Homebrews and new releases (Yeah, I know, I know...)

[Gunstar]

the fact is that when you announced EerieVale, and released the Ocean Depths CD, even though I was one of the forst to purchase it, I was thinking; Oh great! Now I'm going to have to wait God knows how much longer to see the game I've REALLY been expecting for the last couple years; StarAlliance. Being disappointed from this situation makes it that much harder to get excited about another project too. IMHO.

[jaysmith2000]

Hi !

 

Yes, I think Richard is right. There are enough things that could be done with such a page... Like interviews with developers, previews, and generally making projects more obvious to the Jag fans...  

 

For example I am at the moment working on a website update of the Eerievale website, just to make the project more obvious to Jag fans and to make it more clear what it is about.  

Richard pointed out to me, that most Jag fans obviously are not really counting Eerievale as potential release (and thus are not looking forward to it as much as they should) simply because they don't understand what the game and adventure genre are actually about. There is nothing comparable on the Jag.  

 

Actually I have recieved more positive feedback from non-Jag fans about Eerievale, than from actual Jag fans.  I think that's a BIG warning sign, that something is going wrong. I also heard countless times already "Why are you doing such a cool game for a system nobody knows or plays ? Don't waste your time, create a PC version !". So there is a lot of interest from PC adventure fans in the game, even though it isn't even for their system.

 

So when general adventure fans seem to realize the great potential immediately and most Jag fans don't, it shows that Jag fans obviously don't understand yet, what the game is about or that we are truely fighting on long lost ground here.

 

The time that I spend with doing articles/updates to clear things like that up is time, that could also be invested in the actual development, but as there are no sites doing things like that, I have to do it myself    

 

Richard also made it very clear to me, how important it is, to clear things like that up as soon as possible. The longer the potential of Eerievale is unclear to the Jag fans, the more people loose interest in it.

And I think that would be a real pity. A project with the potential of Eerievale really should under no circumstances die, because of too little interest.  

 

And just to give you an idea, what I think about it...

Ok, I know this might not be objective to say, but  

I have very rarely been as thrilled and anticipating about a project as I am about Eerievale. This is also the first time that I am actually awaiting and looking forward to a project of my own.  

As an adventure fan, Eerievale is one of the most interesting Jag games ever.  

For me personally there are only two other Jag games that will hopefully be of identical potential/quality when they are done. I think the developers of the titles read this forum as well and know which ones I mean. They should continue their hard work and not give up, as the Jag really NEEDS those games desperately.  

 

Regards, Lars.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I'm THRILLED and very EXCITED about Eerievale. I think you're well aware of that Lars since I've been an ardent supporter of it from the beginning. I think it's the kind of game that may help bring new users into the Jaguar community. It is a different genre for the system and a MUCH needed one. Personally, I can't wait to see this!

[Trip_Cannon]

Starcat, I can't tell you how much I'm excited to see your game and more Jag games in general. I'm thrilled that there's still people out there like you who create compelling Jag games. But Gunstar is absolutely correct. We've been waiting years and years for these one man companies to create some games but see very little output. For example, OMC games. I remember reading an article, I think from the Atari Times, where James Garvin wanted to be remembered as a man of his word. Well? Is he? I mean, all I got from his website was a couple of sketch drawings for Assasin. It was that way for years and now I hear it's not going to be made anymore. Is that newsworthy stuff?

[Starcat]

Hi !

 

Trip:

First of all, I can not agree with what you said about that people grew tired of adventure games. This is not true at all. There are millions of adventure fans worldwide waiting for new games, the fan base for adventure games is stronger than ever. And there are still cool games coming out sometimes, however there are very few companys left that do adventure these days.

The problem is, that the average gamer just buys what is trendy, and that's not thinking, but plain action and most companys don't care what they create as long it sells. If it's even cheaper to produce, that's even better and that is exactly the case with action. It's a LOT more expensive, difficult and time consimung to create a decent adventure game, than action games, so almost every company dropped adventures and do action games instead. Why should they do anything else, if action sells and is cheaper to do ?!

That is a proven fact, that many companys even admitted, such a Lucas Arts and Sierra. It was quite a stupid decision though, as those companys went down the drain when they dropped the adventure genre.

Lucas Arts for example used to be the number one when it comes to adventures, they used to stand for quality. When they stopped making adventures, they created countless flop games for example based on the Star Wars theme. There were a few good ones, but lucas arts used to be a company without ANY flops and just hits back when they still did adventures. So it was quite a downfall. Same is true for Sierra and many other companys.

There are countless sites of adventure fans and even a very strong homebrew community that is even happy about more or less simple games with ripped graphics. So you see, a decent adventure has got great chances to become popular and it's certainly not that there was no interest in adventures.

 

About Star Alliance. There never was a release date set. I understand that people might be looking forward to it, but I can tell you, it is not taking any longer because of Eerievale.

The development of Star Alliance is slow, because other team members with little time are involved and also because the whole situation is entirely different. Star Alliance was my first project, when I started I first had to learn coding and had no experience at all and thus there was basically no planning invloved, the whole concept changed countless times, too.

All that explains why it takes so long. If all design work was finished, the game could probably be finished very fast. However if you work with other pepople who have lives of their own and a fulltime job, things like that take very long. Actually when I started Star Alliance I heard several times "Oh, not another shooter, the Jag has so many already."

I admit that I took that road back then, just because it was the easiest thing to do and it was a good way to learn Jag coding and get general experience.

 

Another important thing is, a big part of the Jag library are action games, but there is nothing when it comes to real adventures.

The Jag needs adventure games much more desperately than it needs action games.

Eerievale has a much higher priority and can progress much faster, because I work on the project alone and also because the story behind it was created long before the project started. So when I started the project a lot of work was done already.

 

You said, why should you look forward to something, that still takes much time to be finished. Everybody was looking forward to Battlesphere even though it took about seven years until the Jag fans could play it on their Jags. So I see no reason why people shouldn't be looking forward to Eerievale as well.

 

I understand what you said about OMC and I feel the same way. I was very much looking forward to The Assassin myself and I was really sad to hear that it was canceled, especially as the Jag needs that genre.

However there is an important difference between OMC and me. So far I have always kept my word and don't plan to change that. I have released Ocean Depths among other things, so that also shows that I am capable of finishing something.

The reason why I do not use such progress percent displays on my sites, is simply because I do not like to restrict myself.

For example, what if a game is 95 % completed according to the website and I get a brilliant idea for some new features, so that if I was serious about the percentages I would have to reduce it to 70% again for example. To me that doesn't make sense.

What is an even bigger problem, how can you safely say how many percent a project is done ? When can you say a project is done to 78% and what is the difference to 80% ?

I rather write what progress I make as plain text like I do on the Eerievale site and in the forum. That way I can add any new idea without problems.

 

The site has just been updated, btw.

http://www.eerievale.de

 

Jason:

Thanks for the feedback. I know that you have always been supportive about Eerievale.

However in total I can still count the people that look forward to Eerievale on one hand, and as I said, I even got more positive e-mails by people who just stumbled over the Eerievale page accidently then I got from Jaguar fans and I don't really like that idea.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Trip_Cannon]

Trip:

First of all, I can not agree with what you said about that people grew tired of adventure games.

 

I never said that...

 

I think you're referencing what Gunstar wrote just before me. I agreed with what Gunstar had to say about news and announcements in regards to upcoming video games. It wasn't intended to be a slam against you by any means. It's more of a commentary on the state of upcoming Jaguar projects and engaging Jaguar news. At least that's the way I took it. (Gunstar, correct me if we're wrong).

 

I'm, personally, looking forward very much to Eerievale because, just like you wrote, there's nothing else like it on the Jag. And it looks pretty f-ing cool too.

[Starcat]

Hi Trip !

 

Oh, yes. Sorry about that

Great to hear that you are looking forward to Eerievale.

 

As I said, it's understandable that people find it hard to look forward to new games, as there were no big games for a long time, but all I can say about that, there will be a few really great games in the coming months I think. And that will make the waiting time worthwhile.

One thing I can say for sure is, Eerievale won't take as long as Star Alliance did, simply because the game can progress much faster due to much better planning and more experience on my side.

 

I think you can really safely look forward to Eerievale, as it is already much more "real" than Star Alliance. There was a small demo already on Ocean Depths and I am doing my best to have a much better demo of Eerievale done for Euro Jag Fest 2004, which will probably be in late october or november 2004 in Neuss, Germany.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Trip_Cannon]

Hi Trip !

 

Oh, yes. Sorry about that  

 

No worries!

 

As I said, it's understandable that people find it hard to look forward to new games, as there were no big games for a long time, but all I can say about that, there will be a few really great games in the coming months I think. And that will make the waiting time worthwhile.  

One thing I can say for sure is, Eerievale won't take as long as Star Alliance did, simply because the game can progress much faster due to much better planning and more experience on my side.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. Other than the influx of new games from Telegames, Songbird, and Scatologic there were no more releases afterward. Just smaller demos and small games. Nothing on the scope of fully realized games. OMC promised that, but that news was still riding on the wave of the Songbird/Scatologic releases so he had many more interested people and it was easier to get press with most of the JFPN and Jagu-Dome pages still in full-gear. Now there's not that much left out there as far as webpages that can help you hype this the way it deserves to be hyped.

[Gunstar]

Starcat, I think you are misunderstanding the difference between being excited about something and looking forward to it. I see no reason to get excited over something that is still in development for an unspecified amount of time, like Eerievill or StarAlliance. But I am certainly looking forward to Eerievale as well as StarAlliance. To say you can count the people on one hand in the Jag community that are supporting your efforts is totally ludicris, is that all the Ocean Depths cd'S that you sold? You can count them on one hand? Why the hell do you think people like me even BOUGHT Ocean Depths? For some slide show? PLEASE! I bought it for the Eerievale demo and that was it, I payed about $25.00 with shipping for that demo too! Is that not showing enthusiasm for your projects? I could care less really about the slide show and Jagmind, they are nice, but so are a lot of BJL games and demos...for free! Your sales of Ocean Depths should be your barometer on how much people want your game, not so stupid e-mails. I liked the demo of Erievale a lot, but it didn't even occur to me to think "oh, I better e-mail Starcat and let him know I appreciate his efforts and look foward to it, becuase my monetary support is irrelevent." PLEASE! Now you are pissing me off.

[Gunstar]

Did any of those people that e-mailed you buy a copy of Ocean Depths from you? are they REALLY supporting you? Think about it you jerk.

[Starcat]

Hi Gunstar !

 

Of course I appreciate the ocean depths sales, I never said anything else.

I just said, most people don't seem to be even aware of the project, because only a hand full of people actually talked about Eerievale and stated their interest.

 

I am not talking about support, I never wrote anything about bad support.

I meant exactly what I wrote.

All I said was, there were more people who don't even have any connection to the game (as the game isn't even for their system) that gave positive feedback than Jag fans actually did. And that was quite surprising to me.

 

I wouldn't be posting messages like these if everybody was aware of the project. I still get e-mails from people from time to time telling me, that they just found out about Eerievale or also e-mails asking what it was about.

 

News need a long time to reach everybody. Best example is EJagFest 2003... Everything was on the website for more than two months before the event and I sent news to all mayor websites and mailinglist several times with weeks between the news posts. So everybody who was interested *should* have heard about it. Still I heard many people say afterwards "We didn't know about it." What I mean is, the best way of spreading news is, to talk about them. And that's exactly the problem. I heard very little talk about Eerievale myself.

Those news sites of the past did that. They picked up news, wrote articles about it and encouraged talking about the news.

 

Another example is, I recently got an e-mail from somebody, who "heard" about Eerievale months ago, but he also said, that he didn't care about the project until he visited the website again a few weeks ago and read the development notes and forum posts, because before that he just didn't know what the game was about.

 

This is exactly what Justclaws pointed out to me as well. Most Jag fans obviously don't know what adventure games actually are and thus are not interested in them or just didn't hear about the project yet.

The most famous adventure games came out in the late 80s to the middle of the 90s on PC. Especially from 90-96. Many Jag fans were probably not playing PC games at that time and so they might have missed those games.

 

Personally I can not understand how anybody can have missed such milestones in gaming history, but obvious many missed those games. Otherwise I wouldn't get e-mails of people asking what adventure games are about and I wouldn't have to write articles to explain what they are.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Paolo]

HEY! You aren't going to start a discussion here and make some moderators block my thread -which, by the way, has became an HOT TOPIC -, aren't you?

 

Just joking, and trying to break the tension.

 

I understand that Starcat is disappointed by the lack of 'public' appreciation, and I also understand Gunstar who is -how to say it- tired of waiting.

 

I think that Lars too is anxious of playing some new games, isn't he?

 

Come on, people, things are changing thanks to guys like Lars and all the coders and HW geeks that have been toying with the Cat from a year or so.

[Paolo]

You see, Justclaws?

Somebody has to give us back Jagu-dome or JFPN.

I think this is vital!

[Gunstar]

HEY! You aren't going to start a discussion here and make some moderators block my thread -which, by the way, has became an HOT TOPIC -, aren't you?

 

Just joking, and trying to break the tension.

 

I understand that Starcat is disappointed by the lack of 'public' appreciation, and I also understand Gunstar who is -how to say it- tired of waiting.

 

I think that Lars too is anxious of playing some new games, isn't he?

 

Come on, people, things are changing thanks to guys like Lars and all the coders and HW geeks that have been toying with the Cat from a year or so.

 

I'm not tired of waiting, I was just expressing the reason some might be, and no, we aren't going to get your thread locked on you, the angry face and name calling wasn't serious and I'm pretty sure Starcat knows.

 

I understand you better now Starcat. I am a big fan of classic GRAPHIC adventures like Eerievale appears to be so far (from the demo), I used to play them on Atari 8-bit and 16-bit computers, and still do. I never meant to say that people are STILL tired of the genre now, but that it fell out of style with the new 3D games of the 90's. and 3D totally interactive adventure games like Alone in the Dark or Resident Evil appeared, but yours is more traditional isn't it? more like a Myst type of game. right?

But the graphic adventure genre was out on Apple Commodre and Atari computers long before the PC. and most of theose PC ones your thinking of came out on at least Amigas and/or ST's too. At least upto about '92 or 3. But I also think you are hearing less from Jag fans becuase you have told them about it here and have a demo out etc, so they aren't neccesarily writing to ask you questions about the game becuase they already know what type of game it is (at least those that can read or have played your demo)

[Godzilla]

well, i can't wait for any new jag stuff, i support it, and i look forward to it, and i bought ocean depths as soon as I could, and I've bought all of songbirds titles and I will continue to buy any new Jag stuff I can get my grubby little mits on! So keep it up! Dont forget to igonore any hosers.

[JagChris]

Eerievale! Eerievale! Here! Here!

 

StarCat, did you say you actually learned to program while working on the Jaguar? You had no prior programming experience at all? I didn't know that. That's interesting. Can you elaborate, because I thought you were already an accomplished programmer when you started programming on the Jag.

[CrazyChris]

I miss the coverage from the Jag-u-dome. I'd be great to see someone covering the new games being developed, and the prototypes being released. Including lots of screen shots and commentary and reviews from multiple people.

 

There is really no place to go for indepth coverage of Ocean Views, B.I.W.N, B.H.H, and whatever else is avalible.

 

To continue with the posts, it'd also be nice to see a table of what is confirmed to be in development.

 

I think the Jag-u-dome was one of the things that kept the community so strong.

 

Chris

[justclaws]

Hello,

 

You see, Justclaws?

Somebody has to give us back Jagu-dome or JFPN.

I think this is vital!

Well since I've taken on Jagu-Dome, I've been working on fixing

all the links, standardising the pages, and updating the way that

data is stored so I can remove duplicate images etc., between

JustClaws JagSite, DevCats, and Jagu-Dome.

News is definitely on my hot list!

 

I am also extending Jaguar-Homebrew to include news about

progress on homebrew and commercial releases, as well as

just news about releases, and feedback on running them.

Thanks for making it clear how neglected this issue has been!

 

Cheers,

JustClaws.

[Starcat]

HEY! You aren't going to start a discussion here and make some moderators block my thread -which, by the way, has became an HOT TOPIC -, aren't you?

 

Just joking, and trying to break the tension.

 

I understand that Starcat is disappointed by the lack of 'public' appreciation, and I also understand Gunstar who is -how to say it- tired of waiting.

 

I think that Lars too is anxious of playing some new games, isn't he?

 

Come on, people, things are changing thanks to guys like Lars and all the coders and HW geeks that have been toying with the Cat from a year or so.

 

I'm not tired of waiting, I was just expressing the reason some might be, and no, we aren't going to get your thread locked on you, the angry face and name calling wasn't serious and I'm pretty sure Starcat knows.

 

Yes, I know that

 

I understand you better now Starcat. I am a big fan of classic GRAPHIC adventures like Eerievale appears to be so far (from the demo), I used to play them on Atari 8-bit and 16-bit computers, and still do.

 

Yes, it's like the classic point-and-click graphic adventures.

 

I never meant to say that people are STILL tired of the genre now, but that it fell out of style with the new 3D games of the 90's. and 3D totally interactive adventure games like Alone in the Dark or Resident Evil appeared, but yours is more traditional isn't it? more like a Myst type of game. right?

 

I used to say that myself, but now I realize, that comparing it to myst is entirely wrong. I used to say it has a myst-like perspective, but that's actually the only similarity to myst.

Myst is quite a controversal game. Some people love it and say it's a masterpiece, but a lot of people feel lost in the "empty" worlds. Unless you read the books in myst, you don't get any information that really tells you what you are supposed to do. And even after reading them, you are not in the situation to say, "Ok, now I know what I need to do". Myst also has quite limited puzzles, they are more or less all based combinations of pattern or switches. Myst also doesn't have characters to talk to.

 

Actually I personally do not know anybody who really loves Myst, simply because most gamers don't know what they should do or even why they should do anything at all in the game. I feel that most people feel left alone in the game. So most people I know don't really like it and I can understand that. Many of my friends like adventure games, but I am the only one of them who played myst to the end. Most of them solved a few puzzles when the game started and then went on to other more interesting adventure games.

However I can not say people have missed something if they do not finish it.

 

Eerievale is entrirely different in about every way.

Eerievale has got a different interface, it has an inventory, entirely different kinds of puzzles (more interesting puzzles), characters to talk to, a much more obvious goals, just to mention a few things.

And which is one of the most important things in Eerievale, it features a novel-like story and great athmosphere, so the player won't feel bored as easily as they feel bored with myst, because things are happening all the time and the story is unfolding with everything you do.

So Eerievale is much more interesting and "alive" than myst.

 

But the graphic adventure genre was out on Apple Commodre and Atari computers long before the PC. and most of theose PC ones your thinking of came out on at least Amigas and/or ST's too. At least upto about '92 or 3.  

 

Yes. However most of the lucas arts and sierra games still were PC exclusive. Only the earlier titles were ported if I remember correctly. So the chance of people missing the genre on other systems was bigger than on PC.

 

But I also think you are hearing less from Jag fans becuase you have told them about it here and have a demo out etc, so they aren't neccesarily writing to ask you questions about the game becuase they already know what type of game it is (at least those that can read or have played your demo)

 

Regards, Lars.

[Starcat]

Hi JagChris !

 

Eerievale! Eerievale! Here! Here!    

 

StarCat, did you say you actually learned to program while working on the Jaguar? You had no prior programming experience at all? I didn't know that. That's interesting. Can you elaborate, because I thought you were already an accomplished programmer  when you started programming on the Jag.

 

Exactly. I learned programming on the Jag itself. I wrote tiny programs before in basic on the C64, when I was very young, but that could hardly be called programming, it was very simple stuff, mostly consisting of button checks a few IFs and many, many PRINTs So nothing worth mentioning.

 

However in 1999 I got interested in Jag programming and learned assembler on the Jag. So you can say, I didn't have any coding experience before. It was quite a problem back then actually, as there were not the resources available that are there today. I took me ages to find an alpine and even getting the development software was quite a problem. That took quite some time as well. There also was only the underground documentation, until I bought the official dev manual, scanned it and published it on the net for free. I had to search the tools and example that I needed to learn jag dev from all around the net and many things were not there back then so I had to create them myself. So Star Alliance was a perfect project to teach myself the most important things. Fortunately most of that changed now, today there are many great resources for Jaguar developers on the net and I think these days Jag development is easier than ever, thanks to the many resources available.

 

Regards, Lars.

[JagChris]

That's amazing StarCat. That really is. Man, that's an inspirational story. Are you good at math and stuff?

 

I wish you the best of luck

[Starcat]

Hi CrazyChris !

 

No actually not. Math sort of my weak point, but as you see, you don't necessarily need to be a math wizard to develop video games. Actually I remember hearing/reading the exact same thing about Jeff Minter at some point.

The most important thing that you need to develop games in my opinion is imagination, ideas, strong will, endurance and of course also some skills to turn your ideas into reality.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Starcat]

Sorry, I mean JagChris

[Godzilla]

Man, starcat, to go from nothing to that is amazing. Makes me want to tackle that 2600 game I've been meaning to force myself to program (Though Amiga AMOS, E and C++ are about as far as I've made it programming wise,)

[justclaws]

No actually not. Math sort of my weak point, but as you see, you don't necessarily need to be a math wizard to develop video games. Actually I remember hearing/reading the exact same thing about Jeff Minter at some point.  

All the best programmers were self-taught before they did any kind

of academic courses on it, in the past. (Just read the old Atari CV's!)

 

The most important thing that you need to develop games in my opinion is imagination, ideas, strong will, endurance and of course also some skills to turn your ideas into reality.

I think you're missing one other thing. The support and enthusiasm

of friends or family. Everybody has some hard times in projects, it

helps so much if you have a family who'll encourage you, or whose

interest encourages you, and a peer group with similar interests is

a boon, just as Jeff Minter has written about his game coding too.

 

I can relate to that at least. Fortunately in the Jaguar community,

Lars also found a group of friendly Jaguar programming hobyists,

and despite some less encouraging voices, he kept his motivation!

This is not putting Lars down. Personal motivation is the first need!

 

I applaud Lars too, having been in contact with him since his first

"Your site is cool", through "Can I program the Jag", to problems

with coding, and now to looking on in awe at what's he's creating,

I believe he's doing great work. He's certainly not alone though,

but some people created web-sites before they created code...

some of whom faded away, or whose projects were vapourware.

 

The nice thing as I've said is, if you look beyond the surface,

the Jaguar hobbyist scene is a nice place to be, and some of

the best and most helpful programmers and hardware guys

are the people nobody heres from these days, but help, still.

 

Some of the other home-brew developers have also created

so many good things too, and are better known, but for want

of some publicity, or too much modesty, projects stay low-key!

 

Cheers,

JustClaws.

[Tyrant]

All the best programmers were self-taught before they did any kind of academic courses on it, in the past. (Just read the old Atari CV's!)

Im entirely self taught, and without being too modest I think Im rather good, if a little lazy.

 

Ok, a lot lazy.

 

and some of the best and most helpful programmers and hardware guys are the people nobody heres from these days, but help, still.

Agreed, and judging from the amount of time I spend posting relative to the amount of time I spend coding, perhaps they have the right idea?