danwinslow Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Supposing somebody had an 8bit that could handle 4 internet connections and act as a 'server' for a custom game...and there was a client program you could run on an emulator or on a APE setup with the R:-to-internet connection yo connect to the server...what kind of game would be feasible or interesting for multiplayer? (I mean new game, not an internet enabled version of an older game, at least not a direct port ). Stuff like Gauntlet comes to mind...lookdown tile based adventure games, that is. Maybe some kind of space game, like a 4 person version of Star Raiders? Maybe some kind of simple RTS version like a simplified Warcraft or something. Just looking for ideas on what you guys think would be possible/interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikor Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Good idea, but, I see few problems: 1. packet speed - via modem will be only 300bods speed. Too slow to enyoy good game. Of coz - you can use APE or emulator, but for mee - good play is real atari play... 2. transfer control - see point 1. How you will be control sending/resending packets...? 3. speed options - for controling - you must doing very slowly game... So, if you want create some Internet game for 8-bit Ataris - do it!!! I propose doing rounding text game (for example like "Kolony"<polish game> or "Hammurabi"). In this type of game - you have not problems with speed packet with turn of player Good luck!!! We wait for it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gury Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Isn't it possible with Atari to gain modem speed to 2400bps? Greetz, Gury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 (edited) I am talking about hardware ataris equipped with a hypothetical Ethernet card or using the SIO2PC/APE cable, or emulators using the R:-to-ethernet idea. Joystick packets and so forth would be sent via TCP-IP. I am not talking about re-working things so you can use old games over the net, I am talking about a new game built specifically to be multiplayer with clients and a central server setup. Yeah, a text game would be perfect...and I've done them before. But I'd like to get some graphics involved, after all I want people to know they are on an Atari at both ends. A real atari can go to 2400BPS with the right modem I'm pretty sure. That would still be too slow for anything but a pure text game, I would think. Edited August 9, 2005 by danwinslow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathchild Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 How's about the Atari 2600 game 'Combat' on the A8? If the tank-only games were done then you can have 2/3/4 player games. Same can be done with the plane games, except you can only have 2 players with the 1vs3 or 2vs2 modes. The background would be selected by the 'server' user. Other than that - something along the lines of 'Claim Jumper' would be neat. Regards, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Isn't it possible to use some kind of USB modem that's hooked up an ADSL connection, and at the other end plugged in AtariMax's USB cartridge...then maybe very fast internet connection is possible ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybernoid Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Supposing somebody had an 8bit that could handle 4 internet connections and act as a 'server' for a custom game...and there was a client program you could run on an emulator or on a APE setup with the R:-to-internet connection yo connect to the server...what kind of game would be feasible or interesting for multiplayer? (I mean new game, not an internet enabled version of an older game, at least not a direct port ). Stuff like Gauntlet comes to mind...lookdown tile based adventure games, that is. Maybe some kind of space game, like a 4 person version of Star Raiders? Maybe some kind of simple RTS version like a simplified Warcraft or something. Just looking for ideas on what you guys think would be possible/interesting. 907006[/snapback] This is exactly the type of game I have been working on for over a year now... not much is done, but I have been trying to generate a RTS game that may turn into a turn based strategy game if the systerm requirements are too much. Basically, I have code to turn any Atari 8bit computer with APE into a game terminal. I have code to generate maps and send the data to the Atari computers. The only difference is that the map/game server computer is a Linux box, not an Atari computer... this way the maps can be huge and the server fast. Basically, the game server acts like a text BBS, but the text gets generated as graphics on the Atari. So the game server has a fairly simple text interface, so any computer can talk to it. I haven't worked on the code is over 2 months because of work, but I this is definitely possible! There are some other people out there helping on project DOA. I'll let you know when code becomes something you can download... -C- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 (edited) Well, let me be more specific then. I have integrated a board onto my atari 130xe, that provides a real time clock, a standard ethernet 10mbps connection, and 32MB of flash rom 'hard disk'. Its integrated with the atari across the SIO bus at a speed of 56k/38k. There's a custom API in C for CC65 and a simpler one in basic XL/XE/Turbo that lets you write code to use the ethernet port. Cybernoid, if you want any help with this project, let me know. I'd love to help out. I am a linux/unix programmer by trade, and have done several multiplayer games in the past. I'll be posting pictures and more info in a seperate thread this weekend about the 'Aether' board. Edited August 9, 2005 by danwinslow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybernoid Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Cybernoid, if you want any help with this project, let me know. I'd love to help out. I am a linux/unix programmer by trade, and have done several multiplayer games in the past. I'll be posting pictures and more info in a seperate thread this weekend about the 'Aether' board. 907638[/snapback] Ah, this is awesome! Does this Ethernet board use the CS8900a chip, like my EtherCart prototype? A8 EtherCart I thought about opening up the programming for the Game to others for help, and considering that I have little time this may be a good option. I will need some good Atari programmers and some good Unix/Linux and eventually Windows programmers. Maybe I can create a sourceforge group for this game later this year after the ABBUC Software Contest. (Gotta finish a few projects before working on another... of course they are all unfinished projects at the moment). Here is a teaser G2F title screen shot... props to powrooz... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 (edited) It uses a ne2000 compatible chip...not sure what the exact model is. The board has its own processor and RAM, and it does the actual TCP-stack work. The interface to the atari is just a thin shell to marshall call data and packets back and forth across SIO. It's cheesy in the sense that its not actually the 8-bit doing the TCP stack, but I just don't see it being practical to try to wedge an actual stack AND a game onto an 8 bit. But the little board is pretty cool and integrates right into the case of a 130xe. I'll post pics and so forth this weekend. The cost of the hardware is around 120$, and the library will be open source as soon as I get it to the alpha state. It's kind of expensive I guess, but you do get a RT clock and 32MB of simlated hard drive you can run ATR's and so forth from. A disk emulation layer is built into the library so you can run ATR disks right off of the board. It uses either the SIO2PC or Steve's APE cable internally. Edited August 9, 2005 by danwinslow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 It uses a ne2000 compatible chip...not sure what the exact model is. The board has its own processor and RAM, and it does the actual TCP-stack work. The interface to the atari is just a thin shell to marshall call data and packets back and forth across SIO. It's cheesy in the sense that its not actually the 8-bit doing the TCP stack, but I just don't see it being practical to try to wedge an actual stack AND a game onto an 8 bit. But the little board is pretty cool and integrates right into the case of a 130xe. I'll post pics and so forth this weekend. The cost of the hardware is around 120$, and the library will be open source as soon as I get it to the alpha state. It's kind of expensive I guess, but you do get a RT clock and 32MB of simlated hard drive you can run ATR's and so forth from. A disk emulation layer is built into the library so you can run ATR disks right off of the board. It uses either the SIO2PC or Steve's APE cable internally. 907712[/snapback] Wouldn't it be better to hang it off the cartridge port? Cart I/O is faster and more efficient than SIO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 I am talking about hardware ataris equipped with a hypothetical Ethernet card or using the SIO2PC/APE cable, or emulators using the R:-to-ethernet idea. Joystick packets and so forth would be sent via TCP-IP. I am not talking about re-working things so you can use old games over the net, I am talking about a new game built specifically to be multiplayer with clients and a central server setup. Yeah, a text game would be perfect...and I've done them before. But I'd like to get some graphics involved, after all I want people to know they are on an Atari at both ends. A real atari can go to 2400BPS with the right modem I'm pretty sure. That would still be too slow for anything but a pure text game, I would think. 907478[/snapback] I used to play MUDs using Atari 8-bits and VT-100 emulation. You can still do that if you have a solution that let's the Atari get an IP address and telnet out. There is nothing groundbreaking about that. Shouldn't an APE cable at least get you up to 19.2K speed? I think the big limitation is how much is going on graphically during that time. With BBSs, for maximum efficiency, people used to disable ANTIC. I think it would be difficult to write an action game that used this approach. It would work, but it might be a little jerky since every position update has to be received and processed. I think a Netrek-type game (look on Google) might be possible. I think an icon-based RPG would be possible, like the original Ultima. What I also think would be nice is to have a general purpose drawing protocol for the A8 that would work over the wire instead of specifically having to write custom clients. This was the idea behind Tom Hunt's CGS (color graphics system). Then you could create fancier online environments that go beyond what ATASCII BBSs could do. This would be similar to the Plato software but more optimized for the Atari 8-bit. You could still have drawing routines (plot, drawto, fill) but in addition to that you could have this plugin architecture where precompiled game modules could autodownload and run. No installation necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybernoid Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Wouldn't it be better to hang it off the cartridge port? Cart I/O is faster and more efficient than SIO. 907721[/snapback] I am sure it would, but there are many readily available Ethernet boards out there that have a serial port on them. I am guessing he used one of these and build the software for the Atari to control the beast. I am not sure how many boards out there have a parallel, memory or processor interface...though, I did find a few for the CS8900a. The EDTP Nicki could be interfaced to the Cart Port just like the EE-100 I used, and also there are many "Easy" ethernet baords at this site that have a serial port: EDTP I would like to see a Serial to VGA adaptor used in an Atari: Micro-vga VGA-232 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 (edited) You are absolutely right about the cartridge port. I just don't have the hardware chops to rig that up. I am a software guy. One of the reasons I am posting this scheme this weekend is the hope that somebody will try to get this interfaced that way. I'd be more than happy to adapt the software layer to it. The SIO communication is at 56k, which is pretty good really. The original everquest could be played at 56k on dial up. I think some kind of tile based RPG or RTS would be doable. I was sort of planning on doing the actual server on a Falcon or TT030, and then the client would be 8 bit. I am pretty well versed in how to do syncronicity and other issues involved with multi-user game play. It's not going to be a fast action shooter, but something like gauntlet or maybe a souped uo Telengard should be doable. The software layers are actually pretty generic, and could be hosted on any box that can run DOS, has a serial port and can run and the WATTCP freeware and that has a NIC. The big drawback is that there is no way to asyncronously push data from the NIC down to the atari, so it has to be polled for certain circumstances, such as waiting for a connect on a listen port. But I am providing non-blocking calls that can provide the information on a polled basis as often as the user wishes. But the hardware solution I am working with is small, cheap, and provides some good capabilities,and it fits inside the case very neatly. It's sort of like installing a very small laptop inside of your Atari. A few case mods and boom you are on the net. Sorta...I mean nobody is going to be browsing anything, but telnet and sockets based stuff like that should be possible. Even UDP, which would be buffered on the NIC board itself. Edited August 9, 2005 by danwinslow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 As far as the general purpose drawing protocol, thats a technique that is well proven and very, very useful. But you give up some speed for generality, so in this case I would think that a very specific client side would be the way to go, especially for things like speculative movement etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 And...you know, I just measured the board, and it is JUST barely larger than a standard cartridge! Its exactly as wide, but about a half an inch longer. Here's the board : http://www.jkmicro.com/products/picoflash.html It would be pretty cool to have a PC-on-a-cart to plug in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybernoid Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Very cool. I wouldn't rule out anyone browsing. It wouldn't be too difficult once this is setup to issue http commands to port 80 to a web server and make a simple http parser. Of course most of the web these days needs something much more than simple html... flash, etc... grrr... to view. Anyway, this is a very cool project. You sound like you know your stuff, I could definitely use your sockets talents on the game server. I thought about using perl as well for the game server since you can easily run it on multiple machines. I have a Carina II BBS emulator (not nearly finished yet) written in PERL that uses sockets and non-blocking calls... pretty cool. I didn't know you could do these C-type things in PERL, so this was my experiment with it... Please post about your ethernet project when you can. I am interested in this one! -C- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageX Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 The SIO communication is at 56k, which is pretty good really. The original everquest could be played at 56k on dial up. I think some kind of tile based RPG or RTS would be doable. 907852[/snapback] The likes of Doom and Warcraft 2 worked fine across 9600bps for 2 players. I think I tried one or the other at 2400bps (this was almost 10yrs ago) and it did suffer some slowdown. Also, I have used windoze dial-up networking to make a connection via 14.4Kbps which worked for Warcraft 3. Even with a lot of bandwidth there could still be problems with latency but I think as long as you stay away from action/arcade style games you'll be fine. An RTS or RPG game would be cool. Something like the addictive Japanese game series Super Robot Tasien aka Super Robot Wars would be great for a multiplayer game (and latency/bandwidth would not be a problem). Let me know if you're not familiar and I could explain how the game works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoatofCar Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 Would you be able to do MULE? It's the kind of game that's just begging for network support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 I played Falcon on the ST over a 2400 baud modem - it was a bit slow but the graphics were pretty good on that game - I was able to blow my buddy out of the sky numerous times Maybe Midimaze updated with modem support Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted August 12, 2005 Author Share Posted August 12, 2005 I don't think I plan to try to network-ize any existing games. That might be possible with some OS hackery for some games, but I don't think I have the skills for that kind of thing. I just want to come up with a cheap, easily connected board and a simple API in C, Basic, Action and ML so that people can use it to do new games with sockets-type netwrok connectivity. Re-doing something *like* MULE is sure possible...I just don't know what MULE is like...some sort of early RTS game from what I gather. Believe it or not, I've never played it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted August 15, 2005 Author Share Posted August 15, 2005 minor update - Was able to hit the time server ntp1.fau.de on port 37 ( TIME protocol ) from the atari and pull in the time hack. Here's the user code ( this is from the WATTCP sample apps ). Its basically unchanged, but I commented out some stuff I don't have yet. Finishing up this will take it all the way to setting the system clock. This was compiled under cc65 and run under sparta. d2:ntime ntp1.fau.de /* Notes: * The time is the number of seconds since 00:00 (midnight) 1 January 1900 * GMT, such that the time 1 is 12:00:01 am on 1 January 1900 GMT; this * base will serve until the year 2036. * * For example: * * 2,208,988,800L corresponds to 00:00 1 Jan 1970 GMT, start of UNIX time * */ #define TIME_PORT 37 #define BASE_TIME 2208988800L /* * ntime() given the host address, returns an Internet based time, not an * UNIX or DOS time. The UNIX time may be derived by subtracting * BASE_TIME from the returned value. */ long ntime( longword host ) { static tcp_Socket telsock; tcp_Socket *s; int status; long temptime; int sock_delay; s = &telsock; status = 0; temptime = 0L; if (!tcp_open( s, 0, host, TIME_PORT, NULL )) { puts("Sorry, unable to connect to that machine right now!"); return( 1 ); } printf("waiting...\r"); sock_wait_established((sock_type *)s, 30 , (sockfunct_t )NULL, &status); if (status == -1) goto sock_err; printf("connected \n"); while ( 1 ) { sock_tick((sock_type *)s, &status ); if (sock_dataready( (sock_type *)s ) >= 4 ) { sock_read( (sock_type *)s, (byte *)&temptime, sizeof( long )); temptime = ntohl( temptime ); /* convert byte orderring */ sock_close( (sock_type *)s ); return( temptime ); /* TODO: ??? */ } } sock_err: switch (status) { case 1 : /* foreign host closed */ return( temptime ); case -1: /* timeout */ printf("\nConnection timed out!"); return( 0 ); default: printf("Aborting"); return( 0 ); } } int main(int argc, char **argv ) { longword host; longword newtime; longword addminutes; if (argc < 2) { puts(" DAYTIME server [addminutes]"); exit( 3 ); } if (argc == 3 ) addminutes = atol( argv[2] ) * 60L; else addminutes = 0L; sock_init(); if ( (host = resolve( argv[1])) != 0uL ) { if ( (newtime = ntime( host )) != 0uL ) { //newtime = newtime - BASE_TIME + addminutes; /* now in UNIX format */ //unixtodos( newtime, &dstruct, &tstruct ); //settime( &tstruct ); //setdate( &dstruct ); printf("Time set to %s", ctime( (time_t *)&newtime )); exit( 0 ); } printf("\nUnable to get the time from that host\n"); exit( 1 ); } printf("Could not resolve host '%s'\n", argv[1]); exit( 3 ); return (0); /* not reached */ } Getting a lot closer, another week or two to alpha I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 This is exactly the type of game I have been working on for over a year now... not much is done, but I have been trying to generate a RTS game that may turn into a turn based strategy game if the systerm requirements are too much. Basically, I have code to turn any Atari 8bit computer with APE into a game terminal. I have code to generate maps and send the data to the Atari computers. The only difference is that the map/game server computer is a Linux box, not an Atari computer... this way the maps can be huge and the server fast. Basically, the game server acts like a text BBS, but the text gets generated as graphics on the Atari. So the game server has a fairly simple text interface, so any computer can talk to it. Cool! I spent about three years working on a multi-player RPG style game on the PC in my spare time and since I've put that project on indefinite hold, I've been kicking around doing something similiar on the 8-bit. I've got some great game-play ideas (I think), but some of them may not be feasible on the 8-bit. It's nice to know that network play is doable. I guess your "server" is basically a telnet server? I'd be very interested in the general design of the system. There are some other people out there helping on project DOA. I'll let you know when code becomes something you can download... Looking forward to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybernoid Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 Cool! I spent about three years working on a multi-player RPG style game on the PC in my spare time and since I've put that project on indefinite hold, I've been kicking around doing something similiar on the 8-bit. I've got some great game-play ideas (I think), but some of them may not be feasible on the 8-bit. It's nice to know that network play is doable. I guess your "server" is basically a telnet server? I'd be very interested in the general design of the system. 911446[/snapback] Shawn, Great to hear from you! I know that you have been doing some things with cc65 over at least the last few years, so it would be great to have you on board on this project. Yes, the server is basically a telnet server... The design is simple enough that you can telnet to the server without the game client, log in and send the underlying commands to download the game map... It will probably be October or November before I can turn this into an open source project.... but you are definitely welcome! In fact, anyone who is interested PM me; I'll get this project rolling again... -C- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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