(re)build a *NEW* Atari Computer?

[mos6507]

I'd love to have a way to use a 1200XL keyboard with a PC, albeit with a lot of inaccessible characters.

 

The easiest way to do this would be to write a program for the A8 that would send keycodes out serial and then something on the PC that would read in the keycodes and generate keypresses.

[peteym5]

This is definitely a peak into future tech.

Linux based mini devices such as the GP2x & Nokia N800 as well as the Asus offering are opening up a world of possibilities.

They will be the chosen platforms for emulation. Just recently I purchased a gp2x an a usb cradle for it. Not since my 130xe was bought new at a dept store have I felt this level of wonderment.

 

After MUCH thought I came to realize that emulation and hardware are both equally important. With the right board, such as the via epia itx boards you could retrofit any of the 8 bit line in a "McGyveresque" way (see my 1200xp project) and with a good emulation you could capture the feeling of the real hardware while making something that can be relevant for other tasks. They have just recently come out with an even SMALLER board that could fit in a 600XL several times over!!! In a nutshell I'm touting emulation as the cheaper and more feasible answer for instant satisfaction. What we should focus on for the hardware side is an add on device either pci, usb etc for PCs that will allow full use of all atari periphs. Perhaps even make it a universal "80's docking station" full of Atari / Apple / Commodore common interfaces. Hrrrm USB would be the way to go such as the sio to pc USB version. As well a proper interface for using original atari keyboards with PCs might help keep that retrofitted atari more authentic... Especially with character sets etc. It could have a usb header connection that goes right into modern motherboards. I know there are ways now, but something as simple as plugging in the atari keyboard header would be nice especially for a retrofitting kit or something.

 

I think a people on here are not looking to have a PC linux based system emulating an Atari 8-bit, but something that is an original 6502 based system. I know I had suggested upgrades to have a selection of Atari OS, WDC 65C02S, and more ram, but it will be incorporated onto an Atari motherboard. I had priced some of the components, even with the upgrades, I think it is possible to get the parts for less than $100.

 

The ideal of a company like ASUS or other PC motherboard manufacturer to make an Atari 8-bit board with upgrades built in is also possibility. someone did mention that there might be making a motherboard but the manufacturer wants to make an official announcement and presentation themselves, please be patient. I dropped the subject of using a FPGA because no one has yet completed one. I am reserving the subject of using 65816 cpu for another thread.

 

In a brand new machine I would opt for that Atari XL laptop or 1450XLD that our resident hackmeister has made, even if barebones, requiring a donor 800xl and atari disk drive!!!

 

Anyone have any idea how much it would cost to:

#1 Have the potential mold injection facility create the casts from a supplied shell.

#2 Have 100 "copies" made of a 1200xl or a 1450XLD for example.

 

I've got a few ideas that I believe I have to meditate on some as I dont know where to begin to describe. Hahaha.

Great to see the spirit of a new A8 alive and well.

 

Molding a new case and producing a new motherboard will only be feasible if there are people are interested in buying them. Probably better to look to see if we can use something already existing like old Atari cases, laptop case, or something small. Best Electronics had Main boards without chips on them. Has anyone considered contacting Best Electronic to see if how many cases, motherboards, and parts they have one hand?

 

512K of static RAM is one chip. You aren't going to save much by having less so you might as well include at least that much.

 

If this 512k chip can be obtained cheaply, then it might be the best option.

Edited October 29, 2007 by peteym5

[frogstar_robot]

I think a people on here are not looking to have a PC linux based system emulating an Atari 8-bit, but something that is an original 6502 based system. I know I had suggested upgrades to have a selection of Atari OS, WDC 65C02S, and more ram, but it will be incorporated onto an Atari motherboard. I had priced some of the components, even with the upgrades, I think it is possible to get the parts for less than $100.

 

 

How much more feasible would an "A8 Card" for the PC look? What I envision here is an A8 chipset, enhanced or otherwise, on a card that can overlay video on the PC. Drives, printers, and so forth would supplied by periphreal emulation on the PC. Yeah this isn't as cool as little mini-tower A8 but the pain of fabrication is taken down to just the board itself, glue logic, and whatever enhancements you want to make to the A8. With some forethought of design, this could even be a good way to test proposed A8 enhancements. Simulate whatever chip you want to incorporate on the A8 with the PC and use the "super glue logic" chip to interface it to the real hardware. Why incorporate VideoBoardXE when it can be simulated? Or you could even experiment with shutting down the 6502c/65c816 and using software on the PC to drive the rest of the A8 chipset. Shoot, this card needn't incorporate memory. Want a 2MB bankswitched A8 to run some ultra exotic demo? Then allocate it.

 

This could also be combined with a small formfactor motherboard if one wanted a dedicated machine. You'd have an entire universe spanning various forms of partial and total emulation creating a system that can be "modded" on the fly.

 

BTW if any of these "enhanced A8" ideas actually get out of the bluesky stage then chuck in some form of 5200 compatibility. Make the controller interface switchable and modular and the unit can be switched between A8 controllers and 5200 controllers quickly. Incorporating the cart-slot seems a messy loser of an idea though.

[mos6507]

The card idea is a common meme with old platforms. I think they were trying to do this with the Jaguar and the Amiga. Not sure how hard it is to make hobby-based PCI Express cards. Classic PCI is dying fast.

 

Once you hook a card up to the PC you'd probably see little difference between running it via an emulator. Enough for the purist I guess.

 

The common theme in this thread is this desperate avoidance of using modern hardware. The result are plans that are actually too expensive to implement or offer too little added value beyond what is already out there.

 

If you narrow your focus to just making a drop-in replacement motherboard with all the common enhancements onboard, I think the idea is valid. But if you go too far into new grounds then it's a slippery slope of death by overdesign and indecision.

[PacMan]

In the capacity of having started an Atari 800 FPGA project I have been asked by several forum members to share my view on building a new Atari computer.

 

First of all, anyone attempting to create a one-chip solution, integrating all the Atari chips into a FPGA/ASIC will have a tremendous task ahead of him/her. My small hobby project has only gotten so far as having Antic modes 2 and 3 running and nothing else. Just to create this have been a demanding task even though many IP blocks, such as 6502 and Pokey, were obtained from other open source projects.

 

Now the challenging task will not be to do the implementation of the device, although this will be challenging enough. The tough part will be to verify and make certain that your core is 100% (or so) compatible with the real Atari hardware. You will want all the games (and/or other software) to be able to run properly.

 

It is most certainly doable, and anyone setting out to do this will most likely be in for a bumpy but extremely rewarding ride.

 

When you finally have a working model of the Atari hardware it would be a small task to include further enhancements to the graphical end audio engines if anyone wants to. I also don't see any problems in hooking up faster processors and/or other devices that can for some reason not be integrated into the FPGA/ASIC.

 

If the "creator" decides to go for an FPGA solution he could easily make an on-the-fly configurable soft core that could emulate pretty much anything. But wait, there already is such a solution. Check out the C-1 computer that should fill all of the requirements needed.

 

/Pontus

[+remowilliams]

In the capacity of having started an Atari 800 FPGA project I have been asked by several forum members to share my view on building a new Atari computer.

Thanks for sharing your views. As you can see a number of people in this thread (including the OP) have no concept of the amount of work involved in any of their 'ideas' or the feasibility of them.

 

I've got a C1 just waiting for that A8, or Apple, or TI core. Ah well, can always hope.

[frogstar_robot]

The card idea is a common meme with old platforms. I think they were trying to do this with the Jaguar and the Amiga. Not sure how hard it is to make hobby-based PCI Express cards. Classic PCI is dying fast.

 

It may even be doable via USB2 or (upcoming) USB3. Just how much data is involved in the internal workings of an A8?

 

Once you hook a card up to the PC you'd probably see little difference between running it via an emulator. Enough for the purist I guess.

 

Agreed except where the emulator isn't accurate. The card/periphreal would be a boon to those still developing for the A8. You would have less risk of writing code that works OK in the emulator but not the real thing. You'd have your hands on only one keyboard and mouse as you switch between PC and A8 environments.

 

The common theme in this thread is this desperate avoidance of using modern hardware. The result are plans that are actually too expensive to implement or offer too little added value beyond what is already out there.

 

If you narrow your focus to just making a drop-in replacement motherboard with all the common enhancements onboard, I think the idea is valid. But if you go too far into new grounds then it's a slippery slope of death by overdesign and indecision.

 

 

That seems sensible. My idea only gets super ambitious if a "super glue logic" is included to remap the chipset and it's connections on the fly (ah! but you'd get an "easy" 5200 compatibility for free there). Well, I suppose building it into a PC expansion periphreal is ambitious in it's own right. A new compact mobo that accepts an A8 chipset and can be installed either in an existing A8 chassis or an ITX chassis with all current known enhancements stock as you say seems easiest and most likely to pull off. It still seems not too bad to build in some form of 5200 compatibility into such a beast. Though I don't doubt the purists would be dissatisfied if for no other reason they didn't get a cart slot or built in controller ports.

[peteym5]

The card idea is a common meme with old platforms. I think they were trying to do this with the Jaguar and the Amiga. Not sure how hard it is to make hobby-based PCI Express cards. Classic PCI is dying fast.

 

Once you hook a card up to the PC you'd probably see little difference between running it via an emulator. Enough for the purist I guess.

 

The common theme in this thread is this desperate avoidance of using modern hardware. The result are plans that are actually too expensive to implement or offer too little added value beyond what is already out there.

 

If you narrow your focus to just making a drop-in replacement motherboard with all the common enhancements onboard, I think the idea is valid. But if you go too far into new grounds then it's a slippery slope of death by overdesign and indecision.

 

 

I agree with what is being said here, the original intention in this thread is making a true Atari compatible computer outside of using other computer hardware. The only real exception is using some newer auxiliary storage devices like a IDE hard drive. I do not think putting Atari components on a PCI or PCI express card does not gain you much because you can just emulate it with a modern PC. However I like the concept of incorporating projected enhancements into an emulator to not just to see if they work, but to allow developers such as myself to write software for the new hardware and have it ready when it the hardware is released on the market. Anyone want to program these into Atari800 Plus?

 

On the subject of FPGA, I have decided to remain conservative because I am more aware of the work involved. Doing everything on one chip is probably not necessary, but do FPGA, CPU, and RAM all separate. The FPGA is probably as good a way to get around problems of running the CPU and BUS at higher speeds. Maybe do Video for starters on a FPGA/ASIC and maybe do the Audio later.

Edited October 29, 2007 by peteym5

[JamesD]

I think the FPGA is certainly the way to go but PacMan is right... it's a lot of work. And like I said in another post... the Speccy is an easier machine to implement and has been in an FPGA for years... but they are just finally getting the timing to be 100% accurate.

Someone needs to get an initially working version and then start working on exact timing. And once you do that at normal speed then you have to be sure it's still ok at high speed.

 

BTW, the C1 used an FPGA that was too small so I don't see it as an easy target.

[peteym5]

This thread, people are looking at using the original IC chip set on this New Atari Computer. That is going to be a 1450XLD with a few enhancments that are not going to be too costly or put too much on a main board. FPGA is going to be some work and if someone is to make one, the labor costs also has to be considered. Like I said, a fully working version is not available and is not yet an option for the computer that we are looking to make.

Edited October 29, 2007 by peteym5

[mos6507]

I'd like to see a timetable on this project, btw. I could very well see this thread fester for a couple years before anything concrete is created. If you spend too long on a project you may find that it becomes irrelevant, even to yourself. The C=1 project has already reached that point. It's pretty much in perpetual beta. End-users don't really care much about it because all the cores they wanted to use on it were never finished or maybe never even started (like the Atari ones).

[PacMan]

What I'd like to see is a tentative block diagram with the desired functionality of the new motherboard. That would certainly help in making a (very) rough time table and to pin point (if any) difficulties that can arise during the design phase. This block diagram could then be used to define fixed interfaces and having multiple members working on different parts of the project, thus increasing the chance of it ever being realized.

 

Pete, your ball =)

 

/Pontus

Edited October 30, 2007 by PacMan

[peteym5]

On this thread, several options are being explored for a new Atari computer and after several page of posts now I concluded the most cost effective option at this point is getting a hold of existing blank Atari motherboard and putting one IC chips, memory, and a few upgrades. If it is decided to go this route, computers can be made in a few months. It would require some MacGyvering. it Right now I have been asked not to comment on what is going on with a new Atari motherboard. I suggested having a new motherboard designed to make it easier to have upgrades built in instead of massive rewiring, adding boards on top of chips, etc. However still looking for someone officially interested in making one. The FPGA/ASIC ideal would be great if someone wants to dedicate themselves to the work involved.

[mos6507]

"However still looking for someone officially interested in making one. The FPGA/ASIC ideal would be great if someone wants to dedicate themselves to the work involved."

 

So what exactly do you bring to the equation? Are you planning to at least fund this project?

[peteym5]

"However still looking for someone officially interested in making one. The FPGA/ASIC ideal would be great if someone wants to dedicate themselves to the work involved."

 

So what exactly do you bring to the equation? Are you planning to at least fund this project?

 

At this point I am not in a position to fund anything. Right now I am finding vender's for Tcropper who might be doing the project if it can be found feasible. I am finding technology that is existing, proposing getting stuff from warehouses like Best Electronics. I am posting messages on here to see if anyone knows of other sources for parts and explore the most feasible options.

 

Right now, I cannot openly comment on the for-mentioned motherboard. Motherboards minus ICs or with ICs still exist in warehouses that are easy to upgrade.

Edited October 30, 2007 by peteym5

[mos6507]

"Right now, I cannot openly comment"

 

Why the subterfuge?

[peteym5]

Has anyone been able to contact Best Electronics lately, seems like their email server is down and no longer existing. Their page does indicate they have un-populated 1200XL and XEGS motherboards. Is it possible build a good system with those?

[+warerat]

So what exactly do you bring to the equation?

 

Umm, hot air for the soldering stations to put the motherboards together?

 

[peteym5]

So what exactly do you bring to the equation?

 

Umm, hot air for the soldering stations to put the motherboards together?

 

 

Indeed.

 

I should say I cannot release any details regarding that 800xl motherboard replacement at this time. The builder wants to make his own official announcement. Anything you find on here at this point is just a rumor.

 

Just for everyone is aware, Best Electronics seems to be holding large stock of Atari Parts that they might want to sell off. Going to see what they offer for volume discounts. Does anyone have a link for one of the other warehouses?

[+remowilliams]

heir page does indicate they have un-populated 1200XL and XEGS motherboards. Is it possible build a good system with those?

Yes, but what would be the point? You can pretty much just buy an XEGS or 1200XL.

[peteym5]

heir page does indicate they have un-populated 1200XL and XEGS motherboards. Is it possible build a good system with those?

Yes, but what would be the point? You can pretty much just buy an XEGS or 1200XL.

 

I am considering using one of those boards for a new Atari because it would be easier to build with upgrades, install sockets, put in the 512 RAM, and upgrade headers. This is one alternative as to having a new motherboard made. With a populated board, everything might be soldered on the motherboard and takes some extra effort to remove. It would be much easier to install the multi operating system, WDC W65C02S CPU and a few other upgrades.

[jaybird3rd]

peteym5: You wouldn't happen to be "warm to BASIC" or have friends who work at Kinko's, would you?

[peteym5]

No I am neither of those people.

 

I had given some thought and starting to conclude from this thread. If we are looking to make a New Atari Computer that does not have anything extra, you'd be better off getting a computer from Best Electronics or an used one from Ebay.

 

I would think making a new computer, one would expect to have something more than the original computer. A few enhancements do exist right now and a few may be in development right now. I should say wait till the end of the year to see if anything develops like Videoboard XE and the motherboard replacement.

 

So far we established more memory is feasible, multiple operating systems on a chip, and even including a hard drive interface may be possible.

 

Some thing that is certainly out of reach are molding new cases, talking lots of money. If someone gets something going with FPGA/ASIC chips, maybe include it, but also make them available as upgrades for existing computers.

[Math You]

Just out of curiosity, has Atari, Hasbro or Infogrames put any of the Atari hardware in the public domain or was it just the game roms?

[GameEngine]

I think the best is to expand Atari via external add-ons.

I would like to know your opinion on device to double horizontal resolution at the expense of framerate (50/60 ->25/30Hz)

-kind of horizontal flicker fixer.

Feasible? Does something like this exists already? Would it make sens to you ?