McDonald's proto sham

[Albert]

The only thing I don't understand is, why Curt doesn't dump the game himself. He can loose absolutely nothing in the current situation.

 

The game has already been dumped. The only reason it hasn't been released is we're working on a nice page with images of the documentation and sketches, along with a historical background of the game's development. Unfortunately noen of us do this full-time (I wish!) so we can't always turn stuff around like this as fast as we'd like. Now, before someone turns around and says, "Just release the binary already!", we want to have a nice writeup about the game that we can point to when we post news about it. It's been nearly 20 years since the game was developed, a few more days won't kill anyone.

 

Given the flak that this thread is raising, we'll try to get this done sooner than later.

 

..Al

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Yes, in fact thats whats being worked on right now, a whole article with copies of the documents online, quotes from the game designer and programmer, photo's of the cart, envelope and any other related materials.   Its nice to see a proto released, but we also want to release all of the info and history behind it as well.

Wow, I hardly can wait to see this!

 

That stuff seems to be very interesting, especially for programmers like me.

 

Many thanks to Curt and AtariAge

 

BTW: Any chances that the original sourcecode exists too?

[lonesome_pa]

So, from what I can understand, if the question of "has the rom already been dumped?" been asked in the beginning, this whole thread could have been avoided????

[Curt Vendel]

Yes, in fact thats whats being worked on right now, a whole article with copies of the documents online, quotes from the game designer and programmer, photo's of the cart, envelope and any other related materials.   Its nice to see a proto released, but we also want to release all of the info and history behind it as well.

Wow, I hardly can wait to see this!

 

That stuff seems to be very interesting, especially for programmers like me.

 

Many thanks to Curt and AtariAge

 

BTW: Any chances that the original sourcecode exists too?

 

I've asked Dave and he is looking, that would be wonderful if he does.

 

 

 

Curt

[Alex]

So, from what I can understand, if the question of "has the rom already been dumped?" been asked in the beginning, this whole thread could have been avoided????

 

Not exactly. The original post was attacking Curt for auctioning the proto and requiring that it be shared. It was not a question of whether it had been dumped. The fact that it has already been dumped doesn't change the stipulations in the auction, it just sounded a little odd.

[lonesome_pa]

Oops, sorry. My apologies. I misunderstood. Just call it a brain-fart.

[Chris++]

Why avoid this whole thread, anyway? I see what you're saying, and I should probably take lessons from Pa, Scott and Thomas on "saying something tactfully," but look at what happened! (Nearly) everyone presented an informed, enthusiastic opinion, stood up for what they believed, and even proved me wrong (if I knew that Curt had already given AA the ROM, I might not have posted at all, like Pa said -- score a point for you, Tempest). If I need to take flak once in a while to see such passionate conversations like this, it's worth it!

 

CF

 

Everyone's favorite target (but I'll kick your butt at Empire Strikes Back)

[Jeffy Arensmeyer]

 

Sorry everyone. This is nothing more than wealthy posturing.

 

Collecting classic games should be every bit as fun as, if not more fun than possessing them. :eek:

 

It's apparent in many of the threads of the AtariAge forums, that money is no object whatsoever for many of the collectors. All they have to do is be alerted to a particular auction and, if it's their forte, they will pay what it takes to get the item.

 

Collecting is about the gathering or bringing together of classic games, both common and rare alike. It's digging through yard sales and going to the Goodwill store and running ads in the paper and so on that makes collecting fun..

 

It does seem that many have lost sight of true collecting, which is as much of getting the game as it is having the game.

 

For example, a rare game comes up on Ebay...

• the item

[*]You place a bid

[*]You wait

[*]If someone gets close, you rebid

[*]You win

[*]You get a game in the mail

• .

 

"Well, I have the feeling of knowing I can play this game whenever I want to because it's mine."

 

Fair enough. Is this the only way you would ever possibly get to play this game? Very unlikely. However, it is yours and you can reach for it whenever you like. Is this worth the price you paid?

 

But what if you have a game that's nothing more than an early prototype that doesn't work? So now, there's no solace in being able to play the game. Ahhh... But it's still yours and you can touch it whenever you like. Kinda like having a volley ball on a desolate tropical island...

 

But there's an entire electronic community to share your wares with. So you post pictures of the items, upload the ROMs to share with everyone, and basically offer as much information as possible about the thing that only you have, without actually giving up "the thing". For me, that does seem a bit like using anyone interested for justifying your paying price.

 

What is the statute of limitations on possession now? At what point in your life do you decide that you no longer need to possess these "things", so you can sell them? When is your tenure of curator suitable enough for you to release the items back into the wild? Or do you pass the items along to your beneficiaries to keep them in the family?

 

Some of this sounds strange, I agree. But these are real questions and facts associated with collecting. Do I "possess" any games and likewise? Of course I do. But for me, it's the getting of the games and consoles that's as much fun as playing them. And no, I don't have answers myself as a collector. I do it, it's fun, I'm not going to stop anytime soon, and I don't know when I'll wake up one day and sell it all.

 

Back to the topic: It's an ultra rare, if not one-of-a-kind protoype. You can get it and no one else will have one like it. Money is absolutely no object in getting it.

 

So what is it ultimately worth to know that you have the only one in the world at home? That's definately a personal call on your part. But if you want to display the item to the public once you have it just to say "I have this", then also be prepared to face questions and comments about not just what you have, but how you got it.

 

But that's just my opinion. What's yours?

 

ò¿ó          

 

[Marco(2)]

I've noticed a recent uprising in players (and programmers) attacking collectors again. Why is it so hard to understand that there's a lot of fun in collecting Atari 2600 games, even if it involves money? Why do you feel the need to proclaim that some part of this hobby is better than others parts? Why can't we just all enjoy different parts of this hobby, without the need of defending yourself against others? This hobby needs players, designers, programmers, collectors, hackers, researchers, you name it, to stay alive and kicking. The only hobbyist we can do without is the whiner...

 

My take on this particular situation:

[*]I bet I can predict nine out of ten people that will bid on this item

[*]I am positive that none of them will be bothered by the release agreement, as they would have released it anyway. And if they are bothered, they just won't bid. I actually know no collector that has to own them all and now.

[*]I am positive that 95% of Atari 2600 prototype owners agree that the value of their protos is in no way related to the availability of the ROM. For every non-available 2600 proto ROM there are twenty or so that are available.

[*]Of course Curt wants to make money here, there is nothing wrong with that. You Americans should understand the capitalist way. Considering the prices of prototypes his buy-it-now price isn't irrealistic or insane at all, even for an implayable game.

[*]The only thing that bothers me is that it has to be Atarimuseum or Atariage. Not that I don't like these sites (I love 'em, you know that guys!), it is just that as the new owner I would want to pick place and time for release. Personally, I would pick these sites, like I've done before, but it would be my pick.

I think it is noteworthy that it's always people who do not buy nor wish to buy prototypes that are complaining about this kind of situations "that are ruining this hobby". I buy prototypes myself, I know many other collectors who do, and most of them are very active in this hobby, organising events, creating new games, releasing old games, maintaining very cool websites. I hurts me to hear people say we are destroying the hobby...

 

One final comment I would want to make is about prices. There are still people complaining about "the direction this hobby is going", mostly referring to the "outrageous" prices being paid for 2600 carts. I did not build a database to prove it, but I'm convinced that most items actually have become much cheaper than in the first half of the nineties. Rare titles like Crazy Climber, Waterworld, Chase the Chuck Wagon, Music Machine are available on a regular basis at ever lower prices. Only a handful of top items still raises money. Heck, (un)common carts can be had cheaper through the net than on fleamarkets these days.

 

And with that I've offered you my 2 cents, which I cannot spend on that nice proto now...

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[Curt Vendel]

Hi Marco..... thanks for the input.... so you're saying that at the end of the auction the winner should be the one to release the image? Maybe he/she could work out a date with AA to release the rom image perhaps, something within a reasonable time-frame, but knowing that it WILL be release irregardless. Maybe that is the happy median for all

 

 

 

Curt

 

b

[Chris++]

Jeff -- you and I think alike. Your remarks were extremely articulate. I enjoyed reading them immensely -- even the bits we differ on. I guess it comes down to how each individual perceives his possessions. Like I said before, beware status symbols, and finding happiness in plastic stuff. Neither one has anything to do with inner happiness, which, by contrast, CAN be achieved via playing the actual games (if you love playing video games enough!).

 

Lest I be further misunderstood: I HAVE NEVER ATTACKED COLLECTORS. You like collecting? Great! Terrific! You've picked a great sort of thing to collect! We're friends! Everyone's happy! Yayyyy! But you can still use your heads.

 

-- Chris Smurf

[Marco(2)]

Hi Marco..... thanks for the input....   so you're saying that at the end of the auction the winner should be the one to release the image?   Maybe he/she could work out a date with AA to release the rom image perhaps, something within a reasonable time-frame, but knowing that it WILL be release irregardless.    Maybe that is the happy median for

 

Curt,

 

Sounds good, but I don't think any of the bidders will have a real problem with the current agreement. I'm sure you can work something out with the winning bidder that's good for all of us.

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[Marco(2)]

Like I said before, beware status symbols, and finding happiness in plastic stuff. Neither one has anything to do with inner happiness, which, by contrast, CAN be achieved via playing the actual games (if you love playing video games enough!).

 

Lest I be further misunderstood: I HAVE NEVER ATTACKED COLLECTORS. You like collecting? Great! Terrific! You've picked a great sort of thing to collect! We're friends! Everyone's happy! Yayyyy! But you can still use your heads.

 

I'm probably too sensitive, but this is not the first time I've seen you post about the sillyness of people spending more money on this hobby than you think is healthy. Cynical replies like the above to serious posts aren't very helpful, I think.

 

Here again, you explicitly state that playing is better or "richer" than collecting (almost in a Boeddhist kind of way). And then, why the urge to warn (a handful of) people for spending money on something they think is worth it? The majority of them have been in this hobby as long as you have. They probably know what they are doing, don't you think?

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[Curt Vendel]

I'm trying to meet a good balance here for all (yes, including myself - Capatilist pig that I am! Like I said, noone, noone has emailed me that wants to bid or has bid and is complaining about the arrangement and I think anyone who is bidding, just like you said, is a seasoned collector who is cool with the arrangment anyway and would release the rom too, so I think everyone should be and will be happy in the end.

 

 

 

Curt

[Marco(2)]

 Collecting is about the gathering or bringing together of classic games, both common and rare alike.  It's digging through yard sales and going to the Goodwill store and running ads in the paper and so on that makes collecting fun..

 

It does seem that many have lost sight of true collecting, which is as much of getting the game as it is having the game.

 

Very nicely put indeed, but I'm not sure I can agree.

 

As a European collector, there are many things I will never be able to find in the wild. When I started collecting, I could find all kinds of stuff to put in my collection.

 

Later on, I started to fill my tradebox with stuff I already had myself, using the internet to find people to trade with. Getting a game through a trade was pretty much as much fun as finding one in the wild. You had to find the person that had something on his tradelist that you needed and something on his wantlist that you had. The quest was still on!

 

But trading got harder and harder as my collection grew, the fleamarkets here started to dry up, and a (non-understandable) trend among US collectors to no longer be interested in PAL stuff entered the scene. But I found ways around that: I started to buy stuff through Ebay.

 

The cycle repeated itself. At first, I started to buy stuff for my collection. And as my pockets aren't infinitely deep, there was excitement in that as well. Would I win this auction for that amount? Later on, I also started to buy some stuff that would end up on my tradelist. Or that went directly to collector friends of mine, whom I could offer stuff that they wanted for an item I wanted from them.

 

The excitement of gathering games now is the process of sometimes many, many steps before I get something that I can put in my collection. It goes soemthing like buy - sell - buy - trade - sell - buy - trade - trade and then I finally get a gem I still wanted. This takes time, patience and lots fo contacts in the community. And I enjoy it alot!

 

As for finding stuff in the wild. Those days certainly aren't over. It's gotten a lot more difficult though. And certain things, you just won't find in the wild, especially not here.

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[Chris++]

"Buddhist"? Or however you spelled it? Hmmm...never thought of beating a game as a Zen experience.

 

I re-state that I've never attacked collectors. I think spending hundreds of dollars on a piece of plastic is silly. That's my mindset. Does yours differ? Good! I've never learned anything from a guy I totally agreed with. I didn't consider it my place to "warn" everyone, so much as I wanted to spur an enthusiastic discussion.

 

Different opinions are good. What I think is silly, you might think is really serious. If that's your outlook, go to it, and best of luck. It's not that I don't understand your words, Marco. I think old cartridges are overpriced. As far as "ruining the hobby" -- I've never been that general. Nobody's going to ruin the hobby for THIS old Atari kid!

 

CF

[Marco(2)]

I'm trying to meet a good balance here for all (yes, including myself - Capatilist pig that I am

 

Everybody knows what you are putting into this hobby. People like yourself, the Al's from AtariAge, and the people from CGE spend lots of time and money on this hobby. I see no problem at all with you guys trying to recoup some of that if that means you can keep up the good work

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[Marco(2)]

"Buddhist"? Or however you spelled it? Hmmm...never thought of beating a game as a Zen experience.  

 

Sorry, English is not my native tongue.

 

I re-state that I've never attacked collectors. I think spending hundreds of dollars on a piece of plastic is silly. That's my mindset. Does yours differ? Good! I've never learned anything from a guy I totally agreed with. I didn't consider it my place to "warn" everyone, so much as I wanted to spur an enthusiastic discussion.

 

Nothing wrong with that, though you're always gonna hurt lighthearted people like me, I guess. Ah well...

 

Different opinions are good. What I think is silly, you might think is really serious. If that's your outlook, go to it, and best of luck. It's not that I don't understand your words, Marco. I think old cartridges are overpriced.

 

Most of the stuff in my collection is still cheaper than it originally sold for. I think that's a nice feature for a collectible. Nothing like paintings, stamps, porcelain or silverware - and you can't even play those!

 

As far as "ruining the hobby" -- I've never been that general. Nobody's going to ruin the hobby for THIS old Atari kid!

 

When reading your posts I got the idea you were very unhappy with the state of the hobby. Glad to hear it's not that bad.

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[Chris++]

No, it's not that bad. If I didn't still love the community in general, I wouldn't be posting here at all. (I can hear Tempest: "No big loss...") But if I hurt your feelings, Marco -- or anyone's -- I'm sorry. You're a lot more interesting than if you collected Barbie dolls or something.

 

Me again

 

P.S. You know what's coming, right, guys? A post from a member named Barbies'n'Atari, that reads along the lines of, "I'm about to lose it, here! What's wrong with Barbies, mister high-and-mighty? Huh??"

 

 

 

 

.

[Barbies'n'Atari]

 

Well...

 

I was about to say...

 

[ubersaurus]

An opinion is not a "flame," Tempest. Here's my general statement: The seller KNOWS THAT THE VALUE WILL DROP IF THE ROM IS NOT GIVEN AWAY FOR FREE FIRST. Otherwise, the image would already be up there! Use your heads, guys. If you don't disagree with things like this, future protos -- ones you might WANT, and playable ones at that -- might suffer worse fates.

 

CF

I just want to address this with a cue from the NES collecting group...

The prototype of the English version of "Earthbound" had been actioned of on ebay a few years back, fetched a high price. The emulation fans asked for it to be dumped, the guy would only do so if he was paid for it. Well, the community raised the money, it got dumped, and the guy promptly sold it off on ebay for more money then it fetched originally.

 

The moral of the story? The corralation between the game getting dumped and value decreasing just doesn't seem to be there.

[Tempest]

I can hear Tempest: "No big loss..."

 

Now now now... Don't be like that. There are two things that get me riled up in this hobby; Someone attacking my friends, and somone attacking prototype collecting/rom distribution. Unfortunatly you touched on both of them. You can feel free to post whatever you want but know that if you go after one of my friends I'll come after you. Just the way I am.

 

Tempest

[Chris++]

I KNEW IT! See? See? (Nice Barbie avatar.... )

 

Tempest: I'm not psychic. Someone doesn't "go after one of your friends" if he doesn't know that he's your friend. I'm just a bunch of text to you, and vice-versa. There's no word I can type from this computer that will hurt you or Curt. Please realize that regarding "no big loss" etc. etc., I say a lot of things in jest, because it's fun. This thread was fun while it was heated. Don'tcha think? C'mon -- just a little bit?

 

CF

[+-^CrossBow^-]

These forums do not exist for the pleasure of heated discussions. These forums have been and always shall be a friendly enviroment were we all feel free to post what we want. The hard truth is that we also must be prepped for the outcomes that may come forth.

 

My whole take on this fiasco...and yes...that is the correct term to use here, is this:

 

The auction states the requirements...therefore it was said once again and will be said before. If the bidders had a problem with it...they didn't and don't have to bid.

 

The rom has already been dumped and is in the hands of this site already. Obviously this was done prior to the auction even goin active. That said...Curt was..and still is the rightful owner of this Prototype until the auction ends. If Curt wants to release the rom image...that is his right as the current owner to do so.

 

My only suggestion at all...is that Curt probably should have listed in the auction that the rom was already dumped and set for a release soon and that the winning bidder would have to be okay with this.

 

All of this would have been avoided...if the rom had shown up first..and then the auction. Because then, nobody would have said anything either way. Also, it is my belief that had it gone down this way....possible the Proto would fetch more as it would be the "Proof" that the released rom image...was not a fake or quickly done gamefield experiment.

[Pitfall Harry]

I say a lot of things in jest, because it's fun.

 

The better part of wisdom is knowing when not to say something for the sake of fun.

 

Ben