Whatever became of Turbo-816?

[joeventura]

Few years a go in an ATARI party in Poland i met Michal Pasiecznik who showed me an upgraded 130xe with:

2meg simm upgrade, SpartaDos X Built in, IDE interface and a TURBO-816 PCB

 

 

In the ZIP file below you will find all the information i have on the TURBO 816 upgrade

 

 

Turbo_816.zip

 

Ndary

 

Wow that is an impressive amount of hardware under that hood!!

[peteym5]

Yes it is. I would like to know where to get something like that myself.

 

Wonder how many would do a 65816 upgrade and a VideoBoard XE onto the Atari Hardware.

 

A good system would have a 16bit cpu, max out to 16 megs of ram, and use the Videoboard XE. I know we discussed using FPGA chip to emulated extended chipset. Is someone honestly going to this for us right now. Atleast someone has done work with 65816 cpu, making a new sprite layer, and duel Pokey chips. I think you can make some awesome arcade or Sega Genesis like games if you have all 3. I am not going to come out and say you can do 3D First Person Shooters or a Real Time Strategy games like Doom or Ages of Empires. Those games probably require 500mhz and VGA graphics. You will still be limited to the style of games that were around before the mid 1990s.

Edited October 5, 2007 by peteym5

[DamageX]

DOOM and Warcraft 2 were half decent on my old TI 486-16. And there is a port of Wolf3D for the Apple IIGS although I've never seen it in action since I don't have an accelerated IIGS.

[JamesD]

Just visited the Wester Design Center page and they now list 200MHz rather than 400MHz and it's for 65c02S parts... the 65c816S is listed at 100MHz.

 

I was sure they had 400MHz listed just a few weeks back but I could be wrong. Then again at one time they mentioned another upgrade to that CPU line and all mention of it disappeared one day right before it was supposed to become available. I don't know if it was canceled, someone bought an exclusive license, it wasn't ready or what happened.

[rdhays82604]

Just visited the Wester Design Center page and they now list 200MHz rather than 400MHz and it's for 65c02S parts... the 65c816S is listed at 100MHz.

 

I was sure they had 400MHz listed just a few weeks back but I could be wrong. Then again at one time they mentioned another upgrade to that CPU line and all mention of it disappeared one day right before it was supposed to become available. I don't know if it was canceled, someone bought an exclusive license, it wasn't ready or what happened.

 

 

Those speeds are in the ASIC and FPGA forms only. The chip forms are at still at 14 MHZ.

[peteym5]

100mhz, 200mhz, and 400mhz 16bit cpu for the Atari 8bit or a Atari 8-bit compatible computer! Would be cool to see that happen. Are there any 6502 or 65816 compatible floating point math co-processors? I would certainly consider video chip upgrades along with that. Certain need something that can run at those speeds. Migrating the Antic/GTIA with extended abilities would be a good ideal, would not want to still stuck with 40 column screens or 160x192 bitmap displays. Would not have a problem doing higher resolutions/more color depth. Even at 14 or 16mhz could help drive 80 column displays or animation on 256 color bitmapped screens at 320x200. At 100mhz or more, your Atari is approaching the capabilities of a '486, Early Pentium or Athlon chips.

 

If we can't get a simulated Antic/GTIA chip and have to downstep to 1.79mhz, there is still VideoBoard XE. Something that someone is developing. Other options is multiple Antic/GTIAs overlapping the same screen or add an entirly different graphic chipset that can the computer can switch to. Would not be so much of a problem in a much faster system.

 

One question I have, The screen memory, display list, and PMbase memory areas that these chips are now pointing at. Does the RAM itself need to be running at 1.79mhz or can we ramp it to 100mhz or more. (The chips themselves will still be at 1.79mhz). This will allow us fast writes to the screen area.

 

On the subject of sound Duel-, or Quad- Pokey, would be a good direction to go. Can we add capabilities to the Pokey chip as well like wave forms. I had an ideal of an addition sound chip that can do different type waveforms and sound effects (like SID or Nintendos sound chip). However the PCM wavechannel would also make a nice addition, maybe have 4 or 8 of those.

 

Auxiliry Storage: I think we can easily incorporate EIDE technology hard drive store, along with a 3.5 floppy. Any thoughts on CD and DVD drives?

 

If someone is bold enougth to upgrade or build such systems now has something to think about.

Edited October 6, 2007 by peteym5

[peteym5]

I have done some research on the 6502 and WDC 65816 and came across a comparison chart of the 6502/65816 vs 68000 and x86. The claim is that the 6502/65816 could do branches, moves to/from registers, and comparisons in less clock cycles than the 68000 and x86. This is why the 6502 was used for the early Apple II, Commodore, Atari, and Nintendo systems. I am sure this probably does apply to x86 prior to the 80486 (486), later x86 compatible processors did multiple instructions within a clock cycle. I did state putting these processors in the Atari would bring it the processing capability of a 80286, first Macs, Atari STs, and Amigas'. Depends on the speed you decide to run it at.

 

That is CPU processing power. To get better graphics & sound you will have to looking into making custom ICs that are backward compatible with the Atari 8-bit chip set. That is basically so you can run your old atari programs with the ability to run some new stuff. Duel Pokeys, Video Board XE, and duel Antic/GTIA, are also still feasible options.

[DamageX]

The claim is that the 6502/65816 could do branches, moves to/from registers, and comparisons in less clock cycles than the 68000 and x86. This is why the 6502 was used for the early Apple II, Commodore, Atari, and Nintendo systems.

It's true that 65xx instruction cycle counts are mostly kept to a minimum, but I don't think that's why it was used. The reason was COST. Motorola sold their 6800 at a much higher price, seeing it as a competitor to the "mini" computers of the day. The introduction of the 6502 opened up a new market by virtue of its price, giving the Apple guys something to work with. Commodore later bought MOS, so using the 65xx (which they manufactured) was again a cost advantage.

 

Chuck Peddle explained a lot of this history during VCF East. Apparently the video is on Youtube...

http://www.amiga.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7473

[mos6507]

The claim is that the 6502/65816 could do branches, moves to/from registers, and comparisons in less clock cycles than the 68000 and x86. This is why the 6502 was used for the early Apple II, Commodore, Atari, and Nintendo systems.

It's true that 65xx instruction cycle counts are mostly kept to a minimum, but I don't think that's why it was used. The reason was COST. Motorola sold their 6800 at a much higher price, seeing it as a competitor to the "mini" computers of the day. The introduction of the 6502 opened up a new market by virtue of its price, giving the Apple guys something to work with. Commodore later bought MOS, so using the 65xx (which they manufactured) was again a cost advantage.

 

Chuck Peddle explained a lot of this history during VCF East. Apparently the video is on Youtube...

http://www.amiga.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7473

 

 

The chip itself was cheap but it was also ideal for simpler realtime applications (like game machines). I know on the 2600, that design was only feasible with the 6507. They ran the numbers on using a 6800 or Z80 and it wasn't going to be feasible. That's why the Astrocade required a much more baroque design (based around the Z80) at a much higher pricepoint.

[peteym5]

Yes the 6502 was cheap and is another reason why it was commonly used on early home computers and game systems. One issue with the Z80 is that it took almost twice the clock cycles to do the same job as the 6502. The Z80 had more opcodes and in some computer systems, a Z80 accompanied a 6502 for co-processing (Commodore 128). Intel did not start reducing the clock cycles of the instruction set until the 80486 and Pentium and have to consider your modern PCs also have a floating point component within the CPU.

[+warerat]

I have done some research on the 6502 and WDC 65816 and came across a comparison chart of the 6502/65816 vs 68000 and x86.

 

I'd like to see this chart.

 

Thanks for schooling me on vintage CPUs and contemporary microprocessor design. Your posts have given me so many great ideas we can make work if you help me:

 

- Wire a 68881 to a 6502 so we can do FP in hardware. With any luck, we can take all the 8-bits in the world and maybe make 500th place on the Top500 supercomputing site.

- Take a pair of GTIAs and interface them with a 68000 so I can write to them simultaneously with a single 16-bit cycle. Think how fast those PM graphics would be if I ground DTACK on the 68000 and don't have an 8-bit datapath to memory like the 65816 that requires two cycles for 16-bit data!

- Take the PPU out of the NES and create a custom bus arbiter so ANTIC can DMA data to the PPU's memory. Think of all the extra colors and sprites.

- While we're at it, why not dump the 6502, and stick a NES 2A03 in it's place? It's a 6502 with a sound chip built in. Compatibility and extra sound capability is possible then.

- Get a Virtex5 FPGA and interface a PCI-Express slot through the PBI so we can run nVidia/ATI graphics to a DVI screen. Imagine typing GRAPHICS 1024 from BASIC and using PLOT/DRAWTO to make pictures at 1920x1200 with 16.7 million colors.

- Just invert PHI2 and run another 6502, ANTIC, and GTIA in tandem for dual 1.79MHz CPUs with a secondary screen.

[peteym5]

I think the goal on here is an Atari 8-bit compatible computer with more power. With GTIA, you probably need to pair them with Antic chips, each GTIA needs one Antic chip, that is what a few have concluded on here. The PMbase register is on the Antic chip, DMA for Player/Missile graphics is on the Antic. When someone made a Duel Antic/GTIA design, the 2nd set needed on its own bus to keep everything in sync. This could be done with a 16bit cpu. Antic needed to be at $D400, maybe we can have the 2nd Antic/GTIA with its own video memory.

 

You are not the first person to mention the ideal of using a Nintendo CPU for sound. I had an ideal with Duel Pokeys with a 3rd Alternate sound chip and my friend suggested the sound chip out of the Nintendo NES. Maybe we can have an independent memory board with this CPU, Antic, GTIA, and duel Pokey. The main CPU/RAM would have its own set of Atari ICs. Both displayed to the same screen. We can have the main system write to the other memory area with Bank Switching via Pokey/PIA chip. Would have to work out how the 2nd CPU activates and executes its instructions. Maybe give it its own VBI that it just returns until we change it. Yes, I am thinking about Duel CPUs NES 2A03 and a 65c816s (or just the 6502c). Can build it as an expansion board into an existing 8-bit.

Edited October 9, 2007 by peteym5

[+warerat]

I think the goal on here is an Atari 8-bit compatible computer with more power. With GTIA, you probably need to pair them with Antic chips, each GTIA needs one Antic chip, that is what a few have concluded on here. The PMbase register is on the Antic chip, DMA for Player/Missile graphics is on the Antic. When someone made a Duel Antic/GTIA design, the 2nd set needed on its own bus to keep everything in sync. This could be done with a 16bit cpu. Antic needed to be at $D400, maybe we can have the 2nd Antic/GTIA with its own video memory.

 

You are not the first person to mention the ideal of using a Nintendo CPU for sound. I had an ideal with Duel Pokeys with a 3rd Alternate sound chip and my friend suggested the sound chip out of the Nintendo NES. Maybe we can have an independent memory board with this CPU, Antic, GTIA, and duel Pokey. The main CPU/RAM would have its own set of Atari ICs. Both displayed to the same screen. We can have the main system write to the other memory area with Bank Switching via Pokey/PIA chip. Would have to work out how the 2nd CPU activates and executes its instructions. Maybe give it its own VBI that it just returns until we change it. Yes, I am thinking about Duel CPUs NES 2A03 and a 65c816s (or just the 6502c). Can build it as an expansion board into an existing 8-bit.

 

Dude!! Are you for real? I was being completely sarcastic and unrealistic, or did you miss that?

 

To keep things interesting, I went ahead and put your posts through a Markov generator. Here's what came out, it's both comical and frightening:

 

I had more power. With GTIA, and duel Pokey. The main CPU/RAM would have a Duel CPUs NES 2A03 and Pentium and executes its own set needed on the instruction set of the ideal with the first person to be at $D400, maybe we change it. Yes, I had an Atari 8-bit compatible computer systems, a 6502 for sound. I think the same screen. We can have to consider your modern PCs also have its own VBI that it its own VBI that it as an Atari ICs. Both displayed to keep everything in some computer systems, a 65c816s (or just the Antic chip, that it its instructions. Maybe we can have concluded on the first person to keep everything in sync. This could be done with its own video memory. You are not start reducing the goal on here is an ideal with its own set of Atari 8-bit compatible computer systems, a Z80 had more power. With GTIA, you probably need to the goal on early home computers and game systems. One issue with a 6502 for co-processing (Commodore 128). Intel did not start reducing the 2nd Antic/GTIA design, the Antic. When someone made a Nintendo CPU for Player/Missile graphics is an independent memory area with a floating point component within the same job as the first person to pair them with the instruction set until the 80486 and a 6502 for Player/Missile graphics is on here is an existing 8-bit. Yes the first person to the clock cycles of the 2nd Antic/GTIA design, the 2nd set until we can have to keep everything in sync. This could be at $D400, maybe we can have its own bus to mention the 6502. The main system write to pair them with Bank Switching via Pokey/PIA chip. Would have the main system write to work out how the 2nd Antic/GTIA design, the clock cycles of the 2nd set until the 80486 and duel Pokey. The PMbase register is that it as an Atari 8-bit compatible computer with a Nintendo NES. Maybe give it was commonly used on the 2nd CPU.

[peteym5]

I kinda suspected you were joking and I try to keep things realistic with the ICs and period technology at hand. One question is, would someone be able to build a 400mhz Atari compatible computer with 16megs of ram and still make use the existing Atari Audio/Video ICs?

 

Something I thought about was creating an Antic/GTIA video card for an Vintage IBM PC to output to your TV. Maybe on an ISA card. Would have to build it run at 1.79mhz and have its own 64k of ram. Not sure the VBIs and DLIs can invoke an interrupt on an 8088.

Edited October 9, 2007 by peteym5

[mos6507]

I kinda suspected you were joking and I try to keep things realistic with the ICs and period technology at hand. One question is, would someone be able to build a 400mhz Atari compatible computer with 16megs of ram and still make use the existing Atari Audio/Video ICs?

 

Something I thought about was creating an Antic/GTIA video card for an Vintage IBM PC to output to your TV. Maybe on an ISA card. Would have to build it run at 1.79mhz and have its own 64k of ram. Not sure the VBIs and DLIs can invoke an interrupt on an 8088.

 

At that speed you could probably emulate its older self in software, kind of like DOSBOX on a modern PC.

[peteym5]

At that speed you could probably emulate its older self in software, kind of like DOSBOX on a modern PC.

 

That is another option also and did give it some thought. Give it something like VGA graphics and make it possible to emulate other 6502 based systems like the Apple IIe, C64, and Nintendo NES. That is another solution and get around the problem of running high speed and slowing down for the original ICs. The other solution was to make new ICs capable of running at 200 or 400mhz and expanding the abilities for higher resolution on the video chips.

[+David_P]

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd add this here.

 

Does anyone else have one of the Fine Tooned Engineering "Sweet 16" boards? I picked one up at the Toronto AtariFest in '94 or '95 (along with SDX) and have had it chugging away in an 800xl ever since. Never did too much with it, as the promised documentation never followed - all I got was a copy of MAE and a promise of "docs real soon".

 

I'll dig it out and post some photos; it's a small circuit board (with VERY fragile gold pins) with the 65816 on one side, and another logic part on the reverse that was supposed to permit you to multiplex the data lines and use them for expanded memory. (to let it fit in on the 800xl motherboard you had to cut out the cross-piece in the socket).

 

I experimented a bit with 65816 programming, (largely from what I read in Atari Classics), but never got too heavily into it. Can anyone point me at some good resources? I'm in the midst of re-establishing my 8-bit setups, and think I'll be going down this road soon...

[+bob1200xl]

I have a couple of Mike's Sweet Sixteens, but I am not aware of any documentation for it. It has no provision for linear memory expansion on-board but it could be added. Would it be worth the effort? There were a bunch of books - don't know if any are available. I think the documentation from WDC is pretty good, actually. You can get it from WDC at westerndesigncenter.com.

 

Bob

 

 

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd add this here.

 

Does anyone else have one of the Fine Tooned Engineering "Sweet 16" boards? I picked one up at the Toronto AtariFest in '94 or '95 (along with SDX) and have had it chugging away in an 800xl ever since. Never did too much with it, as the promised documentation never followed - all I got was a copy of MAE and a promise of "docs real soon".

 

I'll dig it out and post some photos; it's a small circuit board (with VERY fragile gold pins) with the 65816 on one side, and another logic part on the reverse that was supposed to permit you to multiplex the data lines and use them for expanded memory. (to let it fit in on the 800xl motherboard you had to cut out the cross-piece in the socket).

 

I experimented a bit with 65816 programming, (largely from what I read in Atari Classics), but never got too heavily into it. Can anyone point me at some good resources? I'm in the midst of re-establishing my 8-bit setups, and think I'll be going down this road soon...

[+David_P]

Oddly enough, about a decade ago I sold a few of my old 6502 programming manuals to WDC... now I'm downloading their PDFs.

 

Photos to follow once I identify which of my 800xls has the Sweet 16 installed...

[peteym5]

I always say that a 65816 Atari would attract more attention if a few applications were specifically designed for it. If there are very few programs available for it, most people would not bother to upgrade their system. The other issue is that developers would not bother with a 16bit version of their program because there is so little of a market for it. A few are worried that a 16bit would cause compatibility problems running older software and from what I can see, less than 1% applications use those illegal 6502 opcodes, mostly games. However it may be possible to hack a few of them and make them still run.

 

I can see the potential of making faster and more elaborate games with a 16bit processor. Think many build them to run at 8 times the mother board clock with a divider to when it accesses the hardware area.

 

I am not sure that sweet16 would make anything go faster or better. From what I understand, its a 16bit emulation on a 6502. The 65816 would do 16bit add and subtract directly, and do multiplies, divides, and exponents with less processor usage. I would be more interested in a 16bit integer math package.

Edited March 11, 2008 by peteym5

[Defender II]

Interesting thread, nice read, can't wait for your pictures!

[+David_P]

And the promised pictures of the FTE Sweet 16 upgrade. Top shot is as installed in my 800xl (in the top of the photo are from PIA to expanded RAM). Bottom shows the other IC mounted on the bottom.

[AtariGeezer]

And one has just appeared...

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 171148699814

[Caterpiggle]

Hello AtariGeezer,

 

So this ebay number , this hardware connect to PBI port on 600XL and 800XL only ?

[AtariGeezer]

Hello AtariGeezer,

 

So this ebay number , this hardware connect to PBI port on 600XL and 800XL only ?

Have no Idea, just saw the listing and thought I'd share...