Atari 7800, First impressions

[Paranoid]

So, I never owned an Atari 7800 back when they were available. They always *looked* like the Atari 2600 Jr. to me, and I just assumed they would suck. The games probably didn't look very compelling at the time, either. I ended up with a NES. Even then, I had experienced the 1984 shake out and had gone the way of the PC (I'm going to guess around this time it was the C=128 that I had... but later it would have been Amiga and ST, then PCs). Anyhow... so, I was late on the NES... the first time I played it was at my 8 year old Niece's house... and after getting hooked on Mario Land, I knew I had to have one.

 

So, my first impressions on the 7800 are actually something that I recall thinking about the NES. The colors are real flat and muted. They're not as dynamic and "sparkly" as the 5200, for example. The colors look dusty, murky... filmy. Even the 2600 games seem to have more vivid hues than the 2600 (which makes me wonder why the pallette would look dusty and murky for a 7800 game, when the hardware can create, for example, vivid yellows in Atari 2600 mode). But anyhow, I've gone through and played a handful of games, and Galaga was the one that really struck me. I've heard a lot about this game as a great title on the 7800... especially compared to the "disappointment" of Galaxians on the 5200.

 

Frankly, I don't get that. Galaga doesn't seem choppy, it seems almost just SLOW. It doesn't feel like the game is stuttering or "hanging" (like the infamous hanging formations in 5200 Galaxians)... it just seems like no matter what is going on, it has a lazy, relaxed pace. It doesn't have any sense of excitement or action. And the graphics seem flat and dull. There just isn't that vivid black, with icy twinkling stars in the background. Everything is rendered very well... it isn't *ugly* at all, and is a very good representation. It just doesn't have any pop or wow going on.

 

Robotron was the same thing. The graphics here are FAR beyond the 5200 version. Yet the gameplay itself, isn't. The 5200 version is *not* the most edge of your seat excitement compared to the arcade version (which is one of my favorite MAME titles, although I was horrible at this game in the arcade), but the 5200 definetly has a faster pace and a more impressive sense of urgency. Again, though, the colors seem dull and lifeless. To be fair, the 5200 version, if you didn't know it was Robotron, there isn't a lot more than the game mechanics and title screen to tip you off to this fact. The 7800 version is recognizably this game. That certainly counts for something. The 5200 is really an ugly version of the game, all things considered. But for actual game play, I think I'm going to say I prefer the 5200 version. It just seems faster, more hectic and truer to the original.

 

I played a few other titles that were interesting, but I'm going to skip ahead to Xevious. I'd read real impressive reviews of this title, and I've got to admit, for the time and competition, Xevious is the real deal. If I had known they had a version of Xevious and that it was THIS accurate, I absolutely would have had one of these back in the day, and it probably would have been my favorite console of all time, based on this title alone. What I would have DONE for a version of Xevious this true, even as recently as 10 years ago. Again, the colors are flat, but I've seen the proto of the 5200 Xevious, and flat or not, this version beats the 5200 verison hands down. The 5200 had flat colors *and* you couldn't recognize things *and* the graphics were just plain ugly. Fair enough, the 5200 was a proto, and maybe with some development time it would have looked far better at release, but based on Robotron, I'm guessing this last generation of classic games was beyond the 5200s abilities. On the 7800, I not only recognize everything, it is all more or less exactly where I expect it to be. Out of habit I line myself up for the next ground targets, and they're right there where I expect them to be. I haven't checked for flags and citadels, but, that would be a minor quibble at most. Xevious must be this console's Countermeasure... the real *reason* for having or still owning one. Now, later versions of Xevious (most notably from the PS-1 on) would arrive that really played an incredibly faithful and far superior homage to the original than the 7800 version... but, through the whole 16-bit era, as far as I know, the 7800 seems to have been the king of Xevious at home. Today, you can have any number of authentic Xevious experiences, including MAME, with arcade quality controls. But, even the PS-1 version left me wanting more, simply because of the PS-1 D-pad solution. You could always buy an arcade type stick for the PS-1, and in fact, that is just what I did, but the 7800 with it's simple two button joystick was ready to play a mean Xevious what, almost 6 years prior to this being an option. As a guy who has spent a small fortune with the sole goal of having Xevious at home, I've got to say the 7800 version kicks ass in light of when it was originally available. Now I've got Jakks stand alone versions (2), a PS-1 version with arcade style stick, the XBox version, the Microsoft PC version release, and a full mame cabinet. Going for the MAME cabinet introduced me to the FB2 which got me started on seriously pursuing the whole Atari retro thing, in fact. Outside of MAME, the only other version I can see myself really *wanting* to play of Xevious in the future is the 7800 version. It is just cool. A little different, but faithful enough, to be compelling. The other versions are either spot on with crummy controls, or so close to the MAME version that I might as well play it on MAME with a full arcade cab wrapped around it. Seriously, this game is a crown jewel in the 7800s small library of titles.

 

Now... the only *problem* with Xevious has nothing to do with the game, and everything to do with a classic argument. The 7800 sticks. They *do* work well enough for Xevious... but the problem is the two fire buttons, one for shooting, and one for bombing. I've seen arguments before pitting the 5200 stick against the 7800 stick... and generally speaking, the 5200 has far fewer supporters. Let me tell you, popular opinion is *wrong*, in this case. The 5200 stick is a FAR better stick, overall, than the 7800 one. The 7800 stick, when I first saw it, seemed to me an evolution of the 5200 stick where they kind of combined an original CX40 stick with a CX50 stick and came up with this bastard offspring. I always wondered about it. Atari clearly learned from their mistakes, or tried to. They kept the same basic shape of the 5200 stick, but removed the complexity of the built in keypad. They went back to an 8 way digital stick, but for some reason stuck a huge mushroom cap on the end of it (making it LOOK like it might work as a paddle... years later, Jaaks would innovate this idea in reality with their Twist joystick for Pole Position on the Ms. Pac Man TV game. I've always been surprised that it took so long, because I always thought the original 5200 and then the 7800 sticks looked like they were intended to do this). So far, nothing really wrong with the design. But leave it to Atari to come up a little short. In this case, where they went wrong was having one fire button on one side, one on the other. For a game like Xevious it becomes very clear in short order why this is the case. Your left button is fire, and your right is bomb, forcing you to reach under the controller with your index finger to bomb while also firing with your thumb. This is awkward, cramp inducing, and just plain frustrating. But they also made the width of the 7800 controller just a BIT thinner. I'm sure this was to make the controller more kid friendly for small hands. But for a larger hand, it forces you to really contort that index finger and kind of curve it BACK at the fire button. On the 5200, reaching under for the button on the other side is far more natural, allowing you to depress the right side buttons with the TIP of your index finger while using your thumb to comfortably fire the left side button. It isn't a PERFECT solution on the 5200, but it is far more natural and comfortable than the 7800, especially for the long haul. If the 7800 stick is "technically" better than the 5200, it is simply because it employs more reliable, older technology that isn't as high maintainence. I can't argue that point. In all other facets, the 7800 stick strikes me as a far worse controller. It isn't more versatile, it isn't more comfortable and it isn't very asthetic to look at. Which doesn't mean the 7800 stick is horrible. It is perfectly servicable, if a lot more likely to induce hand cramping during marathon game sessions. It just isn't as nice of a stick as the 5200 controller. Forget what you've been told.

 

And finally, the Cuttle Cart 2. What an amazing product. I can't find any fault with it, although I would have prefered it to use SD Cards instead of MMC. Making it a 7800 cart was genius, as it really allows a *gamer* to consolidate two systems very comfortably into one and put his 2600 into storage. If you're a collector, this might take away part of the fun (of course, if you're a collector, you'll have one just because it needs to be part of your complete collection, and no price can stand between the serious collector and his complete collection, even if he doesn't plan on actually using the thing)... Once you figure the price of carts, a Supercharger, some method of feeding the Supercharger games into the Supercharger itself (tape, Mp3 player, whatever)... and a 7800 and collection of carts, the CC2 really just makes logical sense. This is without really considering the value add of the convienience of having all of your games in an easy, customizable, menu driven format and the space savings both in carts and systems. Granted, the 7800 library seems mostly like something you would thrown in free as an incentive... "Listen, it is a great 2600 system, plus it plays these mostly mediocre other games, as well..." If not for Xevious 7800, that would certainly be the case.

 

Anyhow, I'm really excited... and if anyone out there has been sitting on the fence, I think now is the time to jump and get yourself a 7800 and a CC2... I've got a feeling the CC2 is at closeout prices because it is at the end of it's run. Maybe if you wait Chad will release a CC2.1 or 3 that uses SD cards... but that seems like a gamble. (I'll be a little miffed if that gamble pans out, actually... heh...) Really the CC2 was a good deal at $200... at $150, it is a relative bargain. I'm really enjoying the whole package.

[SHAGOHOD X99]

Bought me my first 7800 ProSystem + 35 games

package deal last month. Had never owned one

nor played one for much the same reasons as you

stated. *However, I actually like (and prefer) the

dark/filmy color hues you mentioned over the brighter

hues the 2600 and even NES gave off. Then I'm the

dude who likes the "grainy" image that .8mm film gives

off for recording purposes, and thought the slight pixelization

of VCD movies was neat.

 

That said, I've had more fun with my 7800 than I have with

any other system in recent history. Robotron 2084 can be a

bitch at times (even with the CX-78 gamepad), but I'm now

able to at least make it to Level 12 before it's game over. I

actually prefer the 7800 version of Commando over the

Famicom version as well. More emphasis was one taking out

the enemy than resucing prisoners and/or looking for secret

underground bases. I still think it also be a great game

(Commando) to hack to port the 1986 Taito RGS game LSA

SQUAD [storming Party] to the ProSystem for as well.

 

GALAGA I liked better on the 7800 over the Famicom/NES

version as well, even though the Bandai "port" is closer to

the arcade version. When I look at and play the 7800 I can't

help but think what might have been had Atari been able to

get some serious 3rd party devs under it's wing, and the

system really pushed to it's limits. I'm no fool, it's far from

what the Famicom/NES ended up being, but it didn't really

get a fair shake either. Now that I have one (a 7800) it's

never leaving my collection I know that much.

[Paranoid]

See... I think this is an interesting contrast of opinions and experience, too. You seem to have a lot of experience with the NES/Famicon. I never really went beyond Mario Brothers on the NES, beyond Sonic on the Genesis 1, and then finally beyond Super Mario World (with Yoshi and all that) on the Super NES. After that... I didn't own another console until the XBox was released. Games like Commando are also a good example of what I consider the "2nd wave" of Arcade "classics". If a game like Xevious or Robotron was kind of a bridge between the first wave, then Commando would be right at the start of the 16 bit era... Space Harrier is another one of those games on the cusp when 68000 CPUs started showing up. I had an Amiga, and of course, the Genisis, but for the most part, the 16 bit generation was just... I was a lot older... 17, I had a lot of other interests, and it didn't have the captivation it did for me when I was younger. The graphics went up a quantum leap in detail when those over-head scrolling combat games started popping up, and it was the beginning of the era of games where shit was exploding *EVERYWHERE* on screen in highly rendered detail. I mean, Defender and Stargate and even Robotron had a lot of things going on and a lot you had to be doing at once... but these later games just got insane (this was also when the Vanguard type side-scrollers from hell like R-Type started to show up, transforming, things everywhere, balls of fire in a shield around you, whipping tails of explosions... sensory overload...). I pretty much stuck to the Motorcycle and Car games during this era. Heh. Some Gauntlet and Rampage from time to time. I guess I was starting to get old. LOL.

 

Level 5 on Robotron:7800 was a royal PITA... but I was using a single joystick so I couldn't run from the Brain lasers while shooting them, I had to run AT the lasers, which didn't prove to be an effective strategy. *snicker*. Up until that point, though, I felt like I could have toyed with them all day on a single man. Level 12 is a "good game" for me on MAME.

 

I've wondered about the euro joypads, but frankly, that is one of the things I dislike from the NES on, as well as with emulation, so I can't imagine that I'd feel any different about those. I'll probably stick to a CX40 stick on the 7800 where I can, and pull out the 7800 sticks when I have to for two fire buttons. I'm *certain* I wouldn't like the joypads for 2600 games. Again, this seems to be a gaming-generation preference thing. People who cut their teeth on NES seem to prefer pads, people who cut their teeth on the 2600 prefer a real stick.

 

I did have a question I wanted to ask, too. I read up on the hardware, 3 versions, all of that. I've got one with the side expansion panel, so that is first generation, right? That is supposed to be the preferable version in terms of broad compatability? Is that the only reason it is prefered? My SN is 72r4br AT8445917, in case someone can look up info based on that. How do you tell the three versions apart, or at least, the last two versions, if the main difference is the expansion port?

[shadow460]

you need to hop on bard with our High Score Competition. This week it's round 2 of Food Fight, but that's an awesome game.

 

As for Galaga, if you want it fast, play the expert mode.

[Paranoid]

I'm still figuring it all out. Heh. And leave it to me to ask the questions that are in the FAQ and forget to ask the questions that I couldn't find there.

 

So, it looks like I have an earlier model than console #1 in the compatability tests in the FAQ, judging by serial number... which would be cool, as that console seemed to test VERY high in compatability and evidently was better constructed.

 

The only question that remains is that there are two slider switches up front by the joysticks. I'm *guessing* they are difficulty switches. Is that correct? There is also a switch underside near the RF that I'm guessing is the Ch3/4 switch... and I thought I saw one more slider switch somewhere.

 

I've seen the high score competition... how do I find out more about entering it? And, now I suppose I'll have to download Food Fight, or wait for the next game on the list.

[Paranoid]

I hate to side-track and I'm not sure where I should post this, but I'll tie it into the CC2 and thus the 7800 and that should make it appropriate for this thread.

 

I'm *loving* the CC2. Well, more specifically, I had forgotten just how innovative and enjoyable the Supercharger line of games was. I must have gotten my 5200 fairly shortly after the Supercharger, because I can remember just losing interest in the entire 2600 library, and thinking that even the Supercharger games were pretty lame compared to the 5200 titles...

 

Which may be true, in a sense... but... Communist Mutants from Outerspace is an *excellent* medly of Galaxians, Space Invaders, and Phoenix/Pleades/Demon Attack. The fact that the alien lays eggs that are simply squares was one of the things that I remember going, "lame"... but understanding what they were doing now, it is really an innovative way to include the marching invaders in columns with the dropping higher-res invaders hovering around. I think as a kid, I was more "brand conscious", too... and so Galaxians was *Galaxians* (and as a bonus it looked and sounded pretty close to the Arcade), whereas Communist Mutants from Outer Space... wasn't Galaxians. Heh.

 

But really, it seems like Supercharger games are kind of like pizza and sex... Even the bad ones are pretty good.

 

I was also blown away and actually a little, I dunno, upset, by Pac Man Arcade. All of the arguments for WHY the original, even if improved, probably never would have been *this* good are kind of lost on me. Even if the programmers didn't know all the tricks, even if they didn't have access to carts with bigger memory carts, it could have been *better* than it was. I mean, this was a MAJOR release, and I can see how disappointment with the end result hurt Atari's reputation and may have played a part in the crash, having now seen this hack. I'm not even a huge pac-man fan, nor was I. I mostly loaded and played this for acedemic purposes, to see what could have been and how it would have felt on a TV screen with a real console. One of the things about the 5200 that I love is that that version, like the 8-Bit verrsion, is so spot on, despite being stretched out. I had a friend with an 800, and I remember seeing PacMan over there a good year, maybe two, before the 2600 cart. Having survived the 2600 cart, when the 5200 came out and I saw THAT, I just lost all hope for the 2600. Which was wrong. The hacked version doesn't exactly rival the 5200 version, but *man*... it is *good*. The 2600 *did* have a lot of life left in it, and it is no wonder that it continued to sell for so long.

 

Same thing with Defender II. It makes you wonder how they could face themselves coming out with such a clearly superior product. It is almost like *admitting*, "Ok... we kind of slacked on the first one, we didn't give it our all... we kind of ripped you off". The Defender, Defender II thing may be worse than the Pac Man, Pac Man Arcade Hack thing, as the hack is a homebrew done decades later using a superior base to build on, with years of collected experience and wisdom. Defender rto Defender II were right within the same era... not THAT much had changed, right?

 

...best $150 spent on retrogaming... ever. Heh.

[JagFan422]

wow, you spent $150 on the 7800???? The 7800 is hardly worth spending $2 on, crappiest game system i've ever played. Or maybe its just the games i have, but still, Atari really dropped the ball on this system.

 

Are there any ORIGINAL titles for the 7800 that are enjoyable?? Not old arcade remakes, 2600 remakes, or remakes from other systems?

[The_Laird]

wow, you spent $150 on the 7800???? The 7800 is hardly worth spending $2 on, crappiest game system i've ever played. Or maybe its just the games i have, but still, Atari really dropped the ball on this system.

 

Are there any ORIGINAL titles for the 7800 that are enjoyable?? Not old arcade remakes, 2600 remakes, or remakes from other systems?

 

What about Midnight Mutants, Ninja Golf (the best game on the system!) , Meltdown, Alien Brigade or Tank Command?

 

For that matter I really like Jinks (although many people hate it!) and also think Water Ski is quite a cool original title, if a bit on the hard side.

[+FujiSkunk]

...I haven't checked for flags and citadels [in Xevious], but, that would be a minor quibble at most...

 

They're there, and they're right where you'll expect them to be.

 

Xevious and Food Fight were the reasons to own an Atari 7800. The other early arcade ports are also all good, with the one exception being Galaga (my humble opinion, of course).

 

As for Galaga, if you want it fast, play the expert mode.

 

That helps, but really it's a cop-out. It doesn't tweak the difficulty, it just starts a standard game at level 10.

 

 

The only question that remains is that there are two slider switches up front by the joysticks. I'm *guessing* they are difficulty switches. Is that correct? There is also a switch underside near the RF that I'm guessing is the Ch3/4 switch... and I thought I saw one more slider switch somewhere.

 

You've got all those right. One small caveat is that on the 7800, the difficulty settings are left for novice or B, and right for expert or A. This is opposite what they are on the 2600 (sort of, depending on which way you look at the switches on the 2600).

 

There shouldn't be any other such switches on the 7800. The 7800 does have the 2600's color/B&W switch, but on the 7800, it's a button labeled "PAUSE." Sneaky, eh?

[8th lutz]

I got a 7800 for christmas in 1989. I thought is a cool system since I never played or owned a nes that time with my brother and I being able to play 2600 games on it. Galaga is slow. It picks up after the first 10 waves it seems with mine. I like its early arcade hits and ballblazzer my self. Too bad the 7800 isn't closer to the 5200 so the 8 bit computer games that atarimax ported to the 5200 would be on the 7800.

[Paranoid]

wow, you spent $150 on the 7800???? The 7800 is hardly worth spending $2 on, crappiest game system i've ever played. Or maybe its just the games i have, but still, Atari really dropped the ball on this system.

 

Are there any ORIGINAL titles for the 7800 that are enjoyable?? Not old arcade remakes, 2600 remakes, or remakes from other systems?

 

I spent $150 on the CC2.

 

I've seen this opinion about the 7800 before, and, minus Xevious, I can see how that could be your perspective (of course, you might not be a Xevious fan either, but, that would be a personal issue). Like I said, I see it as a 2600 with a bundle of pretty strong arcade ports added as a bonus. Now, on original release, versus the NES with all new titles, I can see how the 7800 just didn't have a lot to compete on. The 7800 wasn't cutting edge, it looks like the earliest games were kind of klunky and obviously the titles weren't super hot. From a retro-game perspective though, a 7800 is typically far less expensive than a 2600, has a larger library, and works with the Cuttle Cart, which is a real simple cut corner to your complaint about your limited game library. If you're not a fan of the 2600, then the 7800 doesn't buy you much. If you're looking for a 2600 and are a gamer and not a collector, it makes a lot more sense to just buy a 7800 for the added flexibility of that system. The only thing the 2600 buys you is the sense of nostalgia around the actual physical presence of an old-school VCS/2600 (assuming you get a 6 or 4 switcher... and even then, by the Darth-Vadar model I have no sense of nostalgia over the physical shape of the 2600, the DV model kind of signaled the end of the line in my mind, that is when the Atari 2600 took it's first step toward obselecence). Admittedly, I found an Atari 2600 in "the wild" at a thrift store for $4.75... and had to eBay my 7800... so, that skewers my perspective on cost savings. But, dollar per dollar, an older 2600 on eBay is going to generally fetch a higher going rate than a newer 7800 there, and the 7800 *is* a 2600. The 7800 library seems like a mostly a "you can take it or leave it" deal... But when you match a 7800 with a CC2, then you've got something worthwhile. Sure, a 2600 with a CC1 or modded Supercharger is an alternative, if you can find a CC1 or Supercharger and do the mod.

 

Anyhow, yeah, I don't think the 7800 by itself, with only it's original library, stands on it's own as a platform worth having (again, although if I had known about Xevious, back when they were originally available, I absolutely would have had the console and that one game). It is the 2600 compatability and the CC2 that makes it a sound investment from a retro-gaming perspective, *if* you are a fan of the 2600... which typically means a generational thing. If you don't get the draw of the 2600 (which probably means you're "younger"), then you can skip the whole thing.

 

Which is funny... there is this camp of younger "retro-gamers" around. They're too young to have fond memories of the 2600, and having grown up on the NES, they can't seem to connect with the allure of this system. The 7800 in native mode pales in comparisson to the NES that dominated their generation of gaming console, and the 2600 compatability is mostly lost on them... the 5200 is the system most of them are even willing to glance twice at, but the sticks often leave them cold. I think most of the people like this who are here are because of the Jag, which is a console I've never actually physically seen, and I feel the same way about the Jag they might about the 2600.

 

Which I'm fine with. The last thing I want is MORE people to have to compete with for the finite amount of these consoles and games available still.

 

It is worth noting that I bet a lot of retro-gamers from MY generation skip the 7800 for the same reason I did. They're just not familiar with it. I wanted a 2600, and I remember enough about the Coleco adaptor, the 5200 adaptor, and the clones like the Gemini that I was always cautious on the 7800. I figured (and rightly so) that it would have compatability issues (the later models do, anyhow, and it sounds like the ones that don't are rare). I knew enough to know that there might be risks with a 7800, and that a straight, old-school 2600 would probably not disappoint me in any way. I didn't know about the joysticks, I didn't know about the CC2 being a 7800 only package... I really didn't know that the carts were the exact same size, shape and pinout. It was only after getting back into the Atari 2600 that I found out enough to realize that the 7800 made a real good alternative to trying to rebuild a 2600 library.... and really, the FB2 is what got me off my butt about actually doing this... it gave me a taste of the old games that I missed. In retrospect, an Atari 5200 and a 7800 with Multicarts for both would have been fine for me. I suppose now I've got a pretty decent collection with spares for the future.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Paranoid

[DracIsBack]

wow, you spent $150 on the 7800???? The 7800 is hardly worth spending $2 on, crappiest game system i've ever played. Or maybe its just the games i have, but still, Atari really dropped the ball on this system.

 

Are there any ORIGINAL titles for the 7800 that are enjoyable?? Not old arcade remakes, 2600 remakes, or remakes from other systems?

 

Why do you post in this forum?

[Zonie]

I hate to side-track and I'm not sure where I should post this, but I'll tie it into the CC2 and thus the 7800 and that should make it appropriate for this thread.

 

 

 

Same thing with Defender II. It makes you wonder how they could face themselves coming out with such a clearly superior product. It is almost like *admitting*, "Ok... we kind of slacked on the first one, we didn't give it our all... we kind of ripped you off". The Defender, Defender II thing may be worse than the Pac Man, Pac Man Arcade Hack thing, as the hack is a homebrew done decades later using a superior base to build on, with years of collected experience and wisdom. Defender rto Defender II were right within the same era... not THAT much had changed, right?

 

...best $150 spent on retrogaming... ever. Heh.

2600 Defender was not as bad as Pac man. I actually liked it better than the arcade in many ways. The "City" made more sense than people wandering around the mountains.

 

It had it's own "aura" so to speak. I played it a lot. Made my own controller in the day. The only real downsides to 2600 defender were the smart bomb and hyperspace methods. If I can move up and not die, then I don't need hyperspace.

 

It should have released with it's own controller. Even just a joystick with 3-4 buttons like a vectrex would have been good, even if it needed to be plugged into both ports. Such a controller would have opened some doors for the system, and negated the need for the video touch pad with star raiders. It would have made Raiders better too.

Edited March 17, 2006 by Zonie

[SHAGOHOD X99]

wow, you spent $150 on the 7800???? The 7800 is hardly worth spending $2 on, crappiest game system i've ever played. Or maybe its just the games i have, but still, Atari really dropped the ball on this system.

 

Are there any ORIGINAL titles for the 7800 that are enjoyable?? Not old arcade remakes, 2600 remakes, or remakes from other systems?

 

Well I spent $99.75 for a 7800 ProSystem

w. 35 games (23 that were 7800 games) + all

hookups and (2) Proline Joysticks [which I quickly

replaced with 2 *new* CX-78s] and I'd have to

say I think it's Money well spent!

 

I guess it depends on how you look at these things.

All I ever see is ppl ragging on the 7800, partly why

I waited to long to get one, and I don't get the hate?

It's a fun system that has the compatiblity with the 2600,

can't ask for more than that. EXCEPT maybe seeing more

homebrews and hacks for it versus all the attention being

on the 2600VCS.

[Zonie]

Yeah, you would think there's be more homebrew activity, but the 2600 is king.

[Paranoid]

I just played Centipede:7800 for the first time, and I've got to say, first, I don't get why they put a border around it... and second, again... it just seems to lack the excitement of the 5200 version. It isn't a *bad* translation... again... the graphics, the sounds... the characters... they're all there. It just seems, I dunno, a little slower paced, a little less frentic. Maybe I just need to get through the early levels on these games... perhaps they were geared to start a little slower for home players (which kind of makes the name "pro"system kind of ironic) and younger kids... (as opposed to having Teddy-Bear versions like the 2600 had toward the end)... but my initial impression on several of the arcade ports have been... "wow... nice graphics... too bad the gameplay seems to be so bland." They don't suck. Joust is actually a really good port that matches the gameplay and far exceeds the graphics of the 5200 version. I enjoyed a round of 3-D asteroids today as well... which is a tricky version of the game that seems well done. You know... one thing I did notice about Joust:5200 versus Joust:7800... the stick on the 7800 doesn't have as much play, isn't as loose, and doesn't seem as responsive. I'm not sure if it is just a bad stick or if it is something about the physical I/O... but, maybe that is part of it. It seems like a real dead, heavy controller... and that just may be the digital 8 way as opposed to analog 360 degree. The 5200 controller you need to finesse... the 7800 you just kind of use brute force in the direction you want to go, and even then, it never seems like it moves far enough, fast enough. Hmnnn. I think I'm on to something here...

[jaybird3rd]

Yeah, you would think there's be more homebrew activity, but the 2600 is king.

Well, I'm going to work hard over the next year or two to remedy that imbalance ... ... but I think the 7800's missing authentication key was a major barrier to entry for many years, as was the relative lack of documentation (at least compared to the 2600). Now that the authentication issue has been resolved and Atari/GCC's internal documentation has been made public, we're finally beginning to see some exciting 7800 projects emerge (Beef Drop, Frogger, etc.)

 

Regarding some of the issues that Paranoid has mentioned ... one of the first things I knew I had to do when I got my first 7800 was to get a composite A/V modification for it. The RF modulator on my 7800 never gave me a good picture, but the mod made a dramatic difference. For some reason the POKEY sound on my particular unit is strangely quiet compared to the TIA sound, but beyond that, the audiovisuals are just perfect thanks to the mod. As far as the controllers go, you are seriously NOT experiencing the 7800 at its best if you're using the ProLine joysticks. They were the standard controllers for the system, unfortunately, but the joypads and other third-party solutions (the Space Invaders arcade controllers, etc.) are far better options.

 

Most of the very best software ever done for the 7800 was, in my opinion, the initial line of titles that GCC developed for Atari. Among my favorites are Asteroids, Ms. Pac-Man, Robotron 2084, Joust, Xevious, and Ballblazer. Atari's failure to attract "Grade-A" third-party developers meant that many of the later games were sub-par efforts that failed to use the hardware effectively (I'm thinking mostly of the ibid games here). It would be a big mistake to judge the capabilities of the system by looking at some of those later low-budget titles. I also have to question the games that Atari chose to port to the 7800 from other platforms: there seemed to be a lot of flight sim games and sports games, none of which have aged particularly well. Because of that, and because the 7800's library is quite small (less than 70 games if I remember correctly), I'll admit that the 7800 doesn't appear to be a very exciting system to first-time users today, especially compared to its contemporaries like the NES and SMS.

 

What really gets me excited about the 7800 (aside for the great games it does have) is the incredible untapped potential inside that console that is just waiting to be released by a few gifted homebrew developers. It's a funny and quirky little platform, and like the 2600 it's a very limited machine, but I believe it's still a great system for homebrew games. It certainly has a lot more untapped potential than the 2600, and it's well-suited for certain game ideas and genres that the 2600 can't do (or can't do well). Thanks to Eckhard Stolberg and his DevOS BIOS, it's possible to build development systems that are at least as good as the ones that Atari had, and emulation makes it even easier to develop for.

[The_Laird]

I actully think Centipede on the 7800 is an awesome conversion, love it alot, but then again i'm not so hot on Xevious. Horses for courses I guess.

 

Anyway there are loads of great titles for the machine so try some more out here are my faves:

 

Sports Winter Games, Summer Games, Mean 18

Fighting Double Dragon, Rampage, Ninja Golf (essential!!!!)

Platformers Joust, Mario Bros, Scrapayard Dog

Puzzle Klax

Light Gun Alien Brigade, Meltdown, Crossbow

Driving Fatal Run, Pole Position 2, Motor Psycho

Adventure Impossible Mission, Midnight Mutants, Dark Chambers

Shooters Commando, Ikari Warriors, Tank Command

Others Ms. Pacman, Jinks, Dig Dug, Basketbrawl, Xenophobe, Food Fight

[ZylonBane]

You have got to be kidding. Ninja Golf absolutely sucks. Sure it's got some of the best sprite graphics on the 7800, but the actual gameplay is horrid. I don't think I've ever played a beat-em-up with worse, more unintuitive control.

[jaybird3rd]

You have got to be kidding. Ninja Golf absolutely sucks. Sure it's got some of the best sprite graphics on the 7800, but the actual gameplay is horrid. I don't think I've ever played a beat-em-up with worse, more unintuitive control.

Ninja Golf is a suitably weird game concept for the 7800, but you're right: its execution was definitely undercooked. There are too many long stretches of running on the green with nothing going on, and the controls are in sad need of improvement. The graphics were pretty well-done, although I would have preferred seeing an animated ninja during the boss/dragon stages instead of a static figure that floats back and forth across the screen.

[Bakasama]

Yeah, you would think there's be more homebrew activity, but the 2600 is king.

Well, I'm going to work hard over the next year or two to remedy that imbalance ... ... but I think the 7800's missing authentication key was a major barrier to entry for many years, as was the relative lack of documentation (at least compared to the 2600). Now that the authentication issue has been resolved and Atari/GCC's internal documentation has been made public, we're finally beginning to see some exciting 7800 projects emerge (Beef Drop, Frogger, etc.)

 

You're working on some homebrew projects for the 7800? I love to see what you got planned. Given the games GCC made for the 7800, I find it a little odd that they never made Missile Command. I suppose it's a "been there, done that " kind of project.

 

I do think we're going to see more hacks before we see more homebrews simply because the homebrewers are still learning how to program for it.

[supercat]

You're working on some homebrew projects for the 7800? I love to see what you got planned. Given the games GCC made for the 7800, I find it a little odd that they never made Missile Command. I suppose it's a "been there, done that " kind of project.

 

Missile Command would be very tough to do without extra memory. Either one would have to be continuously mangling some rather strange display lists to draw missile trails out of various weird pieces, or else one would have to use a bunch of overlapping two-line-high display lists to create a 160x72 half-resolution bitmap. The mapping on this would have to be a little strange because of the way "offset" works. Something like:

 

$2400-$2427 -- Row 0

$2500-$2527 -- Row 1

$2600-$2627 -- Row 2

..

$2F00-$2F27 -- Row 11

$2428-$244F -- Row 12

$2528-$254F -- Row 13

..

$2FC8-$2FEF -- Row 71

 

I think this would require thirteen display lists for every group of 12 double-high pixels, or 78 for the bitmapped part of the screen. Although the display lists in RAM could be reused, the display list list would be over 234 bytes long (too bad it can't be in ROM).

 

Using that sort of bitmap design, a game like Missile Command or QIX might be possible on the 7800, but not nearly as nicely as on the 5200.

[+Mitch]

one of the first things I knew I had to do when I got my first 7800 was to get a composite A/V modification for it. The RF modulator on my 7800 never gave me a good picture, but the mod made a dramatic difference. For some reason the POKEY sound on my particular unit is strangely quiet compared to the TIA sound, but beyond that, the audiovisuals are just perfect thanks to the mod.

 

The Pokey sound problem is, unfortunately, very common on 7800 A/V mods. It's usually caused by using the wrong value resistor in the audio circuit.

 

Mitch

[jaybird3rd]

You're working on some homebrew projects for the 7800? I love to see what you got planned. Given the games GCC made for the 7800, I find it a little odd that they never made Missile Command. I suppose it's a "been there, done that " kind of project.

 

I do think we're going to see more hacks before we see more homebrews simply because the homebrewers are still learning how to program for it.

Well, I'm certainly still learning, but I really like the 7800 architecture (what an interesting machine!) and I can't wait to get started on my first game. Gotta get through this semester of classes first, though!

 

The omission of Missile Command is strange to me for two reasons. You alluded to Super Missile Attack, GCC's modification kit for Missile Command. After they ported Ms. Pac-Man (which also originated at GCC) to their own 7800 system, Missile Command would seem to be the next logical choice. The second reason is that the 7800 was the only Atari system that didn't get some version of Missile Command; I believe every other Atari console or computer had one. In fact, Missile Command was built into the XEGS. Perhaps it would have been seen as old-fashioned by video game buyers in 1986, but I think it would have made a great addition to the system.

 

I've actually given some thought to doing my own treatment of Missile Command, but I realize it would be a tough project because of some of the issues that supercat mentions:

 

Missile Command would be very tough to do without extra memory. Either one would have to be continuously mangling some rather strange display lists to draw missile trails out of various weird pieces, or else one would have to use a bunch of overlapping two-line-high display lists to create a 160x72 half-resolution bitmap. The mapping on this would have to be a little strange because of the way "offset" works. Something like:

 

$2400-$2427 -- Row 0

$2500-$2527 -- Row 1

$2600-$2627 -- Row 2

..

$2F00-$2F27 -- Row 11

$2428-$244F -- Row 12

$2528-$254F -- Row 13

..

$2FC8-$2FEF -- Row 71

 

I think this would require thirteen display lists for every group of 12 double-high pixels, or 78 for the bitmapped part of the screen. Although the display lists in RAM could be reused, the display list list would be over 234 bytes long (too bad it can't be in ROM).

 

Using that sort of bitmap design, a game like Missile Command or QIX might be possible on the 7800, but not nearly as nicely as on the 5200.

The biggest problem would indeed be the lack of available RAM, especially with the bitmap approach that you describe. It wouldn't bother me at all to retrofit a bunch of Jinks carts to get the extra 8K of RAM that they contain, but I'd rather do without it if possible. In terms of the screen layout, I had thought about giving 7800 Missile Command a look much like "Missile Command II" from the 1992 Atari Classics coin-op (with some simplifications, of course):

It looks to me like the missiles can come from anywhere and approach the cities and bases from any angle, which would almost certainly require a bitmap and extra RAM to replicate properly on the 7800. But if I restrict the missiles to a few points of origin at the top of the screen and a limited number of possible angles of approach (probably ranging from 45 degrees to 135 degrees), I'm wondering if it would be possible to divide the missile trails into a series of repeating tiles, which could then be displayed using characters that are stacked and offset horizontally as the missiles travel down the screen. I probably couldn't do a gradated sky as shown in the screenshot, either, but if I do a solid blue sky (maybe with some clouds for variety), I might be able to experiment with using a light gun for input (which is something I've always wanted to try with Missile Command anyway).

 

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I'd love to get some feedback on all of this. If I'm way off-base in my understanding of what is feasible on the 7800, I'd rather find out before I try to code it!

[jaybird3rd]

The Pokey sound problem is, unfortunately, very common on 7800 A/V mods. It's usually caused by using the wrong value resistor in the audio circuit.

 

Mitch

Well, that's good to know ... I thought it was just my bad wiring! I'll have to go through that circuit again to see if I can find the resistor in question.