the platforms are similar in their abilities then maybe things are easier, but every platform has it's own strengths, which can be technically difficult to translate to another platform.

 

Ditto for the fight i got from Reaxion A8 sometimes; the original was designed very much with the C64's strengths in mind and, even with everything from the original available to me since i coded it, there were parts of the game that were a scumbag to move to the A8. My next project, when it's planned, will be designed for the Atari rather than a port... =-)

[Heaven/TQA]

@ TMR

 

what about a co-op next project? i need some gaming coding experience...

[jaybird3rd]

I'm not a programmer, so I am officially talking out of my butt here, but I think you may be wrong.  From what I've read/heard, it can be rather the opposite.  Especially in the olden days, OSs were radically different, making ports a challenge. In some cases, the programmers found it easier to simply redo the game than try to port it.  Anyone with any real knowledge care to weigh in? (BTW, I'm only insulting myself here...)

I remember hearing David Crane talk about the development of Pitfall II for the C64 and A8 on Retro Gaming Radio, and his insights on this very topic (porting vs. rewriting) were fascinating to me. Apparently, the 2600 version of Pitfall II was done first by Crane himself, and the ports for the A8 and C64 were assigned to two other programmers working under Crane's supervision. They took two different approaches: the A8 programmer ported the original code directly from the 2600 and made the necessary changes to make it work on the A8 hardware, while the C64 programmer used the original game as a template to write Pitfall II on the C64 from scratch.

 

Crane was curious to see which one could finish his port first, but it turns out that they both got done at the same time! The only advantage for the A8 version was that it was bug-free when it was completed, whereas the C64 version had a whole debugging phase to go through before it could ship. That story made me believe that it's probably just as easy (if not easier) to rewrite the game from scratch on the A8 than to try to work with the original code, especially since most of us will not have access to the documented source code (not to mention the developer) of the original game for guidance.

[TMR]

@ TMR

 

what about a co-op next project? i need some gaming coding experience...

 

Ooh... um... i tend not to go for co-op projects 'cos i don't work particularly well as part of a team. Ask Sack, he's had to put up with me nagging for weeks now! =-)

[walter_J64bit]

Like the Cart, like Sauron said

You don't have to put up with load times

I play FSII more now because of the cart, than I did when I had it on Disk!

[Callipygous]

Crane was curious to see which one could finish his port first, but it turns out that they both got done at the same time!  The only advantage for the A8 version was that it was bug-free when it was completed, whereas the C64 version had a whole debugging phase to go through before it could ship.  

 

Hmm. What I read was that the 8-bit contains an extra adventure because the programmer finished with weeks to spare. He may have done this during the debug stage of the C64, so the stories may still be consistent.

[jaybird3rd]

That's right. The two ports were scheduled to ship at the same time, so while the C64 version was being debugged, Mike Lorenzen (the A8 developer for Pitfall II) used the extra time to add the extra level. But in terms of completing the initial port from the 2600 (not counting the bugfixing stage), the two versions took about the same amount of time. I just found that interesting because Lorenzen had access to David Crane's documented source code (and to Crane himself) for guidance, and even with that advantage, the C64 developer was able to complete the from-scratch version of Pitfall II in the same amount of time. That makes me believe that a homebrew developer looking to port a game to the A8 isn't necessarily choosing the harder path by doing it from scratch (as opposed to trying to reverse-engineer code from the original version and move it over to the A8 platform). Of course, I could be totally wrong here.

 

As for creating a totally new game on the A8, I agree with Sheddy that this is much more difficult, since the developer must perfect the gameplay and artistic aspects of the title as well as contend with coding and debugging. Since it's probably very difficult to come up with a new game that does not "borrow" from previous titles to some extent, as Sheddy points out, I'm just as content to create A8 versions of existing games that haven't been seen on the A8 before, just for the sake of playing them on my favorite computer.

[Wrathchild]

As for creating a totally new game on the A8, I agree with Sheddy that this is much more difficult, since the developer must perfect the gameplay and artistic aspects of the title as well as contend with coding and debugging.

I still think that the work invloved when you don't have the original source counter-balances this and so both have an approximately equal amount of effort, e.g. 1) working out where the original graphics are/how they're encoded and 2) working out what address does what (some have multiple uses) and 3) reworking existing fonts/bitmaps/sprites/music to a format usable by the A8.

 

:wink:

 

Mark