Why sacrifice 2600 carts for...

[Genki]

homebrewed games? Currently most that builds carts with homemade games (like Hozer for example) it usually involves getting large quanity of common 2600 carts, taking them apart and ripping out the old PCB and the old labels. Then install new PCB and apply new labels.

 

Do it yourself injection molding is not hard and you could mold case after something fancier like Imagic case or such. Even the T handled cart made by Menavision (Air Raid game) and yoou could do just about any color including transparant and semi transparent.

 

I have a few non Atari cases that could easily be molded including Cosmovision case (looks like Activision case, no snap latches) and Imagic case and more.

 

I'm brushing up on molding and when I find a good site, I'll note here.

[Rhindle The Red]

Actually, if you will read this (simplified) guide to making your own 2600 carts:

 

Quick Cart Making instructions

 

you will see that the board is also necessary, as the only part removed is the chip itself, to be replaced by the EPROM.

 

Since a cart needs must be destroyed anyway (unless you can find a place that manufactures 2600 compatible boards) they might as well destroy the most common ones. And since the most common ones are almost all Atari, there you go.

[Junie]

quote

Do it yourself injection molding is not hard and you could mold case after something fancier like Imagic case or such.  Even the T handled cart made by Menavision (Air Raid game) and yoou could do just about any color including transparant and semi transparent.[QB]

 

I would agree with you. I am not sure how many hundred thounds there are of Combat or Pac-Man avaliable now, but sooner or later they could become a rare finds in many years to come.

 

Perhaps you are onto something. The PC Board itself could be easily done as well, it definately is not complex.

 

The only problems you would run into is making the cases and PCB's for next to nothing, and possiably copyright infringement.

 

If there is anyone who is around/would press copyright charges this could be easily avoided by making small modifications.

 

According to my electrionics professor at college, all you would have to do on the PCB's would simply remove at least one copper foil line and replace it with a wire jump. (I have talked to him about various things about the Atari)

 

As far as the cases, simply add ridges on the sides of the carts or etc.

 

The actual problem would be the cost to produce the cases and PCB's. You would have to keep the price at or below the cost of a Combat, Pac-Man, etc. cart. If both could be made and resold to Hozer for example at 25¢ or 50¢ and have easy ordering and cheap shipping this could actually be done successfully.

 

I myself would like to try and do this, but I don't have the money to start such a adventure. I would figure you would need around $2000 - $3000 for the machines and supplies to get started.

 

If anyone would like to try such a undertaking count me in. I would definetly like to devote my time and whatever else.

 

Could you imagine the day when the Combat, Pac-Man, etc. carts are just as hard to find as anything else? I imagine time itself will make this happen, but we could help slow down the rate by taking on this undertaking.

 

Any takers on this?

 

Junie

[Joel D. Park]

I may be wrong but I believe Ebivision uses their own custom cases. They look normal but I don't believe they are from old game cases. Does anyone know where they get them???

[Marc Oberhäuser]

I have used Pole Position carts from O'Shea for the Combat Two project...

 

Marc

[videotwit]

I don't think a "do-it-yourself" injection molding would work all that well. I don't think it would be durable enough in the first place -- you'd need the right "recipe" for the plastic to hold up (i.e. ABS).

 

Also, I really don't think it'd be cost effective. Even if you could produce these homemade cart casings for .50 cents each (which I don't think you could do in a reasonable quantity), you'll still need the PCBs. As we speak, Randy recycles old carts which he purchases for .50 cents each -- which includes cart and PCB.

 

Sure, there are a limited supply of Combats, Pac-Mans, Space Invaders. But how limited is it really? How big of a demand is there going to be in the future for homebrews? If the trend ontinues (which I personally don't think it is going to do after a few years), maybe then there will be a reason to have cart casings / PCBs professionally produced, which would be the only true way of assuring quality.

 

For the time being, however, I think we are fine -- it's going to take a while for recycled carts to run out. Even if there's 20 new titles each year, they still don't tend to sell more than 200 units each -- and that even seems high. That's still only 4000 carts a year that need to be recycled. With the millions of available commons, it's going to be years until there's a shortage.

[Cassidy Nolen]

Guys,

 

I have an injection mold machine with hydraulic interface. I could make them super cheap. Currently, I have been using pure pellets so everything is white, but if I died them they could be any color. Why not make them blue, or something cool like woodgrain? Either way, the only step now would be for someone to help me make the mold I would need.

 

I even have a CNC machine to cut the mold, just need the code to run the machine.

 

Any MasterCam design guys out there wanna try? Get it to me, and we be in business.

 

Cassidy

[StanJr]

Shame on you TWIT for your pessimism! I'd like to think we are entering into an Atari Renaissance. I'm amazed at the sudden number of homebrews popping up, and with more people like myself learning (or at least trying to) to program in 6502, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the classic gaming world doesn't continue to grow (just look how quickly this message board has grown, the number of members has doubled in just a couple months!).

 

Its kind of freaky, but considering the amount of talent and resources floating around on this board alone, we could all go in together and start a company entirely devoted to reviving classic gaming and probably have a shot at making it a success.

 

I'd rather find an alternative to destroying common carts (the Combat II/ Pole Position really scares me, that game is hard to find in these parts!), but for now, I think Pac-Man and Combat, hell even Night Driver, can take the hit, UNTIL there is a better option.

 

Stan

[videotwit]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cassidy:

It would cost about 3 cents in plastic to make the carts. I do not know if I could make all the interior dust shields, but some of the carts were open anyway.

 

The mold itself will be an aluminum block. I have access to these machines in my classroom, but do not have the skill to write the cad program for it (best I can do is a checker or a name tag).

---

 

Sounds promising then.

 

As far as dust shields go, they are not necessary. It actually could just be molded as a closed-ended cart, and as long as the posts are included, it'd work great!

 

I'm sure there's someone around who'd be able to model it for you -- it's not that complex of a shape.

 

One question, though -- what happens when you graduate? Will you have the time to produce enough carts on a 1-shot production run before then, or will another injection-molding facility need to be procured? Just curious.

 

One more question, just out of curiosity... What type of plastic do you mold?

 

Anyhow, sounds cool!

[ubersaurus]

Could always work out a deal with whatever school this classroom is in. Give them 50 cents per cart or something. It would add up, and they would make a profit. I don't really think that it's gonna have too much of a die-down in a few years, simply because there will always be the hardcore people who liked the systems of their youth. Maybe they won't be collecting atari, but they'll still be classic gamers.

[atarimastermarty]

What would you like better 50 combats, or 50 new games? think of it that way.

[Ze_ro]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Junie:

I would agree with you. I am not sure how many hundred thounds there are of Combat or Pac-Man avaliable now, but sooner or later they could become a rare finds in many years to come.

---

 

YES!!!!

 

I'm gonna go stock up on my Combat's right now, and 5 years from now, Hozer will have made me a millionaire!

 

--Zero

[Callipygous]

There is no reason to fret over Combat disappearing. As the supply goes down, the price goes up. When the price is higher than the cost of a new case and PCB, homebrews will stop using old carts and manufacture their own. The price of Combat will go up to this "break-even" point. There will still be plenty of them around, but at $2 or $3 or whatever that price happens to be. When you think about it, this is the best of all possible worlds. Lots of unwanted and unused Combats are recycled into new games that people actually want and you can still get a Combat when you really want one.

 

"Mr Free Market",

[Genki]

Ok I found that link for homemade molding kit: http://www.powerbook.org/duo-zone-e/danger...lear-parts.html

 

While it's true it'd be easier to cannibalize existing cart, you have to modify most PCB for extra chip like the hex inverter since EPROM chip doesn't have the same behavior as the original ROM chip.

 

Anyway a suggestion: in the future promos like the CGE issue could be in special color or style that the rest of game cart won't have. I've always wanted a clear case to match the iMac theme.

[Ze_ro]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mario's Other Brother:

The price of Combat will go up to this "break-even" point. There will still be plenty of them around, but at $2 or $3 or whatever that price happens to be.

---

 

DAMMIT!!!

 

My whole scheme down the tubes!

 

--Zero

[moycon]

quote

My whole scheme down the tubes!  

 

Not necessarily. I mean look at it this way. If they did get as high as $3 or $4 hell Lemmie see....If I cashed mine in at that price that would be $640.00 Not bad in itself.

 

But.....

Start saving them up Zero. That alone will jack the price up even more. Once you have about 3,000,000 of em. Dump about 2,990,000 in a hole in the dessert and pour concrete on em, at that point the price will shoot up to about $100... cash em in then and there's your million!!!

[videotwit]

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanJr:

Shame on you TWIT for your pessimism! I'd like to think we are entering into an Atari Renaissance... {snip}

 

I'd rather find an alternative to destroying common carts (the Combat II/ Pole Position really scares me, that game is hard to find in these parts!), but for now, I think Pac-Man and Combat, hell even Night Driver, can take the hit, UNTIL there is a better option.

---

 

Call me pessimistic if you like, but I like to think of it as realistic. I do realize thast the hobby is growing, but as you state yourself, there are plenty of OC's to hold us over for a while.

 

I just think it'd be insanely expensive to mold brand new carts for an audience that at best is insignificant in size in relationship the big picture. It does seem that there are resources out there, however (like Cassidy's set-up he mentioned a few posts ago). I just don't want to see people jump head first into this and not be able to produce a decent product, or worse yet have the market fall out from under them. I really hope Cassidy can pull this off -- special carts for homebrews would be insanely cool!

 

I consider myself a big supporter of the "homebrew market," but with that comes the desire to see things of quality. I love it when people produce great new games (Venture II is my favorite example), and hope they continue.

 

On to another, somewhat related, thought... I am skeptical of this big growth in classic gaming over the past couple of years. It's cool that people are interested, but how long is that interest going to last? How many johnny-come-latelys are going to grow tired of it, only to retire their classic games back to the closet? I have a hunch that in 10 years, the community will have settled back down to the few hundered hard-core enthusiasts that have been into classic gaming since before it was "hip" or trendy.

 

Then again, maybe I should have had the regular instead of the decaf coffee this morning.

[Cassidy Nolen]

It would cost about 3 cents in plastic to make the carts. I do not know if I could make all the interior dust shields, but some of the carts were open anyway.

 

The mold itself will be an aluminum block. I have access to these machines in my classroom, but do not have the skill to write the cad program for it (best I can do is a checker or a name tag).

 

Every time I read this group I think, "huh, wer'e cool".

 

Cassidy

[mos6507]

It's already been done with Vectrex cases.

 

If someone bites the bullet and makes a single reasonably sized run then ALL homebrewers can buy from that source.

 

I think there is enough going on in the 2600 scene to allow for that.

 

Homebrew 2600 games have been in development for over half a decade and there are no signs of it slowing down anytime soon.

 

And making new PCBs isn't prohibitively expensive either. A lot cheaper to prototype than making the metal mold for plastic cases.

 

Regardless of the current rarity of OCs, I disagree on principle to cannibalizing old cartridges. It's also a slower process to have to remove the label, et. al. vs. just assembling a new cart and popping an EPROM into a new PCB.

[Albert]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Glenn Saunders:

It's already been done with Vectrex cases.

 

If someone bites the bullet and makes a single reasonably sized run then ALL homebrewers can buy from that source.

---

 

Interesting, I wasn't aware that this was being done with Vectrex cases. But I can understand this, given as there aren't a ton of common Vectrex games floating around out there that you'd want to cannibalize. I'd like to learn more about this as it's something I might be interested in doing at some point.

 

Does anyone here actually know what's involved in creating cartridges like this? I'm curious how much money up front this would cost, say for a run of 1,000 or more carts. I'm sure many people have experience producing the PCBs, so I don't think that would be as difficult. Joe Grand did this for SCSIcide, and he said he'll sell them for other projects (don't know what he's selling them for, though). If someone would create these with a socket and the 7404 Hex Inverter already soldered on, that'd be perfect.

 

..Al

[liveinabin]

We all know Combat is a great game, right? It may well be common as muck - now -but if we're buying all we can see and cannibalising 'em, how are any new Atari fans gonna get into it. I'd hate to think that I wouldn't have been able to start myself up with 'the standards' because some hardcore collector had bought em all up for some reason. Someone is going to have to find a way to make carts, sorry.

[mos6507]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albert:

Interesting, I wasn't aware that this was being done with Vectrex cases. But I can understand this, given as there aren't a ton of common Vectrex games floating around out there that you'd want to cannibalize. I'd like to learn more about this as it's something I might be interested in doing at some point. ..Al

---

 

 

thread

[Cassidy Nolen]

Just to clarify: I am the teacher, and this is in my room. If we need the equipment, thats just a matter of time for me in the lab. Have not had a chance to check the link someone sent, will see whats there.

 

Cassidy

 

How about purple cases? Or Neon Lime Green. No mistaking those!

[Cassidy Nolen]

Sorry for the back to back posts...

 

I see the way the one site someone linked to is doing it. It "might" be possible to make a resin casting mold, but for quality, the best would be an aluminum one. That way, it would not flex over time, and would not warp. I inject at about 100psi and about 400 degrees; not real good for fiberglass casts (remember the ones you had on your arm as a kid?!!)

 

Cassidy

[videotwit]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cassidy:

Just to clarify: I am the teacher, and this is in my room. If we need the equipment, thats just a matter of time for me in the lab. Have not had a chance to check the link someone sent, will see whats there.

 

Cassidy

 

How about purple cases? Or Neon Lime Green. No mistaking those!

---

 

Cassidy-

 

Sorry, my bad. I didn't realize you were the teacher. No disrespect intended...

 

Anyhow, I think this would be pretty cool, just from the viewpoint of having something "different" that allows a distinction between modern homebrews and carts that were produced earlier. Lime green carts would be cool, plus I've always liked red carts. The best part, though, would be making a distinctive "grip" pattern, and possibly molding "homebrew" somehow onto the reverse of the cart.

 

Very neat!