Cybergoth Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 And, yes. The pictures are taken from C64. I don't know why Tebe added them as "ST" pictures. He thought such superior artwork couldn't originate from an 8-Bit source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 And, yes. The pictures are taken from C64. I don't know why Tebe added them as "ST" pictures. He thought such superior artwork couldn't originate from an 8-Bit source Probably, because the results are better than the originals in some cases Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 And, yes. The pictures are taken from C64. I don't know why Tebe added them as "ST" pictures. He thought such superior artwork couldn't originate from an 8-Bit source Probably, because the results are better than the originals in some cases The C64 version of Defender of the Crown was indeed much better than the Amiga version, so it's easy to see why one would choose it as the base for a game conversion. If you really thought that it was possible to outdo the C64 graphics, you should have based the A8 picture on the Miggy original though instead of just delivering a "me too" picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 please dont accuse me of not knowing things I do. I have been on the g2f site, and I know what it is and what it does. calling it "ATARI graphics tool" is correct imho. you make ATARI graphics in it dont you? The result can be shown on the A8. But this doesn't include that it is all what the A8 can do. The "details" you mentioned are only for mixing colour purposes, not needed on the A8 because it has enough though. The real benefit was there when the presentation of the metallic FX was done. The stones use the same amount of different colours. Just different brightnesses are used. Making them more looking "real" instead of early 80's limited colour abilities. Depending on the image it is no problem to give them up to 8 shades of grey if the artist decides.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urborg Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 (edited) Another picture from DotC. It was converted some time ago by the polish guy - Gonzo. Based on C64 version. I don't know if Defender of the Crown is really worth to be converted. Of course, almost everybody in the eighties was jealous that C64 had this game. In fact, DotC is a rather simple game. Sure, the graphics are beautyfull and make a climat. But it cost a lot of KB and game is slow, due to frequent disk loads during the game. Already there is a quite good, similar polish game - "Wladca", which is a combination of "Defender of the Crown" and "Iron Lord". Edited May 17, 2008 by urborg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 If you really thought that it was possible to outdo the C64 graphics, you should have based the A8 picture on the Miggy original though instead of just delivering a "me too" picture. Hm.... It's not really "me too". It's only to have a source where to draw on. And the results show the right direction where the artists have to go on. While the C64 image with Robin is a "clean 16 colours picture" , the A8 version makes the setting around fire feel warm. And, perhaps for a better undestanding, I'll repeat it once again: G2F does -by far not feature- all A8 graphics abilities. So the pictures are limited by G2F, not yet by the A8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 (edited) The "details" you mentioned are only for mixing colour purposes, not needed on the A8 because it has enough though. the a8 is restricted to brown/black/green in the same area where the c64 displays black/brown/lt brown/yellow/greys. of course you can insist that the a8 doesnt needs 5 colors, and 3 colors in the same area is better because the machine has otherwise 128.... The real benefit was there when the presentation of the metallic FX was done. lets stick to what was done, and not to your dreams. The stones use the same amount of different colours. Just different brightnesses are used. Making them more looking "real" instead of early 80's limited colour abilities. same amount of different colours is not more "real". its the same quality in my book. the picture shows late 70's limited color abilities: less details, and many tricks to do even that lesser quality compared to a built in mode and a picture thats very simple on the c64. Depending on the image it is no problem to give them up to 8 shades of grey if the artist decides.... lets stick to what was done, and not to your dreams. Edited May 17, 2008 by Oswald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 lets stick to what was done, and not to your dreams. That's the way. On the C64 almost everything is done and we see: It cannot handle most of it correctly. Only scrolling shooters the C64 handles best. same amount of different colours is not more "real". its the same quality in my book. Blabla... Look below at the picture... Two rows of colours. Which one belongs to the A8 and which one belongs to the C64. Actually, the picture cannot take benefit by the other colours of the C64 . Or would you like to have Robin's hat in violett, or blue grass.... While the colours "easily" could be doubled on the Atari picture... (if G2F will work properly in a distant future ) ... the gradients are set better already though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 That's the way. On the C64 almost everything is done and we see: It cannot handle most of it correctly. Only scrolling shooters the C64 handles best. sure, thats your opinion. many atarians disagrees with that. go and fight them Actually, the picture cannot take benefit by the other colours of the C64 . Or would you like to have Robin's hat in violett, or blue grass.... While the colours "easily" could be doubled on the Atari picture... (if G2F will work properly in a distant future ) ... the gradients are set better already though. you're making up stuff again. but dont you see the irony ? you're fighting with pictures done 20 years ago, which doesnt even push the limits of the built in mode of the c64... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 (edited) That's the way. On the C64 almost everything is done and we see: It cannot handle most of it correctly. Only scrolling shooters the C64 handles best. sure, thats your opinion. many atarians disagrees with that. go and fight them It's enough when you doing so... Don Oswald Actually, the picture cannot take benefit by the other colours of the C64 . Or would you like to have Robin's hat in violett, or blue grass.... While the colours "easily" could be doubled on the Atari picture... (if G2F will work properly in a distant future ) ... the gradients are set better already though. you're making up stuff again. but dont you see the irony ? you're fighting with pictures done 20 years ago, which doesnt even push the limits of the built in mode of the c64... Have I overseen the 256 colour mode of the C64? Or what are you dreaming about? The colour usage of exactly 11 colours of the C Piccy is actually the upper limit for a serious colour usage there. I know you will post some picture next, where some violett colour is the shadow of blue... and yellow is the reflected white on a green base... Fact is: The C64 has 16 colours, but not all colours are usable together for all image types. The picture CANNOT be do "better" by image, just by technique. It's like the difference of old "PAL" TV and "HDTV" the techniques are better, but the content may be even worse So, Oswald, now you can post all your C64 fan piccy again, but this doesn't change the fact that C64 only has a very limited palette. Edited May 18, 2008 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaz atarionline.pl Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Wow, next Commodore missionary on Atari forum . sure, thats your opinion. many atarians disagrees with that. go and fight them Please, don't use this kind of argument. Popularity of opinion is not a equal of correctness of opinion. Emkay knows much more about Atari graphics than 98% of atarians. you're making up stuff again. but dont you see the irony? you're fighting with pictures done 20 years ago, which doesnt even push the limits of the built in mode of the c64... I didn't find him fighting with this old pic, he rather try to explain that you and other C= maniacs are wrong about Atari power at least last 20 years . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 So, Oswald, now you can post all your C64 fan piccy again, but this doesn't change the fact that C64 only has a very limited palette. I dont need to post anything. a 20 year c64 picture outdoes the a8: it can show about 6 colors in the area where a8 is restricted to 3. and remember: the c64 doesnt uses any tricks, while you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Ehm. Oswald, I think MK just points to a valid point that Atari colour palette does have more colours than the fixed C64 one. Nothing more... and I have to admit that when you are used to the Atari palette it's kind of limitation when you are switching to C64 (I am not talking here about that you can use the 16 colours etc...). Fröhn ones explained that the colours used in the fixed palette are well choosen but again... if you are used to 128 or 256 compared to 16... then well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Please, don't use this kind of argument. Popularity of opinion is not a equal of correctness of opinion. Emkay knows much more about Atari graphics than 98% of atarians. you will not find a single person in the c64 club who would say that a8 is a better machine. while the opposite is true. I didn't find him fighting with this old pic, he rather try to explain that you and other C= maniacs are wrong about Atari power at least last 20 years . oh, and do you think he is doing it right by claiming that using 3 colors on the same area on a 20 year old pic is better than 6? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 (edited) Ehm. Oswald, I think MK just points to a valid point that Atari colour palette does have more colours than the fixed C64 one. Nothing more... and I have to admit that when you are used to the Atari palette it's kind of limitation when you are switching to C64 (I am not talking here about that you can use the 16 colours etc...). Fröhn ones explained that the colours used in the fixed palette are well choosen but again... if you are used to 128 or 256 compared to 16... then well... does it make his a8 version of c64's defender intro pic any better? no. he is forced instead to drop pixels because of extra limitations compared to c64. emkay argues again emkayish: when its about which is better chocolate or vanilia he comes and says "oh yeah, but you can not deny that a ferrari is faster than a volkswagen" Edited May 18, 2008 by Oswald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 (edited) Oswald... maybe I am too old for this kind of fanboy thing... MK only mentioned a) Tebe's G2F does not utilisise every aspect yet what might be possible b) he did a quite good job converting the pic. Why did you not bashed on the Intellivision port? c) nobody made claims in this thread that A8 is better than C64. And mentioning that A8 colour palette is "better" because of more gradients does not mean that your absolute claim is right... sometimes you remember me of one important cowboy who said "if you are not with me you are against me"...... Edited May 18, 2008 by Heaven/TQA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Sorry to derail the thread...If i recall, wasn't someone (wrathchild) going to do the A8 version of EA's Bards Tale...or am i getting mixed up with Elite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 a) Tebe's G2F does not utilisise every aspect yet what might be possibleb) he did a quite good job converting the pic. Why did you not bashed on the Intellivision port? c) nobody made claims in this thread that A8 is better than C64. And mentioning that A8 colour palette is "better" because of more gradients does not mean that your absolute claim is right... sometimes you remember me of one important cowboy who said "if you are not with me you are against me"...... a) just like the c64 picture in question. in fact it uses a built in mode. b) indeed is a conversion as faithful to the original as possible imho. bashing started when emkay started going how his version is "far" better. c) claiming c64 is only better regarding scrolling shooters and it does all other genre "incorrectly" is the same as claiming a8 is better d) mentioning that the a8 has more colors will not make the picture in question any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 btw if anyone is interested to port this game over, GRG on the c64 has made a one disk side version out of it.(half of the orginal 2 sides) bet he knows a lot of the game's workings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 This game should be easy to port on Atari, I wonder nobody has taken interest on it before. Maybe could be a collective Atariage project, because have a lot of little parts and some graphics has been done. We only need a Director that have a lot of experience on this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 you definitly need somebody who knows the c64 as well... not only by playing the game on c64... and of course the A8 as well... so Oswald could be a candidate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 you definitly need somebody who knows the c64 as well... not only by playing the game on c64... and of course the A8 as well... so Oswald could be a candidate... How could a guy help who names simple colour transitions "details"? I can see Oswald "helping" doing stuff on the A8: Someone "ho do we this" Oswald "C64 is better" (copied) Someone "how do we that" Oswald "C64 is better" (pasted) .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 a) just like the c64 picture in question. in fact it uses a built in mode. That's the crux a) G2F uses built in modes plus colour enhancements b) G2F does not take usage of all "internal modes" .. b) indeed is a conversion as faithful to the original as possible imho. bashing started when emkay started going how his version is "far" better. Well C64 shows a picture with 11 colours where the A8 has 15 already (using 30% of the real capacity for that pic). You can jump in triangles , you can pull your hair off, and you may cry in your pillow at night, but this fact will never change. It's your argumentation that more colours show a superior machine. c) claiming c64 is only better regarding scrolling shooters and it does all other genre "incorrectly" is the same as claiming a8 is better You just again implement that I was talking about "A8" is better than "C64" . But there was no comparision there. I was thinking about ridiculous Stream on the C64 and even more ridiculous pictures of humans with a "fubar" colour usage. d) mentioning that the a8 has more colors will not make the picture in question any better. Not only the A8 has more colours. The A8 "Robin" picture has already more colours than the C64 can give to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 you will not find a single person in the c64 club who would say that a8 is a better machine. while the opposite is true. Yeah, but for some reason they seem to prefer Atari forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 you will not find a single person in the c64 club who would say that a8 is a better machine. while the opposite is true. Yeah, but for some reason they seem to prefer Atari forums. Doesn't stop us being interested... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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