So what's wrong with Donkey Kong?

[godzillajoe]

Ha. Yeah opinions are like arseholes, everyone's got one!

 

I haven't played either one since the day I was still banging away at a real C= 64 but I think I liked the Ocean one better because it wasn't as squashed looking as the AtariSoft version.

 

I'll have to fire up the emulator later and try them both again.

[Paranoid]

Actually, I believe the version I played was an Amiga port of one of the C=64 versions, and they had gone and 16-bit-ized it in the process... which always seemed to be a bad idea.

 

Gonna have to hunt down the actual C-64 versions now, I suppose.

[jbanes]

Gonna have to hunt down the actual C-64 versions now, I suppose.

Um, or you could just download the files from GameBase64 (linked to in my previous post) and write them to disk. They're also available from the games section on www.c64.com.

[NightSprinter]

Actually, I believe the version I played was an Amiga port of one of the C=64 versions, and they had gone and 16-bit-ized it in the process... which always seemed to be a bad idea.

 

Gonna have to hunt down the actual C-64 versions now, I suppose.

 

Paranoid, you are correct. Bignonia ported one of them, but it was Atarisoft's version. It wasn't really "made 16-bit", it just kept the original 8-bit game (save for changing the color palette slightly), and added a few extra features (like a bonus stage, which I think is the same as in Champ Kong for the PC).

 

Godzillajoe, I do hope you're referring to the Ocean port that was for the PAL C64 and the Amstrad CPC464. I've played the MSX1 and ZX Spectrum ports by Ocean.. utter tragedies, as the gameplay lacked so much (I'm decent at DK, but I can't even get past the first level on those two ports).

[Paranoid]

Jbanes...

 

Gotcha. Thanks.

[Paranoid]

Question...

 

I'm not understanding how to load .d64 files under Vice64x.

 

I'm assuming that a .d64 is a C=64 disk image file... and it looks like Vice64x wants .rom file images? Is this correct? I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here, as I am unfamiliar with both sides of this equation.

 

Any help is appreciated. I checked the FAQs, but I can't seem to find any guidance.

[jbanes]

I'm not understanding how to load .d64 files under Vice64x.

You have to treat it as an actual disk drive. The sequence of events are:

 

1. "Turn on" VICE

2. Attach the disk image to Drive #8

3. Type LOAD"*",8,1

4. Once it's done loading, type the RUN command. (Assuming the disk doesn't have an autorun feature.)

 

Or you could be lazy and choose "File" > "Autostart disk/tape image..." from the menubar.

 

I'm assuming that a .d64 is a C=64 disk image file... and it looks like Vice64x wants .rom file images? Is this correct? I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here, as I am unfamiliar with both sides of this equation.

In a real C64, only ROM cartridges would start on boot. Everything else would have to be manually loaded. VICE emulates this behavior.

[Paranoid]

Heh. Funny thing about this...

 

Seems that with One Button FTP, once you drag and drop the files to transfer, you have to HIT the one button (in this case, "Play", which begins the transfer of the files you have queued).

 

Now, you would have think I would have checked to make sure that the files were actually there before I assumed that it was just that Vice64 could not see them... or that I would have figured out that I had queued the files, but not transfered them... but...

 

Anyhow. Once I hit the play button and let it transfer the files over, everything works peachy-keen. I'm on the fence about these C-64 versions. They're clearly the closest to the arcade in graphics... but I'm not digging them on the XBox controller, despite it being an OK solution on MAME and the 5200 version.

 

Still pretty cool at any rate. I'm just thinking I might enjoy it more using the PC C-64 emulator and the USB Competition Pro joystick. Although, then I lose the uberdork joy of seeing a C-64 BASIC screen on my 42" Gas Plasma.

Edited November 16, 2006 by Paranoid

[jbanes]

Glad you figured out the issue!

 

Anyhow. Once I hit the play button and let it transfer the files over, everything works peachy-keen. I'm on the fence about these C-64 versions. They're clearly the closest to the arcade in graphics... but I'm not digging them on the XBox controller, despite it being an OK solution on MAME and the 5200 version.

It's a lot better with a real C64, where you can plugin a CX-40 joystick. The VICE timing also seems to be off just a little, though I can't put my finger on it. Plus, using a joystick feels more like the arcade than using a gamepad.

[Paranoid]

I can't afford any more real estate for yet another classic machine, and to be honest, any money I'd actually be putting into that would probably go to some of the Atari or other Retro stuff I would still like to add (a 5200 trackball, a redemption adapter, a Colecovision USB Multicart...)

 

So for the foreseeable future, it'll have to be emulation, but, that shouldn't prevent me from enjoying it with a proper joystick.

 

I've got to do some housekeeping on this PC to clear up some space for additional emulators first, though.

[Paranoid]

Been playing it with the USB Competition Pro. Got all the bugs worked out in the Win32 side (don't have X11 installed on my Mac, so it'll take a little more work to get it running there).

 

Anyhow... still to early for me to weigh in, although the graphics are clearly the closest to arcade of any of the platforms mentioned so far. I see why the C=64 was recognized as a "Have" in a group of Have-Nots, in this case.

 

I'm still feeling that I prefer the more frentic pace of the 5200 version, despite its flaws.

 

I am just a big 5200 fanboy (and to a certain extent Atari 8 bit fanboy)... I really prefer games on that platform. Even though things look different, I most often prefer the graphics on these platforms... Frogger and DK are my two ready examples. But it encompasses gameplay, too. The whole package just comes together so well on the 8-bit family, unlike any other classic console or computer. And I *was* a C=64 guy back in the day.

 

It does seem somewhat similar, though... the C-64 vs. Atari 8 bit debate, to the 5200 versus Colecovision debate. They both have their winners and their losers.

[Atariboy2600]

To me the biggiest issue is Mario and his way he is walking in the game plus the sound of the 7800 DK is soo way off from the arcade I beleave they would had done it abit better. Also the missing Pie-Factory leve would not hurt eadre.

[Bakasama]

Here's a quick mock shot of what the level might look like:

 

 

I may have made a few goofs but as far as pixel accuracy I think it's pretty good.

[Paranoid]

So, I'm going to have to call the Nintendo C=64 version of Donkey Kong a valiant effort. Graphically, and game-pattern wise, there is no doubt that it is by far the most faithful port of the game to any of the classic platforms available during what I'll call the "pre-Mame" era, although this might be somewhat misleading. I suppose there may be versions for anything up to the PS-1 that would still technically predate the availability of MAME in any functional form. Anyhow, from the perspective of the look of the game, the level progression, the sound, how things come at you, this is a very faithful translation. Mario looks instantly recognizable as Mario... Donkey Kong and the girl, the fireballs, they all look spot on.

 

It is in actual gameplay that things get a little sketchy. It seems slow. It has the same kind of leisurely feel that holds back the 7800 version. It just seems like it takes a long time to get anywhere, and there isn't a lot coming at you during most of that time. You spend most of the time running toward ladders and climbing them without any actual challenges coming your way. Additionally, getting up the ladders can be too difficult, and jumping onto elevators doesn't seem to have the timing "right". This could just be issues with emulation, and also, I imagine that after putting some time into the game, you would adjust to the timing differences in this version (which is really no different than any other version).

 

The thing is, it isn't as *fun* as the 5200/8 bit version. It just doesn't grap be and make me pay attention and get me involved like the 8 bit version. For all the graphical perfection of this title, it still becomes another example of where "the best graphics" does not always equal the best game.

 

It is good. Real good. And to be fair, I've been pretty consistent in saying I like the 5200 version even better than the arcade original, so my bias is clear.

 

Still, taken in the proper context, available at the time, it certainly would have been one of my favorites if I had it during the period when I owned Commodore 8 bit computers.

 

In that same light, I found myself being somewhat nostalgic in regretting that I never pursued Vic-20 titles after my first two purchases (Crossfire and some text adventure about a Nuclear Reactor, I believe). I tried those titles, hated them, and went, "The Vic-20 SUCKS" and put it away and stuck with my 2600. Obviously, if I had stuck with it, I would have been enjoying a much superior version of Pac Man among other titles far earlier than I did. I just didn't get the right titles on my first couple of purchases, and that is too bad. I missed the boat on that one.

[godzillajoe]

I just got my AtariMax Flash Cart for the 5200 and loaded up DK for it.

 

The 5200 conversion is the best available for the consoles, no doubt about it. I used to think it was the 7800 version but I've changed my mind

 

There are a few issues like DK being on the wrong side on the girders level and the hammers not being in the right place.

 

And the crazy amount of fireballs on the cement factory level but otherwise it's great.

 

Plays much better on a real console than on M.E.S.S.

 

Why do emulators always seem to make games look weird?

 

The screen resolution and keyboard controls probably.

Edited November 18, 2006 by godzillajoe

[+Allan]

To me the biggiest issue is Mario and his way he is walking in the game plus the sound of the 7800 DK is soo way off from the arcade I beleave they would had done it abit better. Also the missing Pie-Factory leve would not hurt eadre.

 

It would be nice to see this game hacked with the 5200 Pokey sounds.

 

If only someone had the source code to 7800 Donkey Kong. They could just rip the sounds from the 5200 version.

 

Allan

[Paranoid]

I just got my AtariMax Flash Cart for the 5200 and loaded up DK for it.

 

The 5200 conversion is the best available for the consoles, no doubt about it. I used to think it was the 7800 version but I've changed my mind

 

There are a few issues like DK being on the wrong side on the girders level and the hammers not being in the right place.

 

And the crazy amount of fireballs on the cement factory level but otherwise it's great.

 

Plays much better on a real console than on M.E.S.S.

 

Why do emulators always seem to make games look weird?

 

The screen resolution and keyboard controls probably.

 

Try KAT 5200 and a USB Competition Pro. It is almost as good as the real thing. Especially on this particular title.

 

The crazy amount and crazy aggressiveness of the fireballs on the pie factory. The trick is that you've got to FORGET everything you think you know about Donkey Kong to be effective at the 5200 version. First, use ANY ladder (do not avoid the ladders you would normally avoid on the arcade version, for example). Second, get to the top as FAST as possible. Do not sit at an edge jumping barrel after barrel waiting for an opening. Jump one barrel, then make a mad dash to climb the nearest ladder and be ready to jump the next barrel coming at you...

 

On the pie factory... wait it out... patience is the key... I often do not make a run for it until the Fireballs have all gone in whatever direction they were headed. They tend to gravitate to one side near the top... the other side will have a single fireball... make a run when they get to this point, and make a mad rush for the top.

[shadow460]

Is there a way to disassemble the .bin file to make source code?

[jbanes]

Is there a way to disassemble the .bin file to make source code?

Sort of. Assembly is more or less a 1 to 1 mapping to machine code. That's why Stella can show you a disassembly in its debugger. However, disassemblers have a hard time distinguishing what is actual code and what is actually data. So the disassembly may include a lot of extra garbage that is supposed to be translated into things like binary codes for sprites and backgrounds. (Modern executable files have separate code and data sections to prevent this very problem.) In addition, all code Macros, labels, variable names, and other assembler niceties were lost when the code was first assembled.

 

When you see disassemblies floating around on AtariAge, what you're seeing is the result of someone who took a great deal of time and energy to reverse engineer the machine code into a readable file. Usually, they painstakingly stepped through the program to figure out what areas of the binary were actually executable, what areas were data, what areas were simply empty, and what addresses were supposed to be labelled for code jumps and branches.

 

If you're worried about the Donkey Kong code for the 7800, then you might try contacting Curt. He came up with the original Centipede code from GCC a short while ago, so he may know how to get the Donkey Kong code. Now if only I could find time to take a peek at the Centipede code.

[Major_Havoc]

On the pie factory... wait it out... patience is the key... I often do not make a run for it until the Fireballs have all gone in whatever direction they were headed. They tend to gravitate to one side near the top... the other side will have a single fireball... make a run when they get to this point, and make a mad rush for the top.

 

See on the pie factory, the true strategy is to stay to the left of the fire barrel until all the fireballs come out. They're supposed to pop out in the screen-half you have mario in... so that way, every single fireball pops out to the left (and hopefully stays on that side).

 

I forget if that's true in the 5200 version as well but if I remember correctly, they just pop out to the left or right randomly ..which is one of the things that is wrong with the game, or makes it more exciting depending on your vantage point

[Paranoid]

My guess is that the 5200 version is random. I'll double check (any excuse to play the game for awhile)... But yeah, this is one of the things I like about DK5200. The whole intensity of the game is actually ramped up a bit, because you don't know what to expect. No patterns, really (although I think it is more likely that there are patterns and they're randomly chosen at the start of a level, rather than being consistent in when they occur).

[Rik]

How does the 7800 Donkey Kong compare with the ColecoVision version?if better, which I have a feeling it is,I will buy a copy for sure,anyone?thank you.

Edited November 23, 2006 by Rik

[Paranoid]

Similar. I would say that the 7800 version has the edge between the two.

[Rik]

Similar. I would say that the 7800 version has the edge between the two.

In what way?

[jbanes]

Similar. I would say that the 7800 version has the edge between the two.

In what way?

Well, for one thing, the Coleco version is bass ackwards.