(re)build a *NEW* Atari Computer?

[+warerat]

Don't even know where to begin on this.

 

Never mind, I'm off to chip-copy my 6502 to EEPROM, lay a 65816 on top of it, and clock it at 3.58MHz.

[mos6507]

Not in the least. Its more like "We all know how Nolan likes to portray his importance and involvement". I'm more inclined to put things in proper perspective and cut through the PR through research rather than take face value. Its like going back to Nolan's constant PR that he "designed" PONG. He certainly had a contribution to PONG and was integral in creating the project. But the idea was taken from Ralph (so he can't claim that), and the actual design was done by Al (which means he can't claim that either).

 

Ralph just stole his idea from Ping Pong, though. So he shouldn't get credit either 'Credit' is a continuum of cause and effect and where the buck stops for you may be different for other people.

[Fletch]

I would certainly be interested in buying a product like this, but sadly I don't think there is a large enough mass appeal. I think the FB3 is our best hope for a new A-8.

 

Honestly, preserving our old hardware and emulation is the future of this platform.

 

Fletch

[Retro Rogue]

wgungfu - Since it sounds like you are, or know the original designers, so whats stopping you guys from taking some of the already produced prototypes and contacting the original Manufacturers of the pieces and doing this thing? We already have the fan base here that would seriously consider purchasing such an item.

 

No, I don't have serious experience in doing this exact thing, but I do have a manufacturing background, and I have founded two companies, been part of several startups, etc. so I have a good understaing of the business side of things, just not detailed knowledge of the Atari chips themselves.

 

Do you or Curt have knowledge of who made the original Atari cases, who made the chips, who made the screws for the cases? It was *NOT* all Atari-made, was it?

 

 

You don't have any appreciation of the timescales here. Doing this would be equivalent of that guy who is trying to manufacture Deloreans again. There is no way to do it without largely starting from scratch. Modern fabrication techniques have changed radically since the 80s. There really is no reason to build computers the way they used to be built anymore. You reduce everything down to one system-on-chip like the C=64 stick and use as many off-the-shelf commodity parts as possible.

 

Reponding to tcopper through Glenn's post because he further elaborated what I was saying (quite nicely in fact):

 

Yes, Curt (and other people) have all the info on where different parts and chips, etc. were manufactured by/for Atari. But that has little bearing on any of this as Glenn pointed out. You're honestly thinking of contacting a former Atari manufacturing plant or chip manufacturing partner, who may or may not still be around, to use layouts done 25 years ago and do a fabrication process done 20+ years ago? A 200 person purchase base (at best), is nowhere near enough to justify those costs. If you were involved in "manufacturing" and "startups", what was it? Dongles? Paperclips? Because it certainly wasn't anything tech.

[tcropper]

mos6507 - While you are correct, I think the idea of doing it using the same mfr's etc as in the early 80's would "preserve" as much of the look and feel of this new system as possible. Sure there are better, faster ways, but this is the simple way. A large part of what I had in mind was to also preserve the look and feel of the original Ataris. That means using as close to the same products from the same vendors as possible. This strategy has also been used when the Government wants to repair that 1965 airplane, and needs parts. They do the same thing, and go back to the original contractors and say "build this widget", and "how much".

 

Does Curt or anyone have the original vendor lists from Atari that lists where the products that went into the Atari were purchased? That's the main ingredient here is to go and say "can you build one of these" and "how much".

Once we have that, then we just have to put together the pieces. After that comes the upgrades that we might want to implement.

[potatohead]

mos6507 - While you are correct, I think the idea of doing it using the same mfr's etc as in the early 80's would "preserve" as much of the look and feel of this new system as possible. Sure there are better, faster ways, but this is the simple way. A large part of what I had in mind was to also preserve the look and feel of the original Ataris. That means using as close to the same products from the same vendors as possible. This strategy has also been used when the Government wants to repair that 1965 airplane, and needs parts. They do the same thing, and go back to the original contractors and say "build this widget", and "how much".

 

Does Curt or anyone have the original vendor lists from Atari that lists where the products that went into the Atari were purchased? That's the main ingredient here is to go and say "can you build one of these" and "how much".

Once we have that, then we just have to put together the pieces. After that comes the upgrades that we might want to implement.

 

IMHO, getting electronics done first is really the big hurdle.

 

I would be surprised if any fabs could be done today, after so long, without big dollars attached.

 

Thing is, old enclosures can be restored, repurposed, etc...

 

So, do that and see what demand is. From there, getting new enclosures made is likely an easier proposition than doing the reverse, or both at the same time.

 

I wouldn't buy a reproduction Atari, unless it was cheap. I would totally buy electronics, particularly if they did something new that was in line with the overall feel of the platform. I've an old 800 that could use just such a retrofit. I'm sure others are in similar situations.

Edited October 17, 2007 by potatohead

[tcropper]

[Reponding to tcopper through Glenn's post because he further elaborated what I was saying (quite nicely in fact):

 

Yes, Curt (and other people) have all the info on where different parts and chips, etc. were manufactured by/for Atari. But that has little bearing on any of this as Glenn pointed out. You're honestly thinking of contacting a former Atari manufacturing plant or chip manufacturing partner, who may or may not still be around, to use layouts done 25 years ago and do a fabrication process done 20+ years ago? A 200 person purchase base (at best), is nowhere near enough to justify those costs. If you were involved in "manufacturing" and "startups", what was it? Dongles? Paperclips? Because it certainly wasn't anything tech.

 

 

That's what I need is that list of vendors. Regardless of what you folks think, I will try and see what I find out and post it here.

Is that list something that can be emailed or do I need to pay for the paper copies?

[Retro Rogue]

Ralph just stole his idea from Ping Pong, though. So he shouldn't get credit either 'Credit' is a continuum of cause and effect and where the buck stops for you may be different for other people.

 

Ehh, that's way to broad a brush stroke and a purposeful blurring of the actual subject on your part Glenn, to try and reach for a point. There's a difference between saying "I'm going to take this recreational sport and try it in a new technological medium (television), creating a new technology format in the process" vs. stealing someone's actual implementation of that (and self admittedly doing so according to his court testimony). By your broad stroke, Goodyear "stole" the idea for a vulcanized tire from whoever invented the wheel. And that makes little sense.

Edited October 17, 2007 by wgungfu

[mos6507]

mos6507 - While you are correct, I think the idea of doing it using the same mfr's etc as in the early 80's would "preserve" as much of the look and feel of this new system as possible. Sure there are better, faster ways, but this is the simple way. A large part of what I had in mind was to also preserve the look and feel of the original Ataris. That means using as close to the same products from the same vendors as possible. This strategy has also been used when the Government wants to repair that 1965 airplane, and needs parts. They do the same thing, and go back to the original contractors and say "build this widget", and "how much".

 

Does Curt or anyone have the original vendor lists from Atari that lists where the products that went into the Atari were purchased? That's the main ingredient here is to go and say "can you build one of these" and "how much".

Once we have that, then we just have to put together the pieces. After that comes the upgrades that we might want to implement.

 

The only part that I'd like to see made again is the Atari 1200XL keyboard which was made by Mitsumi (love to see an update of that for PC use). But frankly, unless you are going to get something onto store shelves, a low-volume item could do better to mostly recycle existing components.

[peteym5]

Wonder how many would like to see it just as the original Atari 8-bit, or see it with some additional abilities. Which additional abilities could be added and which ones are practical. I am in favor of adding some better graphics modes, better sound, and Hard Drive support.

[tcropper]

I need that vendor list from someone, and we will go from there...

[+remowilliams]

That means using as close to the same products from the same vendors as possible.

 

Does Curt or anyone have the original vendor lists from Atari that lists where the products that went into the Atari were purchased? That's the main ingredient here is to go and say "can you build one of these" and "how much".

Do you have any conception of how unbelievably far fetched that idea is?

[Retro Rogue]

That means using as close to the same products from the same vendors as possible.

 

Does Curt or anyone have the original vendor lists from Atari that lists where the products that went into the Atari were purchased? That's the main ingredient here is to go and say "can you build one of these" and "how much".

Do you have any conception of how unbelievably far fetched that idea is?

 

 

I wonder if I go to Ford and their subcontractors and demand they make parts to support my dad's '66 Ford Galaxy 500 convertible if they'll do it. After all, I know who manufactured the parts. So build them, and how much? Oh wait, I'm not working with government contracts with built in support clauses, established contractors with long working relationships (i.e. that 1965 Boeing airplane), and an almost trillion dollar defense budget.

Edited October 17, 2007 by wgungfu

[tcropper]

They ARE re-manufacturing car parts for almost every car now. Hemingway Magazine I think it's called. You can get a part for your 1920 Model T whatever Ford, as well as many others.

 

So what kind of format is the vendor list in? Do you have it in a PDF that can be emailed, or is it scattered amongst lots of papers that you have? I will pay for the copies.

[+remowilliams]

So what kind of format is the vendor list in? Do you have it in a PDF that can be emailed, or is it scattered amongst lots of papers that you have? I will pay for the copies.

You clearly have ZERO knowledge of the general history, manufacturing processes, or use of electronics. You might want to start there instead, or stop trolling. Pick one based on your original intent.

 

This has to be a RegalSin situation.

 

My Willem is almost done reading my Pokey. We're almost set for mass duplication!

Edited October 17, 2007 by remowilliams

[tjlazer]

I would love to see a 1250XLD kit kinda like Beetle made. All you would supply is a 1200XL mobo and 1050 drive and you have a nice 1450XLD replica! That would ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Retro Rogue]

They ARE re-manufacturing car parts for almost every car now. Hemingway Magazine I think it's called. You can get a part for your 1920 Model T whatever Ford, as well as many others.

 

So what kind of format is the vendor list in? Do you have it in a PDF that can be emailed, or is it scattered amongst lots of papers that you have? I will pay for the copies.

 

 

Nooo, there is a cottage industry that popped up to support the long running car collecting scene (i.e. hobby). They manufacture similarly functioning (but modernly manufactured) replacement parts (and even then just for the more popular collectible cars, which is why most collectors are still forced to scavage off of non-running or scrap cars). Which for mechanical pieces is hardly the same as using a long obsolete chip fabrication process driven by layouts designed for that process. Or are you really confusing the two?

[+remowilliams]

I would love to see a 1250XLD kit kinda like Beetle made. All you would supply is a 1200XL mobo and 1050 drive and you have a nice 1450XLD replica! That would ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would love to see that too. And that, unlike the ridiculousness being proposed in this thread already, would be possible. Just VERY VERY expensive!

[Retro Rogue]

I would love to see a 1250XLD kit kinda like Beetle made. All you would supply is a 1200XL mobo and 1050 drive and you have a nice 1450XLD replica! That would ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would love to see that too. And that, unlike the ridiculousness being proposed in this thread already, would be possible. Just VERY VERY expensive!

 

 

On that note - I'd love to see some of these motherboards laid out in a modern PCB manufacturing format file so that anyone can go and have their own pcb's made up or mod the layout. As far as casing, as someone mentioned already injection molding would be way to costly. But if someone is going to be building their own 1450xld from a kit, you should be handy enough to pick up a dremel and some sheets of ABS plastic and make your own addition to a 1200xl case.

 

I could see something like a Replica 1 kit where in this case some custom parts have to be taken from an original Atari computer in addition to the modern parts and layout that are provided.

Edited October 17, 2007 by wgungfu

[mos6507]

Wow, I noticed the Speakjet is in stock again. I thought it was discontinued??

 

http://www.speechchips.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=6

[mos6507]

I would love to see a 1250XLD kit kinda like Beetle made. All you would supply is a 1200XL mobo and 1050 drive and you have a nice 1450XLD replica! That would ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

1200 mobo sucks even by vintage standards. It's nothing like what the 1400 motherboards were like. You'd really want to make a new PCB and do a chip transplant. Really, the only thing you can't make anymore are the custom chips and they probably aren't burning out that often. The way to future-proof your hardware is to do a motherboard swap.

Edited October 17, 2007 by mos6507

[tcropper]

Yes, I did forget about the Replica one. So if this guy did it with an Apple PC, why not do something similiar to Atari?

 

I think we need to stop throwing the idea out and start looking at what we could do. Obviously the Apple fans did.

 

My ideas might have lots of holes in them, but it's a start...

[+warerat]

Yes, I did forget about the Replica one. So if this guy did it with an Apple PC, why not do something similiar to Atari?

 

I think we need to stop throwing the idea out and start looking at what we could do. Obviously the Apple fans did.

 

My ideas might have lots of holes in them, but it's a start...

 

Your ideas are great! I'm ready to move forward and get this ball rolling.

 

Last night, I took all your ideas to heart. I didn't know I could pack those features in a FPGA! Coming from a computer engineering background, I went ahead and pounded out VHDL entities that are clock cycle exact to the GTIA and ANTIC ICs. It was really easy because I had the schematics in hand (scanned E-size PDFs). It was really easy turning the NMOS circuitry into VHDL, almost like coding in BASIC. This completes the first step! I have an FPGA board shoehorned in place of the original chips and I'm ready to give you all the source code to market it.

 

Only one thing. How much do you want to pay me for the design? I have a PayPal account if that's OK. I was thinking maybe $7000, and the fees for PayPal? After it gets to my account, I have to leave for the Caribbean for a few weeks. Deal?

[peteym5]

I am sure any modern motherboard using 65816cpu, SIMMs, FPGA (or other modern) chip set, etc could easily be made small enough to fit into any exisiting Atari 8 bit case or small case. Thats if you want to build it as a MB swap out. Some of your other options would be PC cases with a XEGS Keyboard or Laptop cases. Those options are cheaper than making a new mold design for a new case. Many of us want to see if its possible to do the chipset and hardware first before worrying about the outside case. Keep in mind we are looking to make a Atari compatible computer with new technology.

Edited October 17, 2007 by peteym5

[+warerat]

Bzzzzzz.... Ssshhhhh.... Fffffff.... Zzzzz......

 

Petey, you're my hero.

 

Gimme da codez.