Pitfall Harry Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 When it comes to discussion of the rarest of the rare it is impossible to be certain about anything. Production numbers are unknown, as are the numbers of unsold stock which is lost or has been destroyed. Keeping a watchful eye on eBay doesn't help much either, because games like Air Raid, Eli's Ladder, Video Life and Gauntlet come up for auction far too infrequently to suggest any one of them is more rare than another. Polling other collectors is inconclusive because it is difficult to find anyone who has even one of these four games. And it is not too hard to imagine that some collectors deliberately conceal the fact that they own one (or more!) of these extreme rarities. Keeping quiet helps maintain perceived rarity and value at a high, which could come in very handy when the decision is finally made to sell. What would you do if you found a box of 50 Video Life's at a church rummage sale? How might the honest revelation of such a find affect you as a bidder when the first of them hits the eBay auction block? When the $$$ climb higher, the facts grow ever fuzzier. Marco has the right idea. Think of the rarest of the rare as a Top Four or Five. I agree with all of his choices except MagiCard for the very reason he states himself. All evidence points to it being not as rare as Video Life. For me, choosing among the remaining four is impossible. Crowning an "Absolute Rarest" by democratic vote may be great fun, but it doesn't prove anything. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincYnoTi Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 so how many confirmed copies are there of ntsc versions of atari bmx, motorodeo and ikari warriors and mangia in collectors' hands? is it fewer than video life? there seems to be a lot of skepticism that these even exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitfall Harry Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 quote: Originally posted by CincYnoTi: so how many confirmed copies are there of ntsc versions of atari bmx, motorodeo and ikari warriors and mangia in collectors' hands? is it fewer than video life? there seems to be a lot of skepticism that these even exist. I have no idea. "Confirmed copies" of NTSC games are tough to come by. If you do not own both a PAL and an NTSC copy of a particular rare title to make direct comparisons for yourself, then the only way to be certain your game is NTSC is to make a ROM dump of it and know what to look for in its disassembly. Only a tiny handful of collectors know how to dump, disassemble and analyze the 6502 assembly code in order to make a positive determination of the game's format. Those who are not up to the task are extremely reluctant to pop the centerpiece of their collection in the mail to have a stranger analyze it for them and (hopefully) send it back. Collectors HATE to subject their trophy cartridges to the risks of the mail, as well as to the risk of discovering their cartridge may not be nearly as rare as they enjoy thinking it is. So, a lot of collectors fall back on the "Flip" Test (see my earlier post on this thread) and accept the inconclusive results as PROOF that they have the ultra-rare NTSC version of the game. As a result, the figures of how many collectors have NTSC copies of the games you've cited are grossly overreported. Just how many copies are out there is extremely difficult to know. And as I stated earlier, I personally believe that an NTSC production version of Mangia' does not exist. What makes the Top Four rare games (Air Raid, Eli's Ladder,Gauntlet and Video Life) most interesting is that there is no PAL versus NTSC issue. A collector cannot find a less rare alternative to settle for because all four of these games are known to exist in only one format. This "no alternative" aspect makes them all the more rare and feverishly sought after by collectors. Ben [ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: Pitfall Harry ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bones Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 quoteCollectors like to believe what they have is something extraordinarily rare. Many will be satisfied that their Obelix or their Mangia' is the ultra-rare NTSC version if it passes the simplest of tests. That test is usually the "Flip" test -- plug the game into NTSC equipment and if it dosen't make the TV screen roll vertically then the game has to be NTSC. But I have several PAL games which pass the Flip Test. They do not make my TV screen roll. Some do, some don't. Some make one TV screen roll but have no affect on another. The Mangia' cartridge from my personal collection, for example, is PAL. But it passes the Flip Test on every NTSC TV I have tested it on. The fact that the Flip Test is inconclusive matters not to a collector who really wants to believe he has captured the holy grail. What other ways are there to test for NTSC/PAL other than the flip test? I ask because I have an Obelix that works just fine on my NTSC Atari. The cartridge was acquired in the US from a non-collector, which makes me think it's NTSC. It's not that important either way, tho certainly nice that it runs on my Atari (: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 quote: Originally posted by bones: What other ways are there to test for NTSC/PAL other than the flip test? I ask because I have an Obelix that works just fine on my NTSC Atari. The cartridge was acquired in the US from a non-collector, which makes me think it's NTSC. Dump it and count lines - one of our tech boys will certainly know what to look for in the ROM image. Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 quote: Originally posted by CincYnoTi: so how many confirmed copies are there of ntsc versions of atari bmx, motorodeo and ikari warriors and mangia in collectors' hands? is it fewer than video life? there seems to be a lot of skepticism that these even exist. All I can say about these is pure speculation. Anyway, my idea would be that it would be less likely for a big firm like Atari to produce/release only a handful of copies of one of their games - even their last releases) than it is for a firm like Men-A-Vision. Plausible? Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Atari master marty: I'm almost positive that Air Raid is rarer.Since i've been collecting i have seen 2 or 3 Video Life's on ebay. I have never seen an air raid on ebay. If youre going to CGE and you own an air raid bring it so I can drool all over it. I actually enjoyed playing some air raid on my emulator (when it was working). Are you sure about that? I must have missed them all... Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolenta Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Atari master marty: I'm almost positive that Air Raid is rarer.Since i've been collecting i have seen 2 or 3 Video Life's on ebay. I have never seen an air raid on ebay. An Air Raid went on Ebay last year for around $500. I wish I bid on it since it's one of the few 2600 carts I need (the other's being Gauntlet and Mangia) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitfall Harry Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 quote: Originally posted by rolenta: An Air Raid went on Ebay last year for around $500. I wish I bid on it since it's one of the few 2600 carts I need (the other's being Gauntlet and Mangia) Time does fly. Actually, the Air Raid eBay auction you speak of was back in October of 1999. And that copy of Air Raid went for $542.00 if I recall correctly. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincYnoTi Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 i don't recall seeing any video life auctions, but i remember the air raid one. here are the 10's i've seen on ebay: air raid, gauntlet, obelix, quadrun, magicard, eli's ladder (auction ended early), music machine, mangia (questionable if ntsc), vidco copy cart, boxed motorodeo (upside down label, was that ntsc? thought it was sold by someone from atariage or digital press) has anyone seen any other 10's on ebay (beagle bros, xante, romox, karate, atlantisII) i've seen all the 9's on ebay before, except for the ntsc bomb games... hey rolenta, you won a bomb game (assault?) once on ebay buried in a lot of 2600 games, was it ntsc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 quote: Originally posted by CincYnoTi: i don't recall seeing any video life auctions, but i remember the air raid one. here are the 10's i've seen on ebay: air raid, gauntlet, obelix, quadrun, magicard, eli's ladder (auction ended early), music machine, mangia (questionable if ntsc), vidco copy cart, boxed motorodeo (upside down label, was that ntsc? thought it was sold by someone from atariage or digital press) I think it's fair to say that NTSC Obelix and Quadrun should be a 9 (at the most), and Music Machines should be an 8, I think. quoteHas anyone seen any other 10's on ebay (beagle bros, xante, romox, karate, atlantisII)? I've seen one Romox cart being sold on Ebay. In fact, I sold it myself (to Tempest). Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincYnoTi Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 not sure if this is the right thread to find an answer but ... i have a sealed pal obelix and an open/boxed ntsc obelix (well at least it does not scroll on my old tv like pal games do and the pal obelix i used to have). if i open up the pal version and play it and the tv rolls and i play the ntsc version and it does not roll, is that conclusive that the game is really ntsc? (same tv, same atari, one rolls, one does not roll) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitfall Harry Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by CincYnoTi: not sure if this is the right thread to find an answer but ... i have a sealed pal obelix and an open/boxed ntsc obelix (well at least it does not scroll on my old tv like pal games do and the pal obelix i used to have). if i open up the pal version and play it and the tv rolls and i play the ntsc version and it does not roll, is that conclusive that the game is really ntsc? (same tv, same atari, one rolls, one does not roll) That would be enough to convince me. And I'm more of a skeptic than most. I'd also check to see if there are any onscreen color differences between your two games. Normally, I would dismiss color as convincing evidence, since colors can vary considerably from one TV to the next, as can the colors output from different consoles playing the exact same cartridge on the exact same TV. But if ONLY the game cartridge is different, then any color variations you detect would also be compelling evidence -- and I would regard it as PROOF-- that your two games are different in format. I'm very interested in your proposed experiment. Please post back your results if you give it a try. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Pitfall Harry: ...then the only way to be certain your game is NTSC is to make a ROM dump of it and know what to look for in its disassembly. You don't have to disassemble the ROM. Normally letting an emulator tell you the number of displayed lines (262/312) should be enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariDude Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 The rarest game of all is the E.T. cartridges that got buried in a landfill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Oberhäuser Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 What's about Avalon Hill's "Out of Control"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahfish Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 i think the rarest one is galactor from videoLoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atarian7 Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 THe rarest game of all, you guessed it: a sealed copy of pac-man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 Jah Fish wrote: quote: i think the rarest one is galactor from videoLoc What the hell is this? [ 05-30-2002: Message edited by: Russ Perry Jr ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 Jah Fish wrote: quote: i think the rarest one is galactor from videoLoc What the hell is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahfish Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 if it's too rare, i can take it off the list again ... ok, just jocking ... i guess air raid makes the race this time ... all other games are known to be in the hands of a few collectors ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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