Defender of the crown for the 8bit?

[+remowilliams]

I can't believe that people are still carrying on the old 8bit wars. Guys - we can all afford either or both now if we wish, and each excels in its own strengths. I was a die hard A8 user back in the day, but I now own, enjoy and appreciate 5 A8 types and 5 C64 types.

 

(A8 > C64) & (C64 >A8)

 

Can we let this go?

[Allas]

Of course, at no time is the hardware generating anything but the 16 hard wired colors but mixing them in various ways between frames and lines allows for a greater number of perceived colors and quite impressive displays are possible.

This is not true. The PAL decoder indeed does create new colors because it mixes the color carrier of the current rasterline 50% with the color carrier of the previous rasterline. That's also why the Atari 256 color mode works: The color carrier of the dark rasterlines mixes into the color carrier of the luminance rasterlines.

 

For C64 this means you can mix any two colors with the same luminance, but also color bars and dithering looks a lot smoother since color tones which wouldn't fit to each other automatically get much closer to each other.

 

This is an example of an image which explicitely uses PAL decoder color mixing to produce new colors without flickering:

 

 

- works on NTSC tvs?

- works on monitors?

- where i can find the original source to test on my C128?

[13matt]

my toaster manages to do two slices of bread in under three minutes, no trickery there

 

though i don't know if i could tell if there was any cpu heavy nonsense going on when i eat the bread

 

and i'm not sure how many shades of brown i can see either

 

Sorry if it sounds like i'm not taking this seriously :s

 

 

I wonder what's you intention?

 

Why do you start a thread and than treating it like a can on the street

 

 

The thread is serious, I'm not kicking it

 

just dislike the "mines better than yours" argument from some ppl

 

Not demeaning the great work that is being done on the A8 - i think its amazing

 

just think that arguments that come with it are laughable.

 

You are very correct in what you say about end users being blind to what goes on "under the hood". Ok so ppl who know what is going on will appreciate it more from a technical standpoint. But the closer the game looks to the original the better.

 

and in a kind of toungue in cheek way i was backing you up, sorry if silly comments are unwelcome, just hoping to make someone smile, seemed like too many frowns of rivalry

 

is funny though, when the c64 forums are talking about yoomp and getting it to work, i didn't notice any posts putting down the c64 from atari owners saying how slow the machine was, just lots of support from people who wanted the game completed.

[13matt]

I can't believe that people are still carrying on the old 8bit wars. Guys - we can all afford either or both now if we wish, and each excels in its own strengths. I was a die hard A8 user back in the day, but I now own, enjoy and appreciate 5 A8 types and 5 C64 types.

 

(A8 > C64) & (C64 >A8)

 

Can we let this go?

 

Really was what i was getting at with the toaster gag

 

Both machines are ace

 

Both have their strengths

 

Both have their drawbacks

[jvas]

I can't believe that people are still carrying on the old 8bit wars. Guys - we can all afford either or both now if we wish, and each excels in its own strengths. I was a die hard A8 user back in the day, but I now own, enjoy and appreciate 5 A8 types and 5 C64 types.

 

(A8 > C64) & (C64 >A8)

 

Can we let this go?

 

Yes, completely agree. If everything might be programmed the same way on both machines, then this would mean that they are identical. Thanks God they aren't. Some things need additional programming on A8, some others need additional programming on the C64. Some thing need to be done in a way on A8 and differently on C64. There is a hardware designed for a function in one computer, there isn't in another. Which one is better? You can't even compare the same game ported to these machines, since many times the developer differs, the money behind the product differs, the market differs, etc... Actually you can compare, but it doesn't mean that you compared the two computer.

Which picture looks better? Completly subjective. Nothing to do with the facts of which computer capable of what. I saw better (for me) picture with less colors. Or what do you think, which one is better: 320x200 in 1 Color, or 80x40 in 16 color? Nonsense.

 

Jozsi

[emkay]

This is an example of an image which explicitely uses PAL decoder color mixing to produce new colors without flickering:

 

You know , with the argumentation that the C64 can display more than 16 colours caused by PAL errors in decoding the signal, you easily can count possible 16k colours with the A8.

Due to the NTSC "errors" the A8 is really showing colours in hires. Or better: every colour clock it can change between hires and colours...

 

Hey that's better than C64 which can change the modes every byte only

Edited May 22, 2008 by emkay

[Oswald]

Now...what do you say if I tell you that non-flickering rasterinterrupt on C64 is trickery and cheating? as it is not "build" in? agreed?

 

yes. there are various tricks on the c64 to achieve a stable raster. tho allas would disagree with you:

 

"QUOTE (Allas @ Tue May 20, 2008 9:07 AM) *

So, all i want to say in brief: natural programming is not a TRICK."

[Oswald]

You are looking for an argument that you can feel good about winning and you've picked a really stupid place to have it

indeed. talking about atari hw on atariage is a really stupid place. =)

And the A8 vs C-64 argument is a moldy oldy.

yeah I know. so?

Nobody really cares if a given result requires some technique not necessary on a C-64 (or vice versa)

allas, emkay, tmr, heaven, etc etc seem to care. do you allow as to talk about it ?

so we can get back to discussing how the get the best displays out of an A8.

nobody forced you not to discuss that.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Oswald

[Oswald]

You know , with the argumentation that the C64 can display more than 16 colours caused by PAL errors in decoding the signal, you easily can count possible 16k colours with the A8.

 

sure. but this is not an error. this is how the pal decoder circuitry is designed, and works.

 

Due to the NTSC "errors" the A8 is really showing colours in hires. Or better: every colour clock it can change between hires and colours...

Hey that's better than C64 which can change the modes every byte only

 

can you explain that? how can I see if a pixel is hires or colors ? what kind of mode is colors ?

[Heaven/TQA]

Oswald, he means NTSC Artifacting like Apple 2 and on NTSC A8 machines...

 

but back to topic... I just played little bit DOTC on c64... holy crap... what about converting the stuff in Turbo Basic?

[emkay]

sure. but this is not an error. this is how the pal decoder circuitry is designed, and works.

 

No. It's how fast capacitors load and deload.... Thats why close brightness differences mix to an approximated value and why colours mixup, by approximated voltages that are resulting by the voltage and current that was hold by capacity and inductivity (coils).

The faster the correct voltages are reached, the more the colours and brightnesses are at the value of the source.

It's depending on the TV set whether you see clearly the mixed colours or not.

 

My 18 years old TV set has a digital enhancer. The TV even doesn't show the "simple" PAL arefacts. While the C 1084 is heavily showing them.

[Bryan]

Back to business:

 

Some thoughts on the various screens required. I based these on a couple YouTube videos of the 64 version (6Kk9UfFEYvM,qs-kFXko10M&)

 

1. Choose a character

 

Pretty straightforward. Text and a small picture.

 

2. "Message Board"

 

This screen is designed to display long text messages. The text is on top of a brown sign. I'd do this one in mode 320 text (M0) with PM's for all the coloring. 160 text is simpler, but would look blocky.

 

3. Status Screen

 

This one will be tricky at the top because of the combined text and graphics. The screen could be rearranged a bit, or 160 text could be used in places (yuck). It may also be possible to generate the images using player tricks or the mid-line 320 to 160 trick, but I haven't really investigated how it would come out.

 

4. Map

 

I'm pretty sure this is going to need to be all 160x5-color text (M4) plus players.

 

5. Sword fight 1

 

G2F tricks can be used down to the point where the fighting happens. Fortunately, this screen is visually very simple. The fighters can be made from PMs for the primary coloring, plus some SW sprite action for the other colors.

 

6. Sword fight 2

 

A little trickier, but only two fighters are needed, freeing up some more color. Since we need a SW sprite routine for the shadows anyway, it would be nice to make them show up on both sides of the middle post.

 

7. Love sequence

 

Very doable. Just need a good way to compress down the animation bits.. Add X-rated Easter-Egg scene...

 

8. Catapult

 

Will need the ability to animate the launched objects in a fairly colorful scene. May be able to only use existing picture colors and do SW sprites.

 

9. Outdoor swordfight

 

Very simple screen.

 

10. Joust 1 (bird's eye view)

 

Mostly G2F. Pretty simple. Limited sprite action.

 

11. Joust 2 (side view)

 

Little bit trickier. Combined SW and Player sprites.

 

12. Joust 3 (1st person)

 

Colorful scene with large moving objects. May be best handled as a G2F picture sequence for the lower half of the screen. Lance will need to be an unused Player.

 

 

Comments? I think it can be very pretty with very few lost colors.

 

-Bry

Edited May 22, 2008 by Bryan

[Oswald]

sure. but this is not an error. this is how the pal decoder circuitry is designed, and works.

 

No. It's how fast capacitors load and deload.... Thats why close brightness differences mix to an approximated value and why colours mixup, by approximated voltages that are resulting by the voltage and current that was hold by capacity and inductivity (coils).

The faster the correct voltages are reached, the more the colours and brightnesses are at the value of the source.

It's depending on the TV set whether you see clearly the mixed colours or not.

 

 

No what ? it does exactly what I have said. Quote from wikipedia:

 

"most receivers now use a chrominance delay line, which stores the received colour information on each line of display; an average of the colour information from the previous line and the current line is then used to drive the picture tube."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL

[13matt]

I think it can be very pretty with very few lost colors.

 

-Bry

 

 

Think you're right

 

Would be a good showcase for G2F

 

Couldn't the lance be hard coded, is only a triangle after all

[13matt]

back to topic... I just played little bit DOTC on c64... holy crap... what about converting the stuff in Turbo Basic?

 

 

Well i had gotten as far as writing a post saying this, but then i deleted it. Was worried about lookin stoopid

 

[Bryan]

No what ? it does exactly what I have said. Quote from wikipedia:

 

"most receivers now use a chrominance delay line, which stores the received colour information on each line of display; an average of the colour information from the previous line and the current line is then used to drive the picture tube."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL

 

Yep. The whole argument for PAL is that the color phase is reversed on every line so any color shift in transmission is averaged out by the next line having an equal error in the opposite direction. The chroma averaging circuit makes this method even more effective by hiding the banding that might otherwise appear in the picture. The downside is a small loss of vertical color resolution.

 

NTSC uses the same phase for all lines, so no averaging is employed and the signal is somewhat sharper but more prone to color errors. Today all the equipment is much better than it was 40 years ago so most of the signal integrity issues have gone away. Of course, these standards are rapidly going away too...

 

-Bry

[Bryan]

I think it can be very pretty with very few lost colors.

 

-Bry

 

 

Think you're right

 

Would be a good showcase for G2F

 

Couldn't the lance be hard coded, is only a triangle after all

 

No, because you can move it around. It's the only thing you really control in the joust.

[Fröhn]

This is an example of an image which explicitely uses PAL decoder color mixing to produce new colors without flickering:

- works on NTSC tvs?

No.

 

- works on monitors?

Yes.

 

- where i can find the original source to test on my C128?

There is an easy way: Just define a custom font with on char 0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0, another char with 255;255;255;255;255;255;255;255 and a third one with 255;0;255;0;255;0;255;0. Example would be: blue background color, brown character color = third char mixes both chromas perfectly.

 

You know , with the argumentation that the C64 can display more than 16 colours caused by PAL errors in decoding the signal, you easily can count possible 16k colours with the A8.

Not 16k, I calculated 1088 colors (136 chromas * 8 lumas)

 

EDIT: it should be mentioned that many of those colors would be grey or close to grey when you choose two chromas which are on opposite sides on the color wheel.

 

Due to the NTSC "errors" the A8 is really showing colours in hires. Or better: every colour clock it can change between hires and colours...

Yeps, A8 NTSC can do color artefacting in hires, A8 PAL can mix chromas.

 

Hey that's better than C64 which can change the modes every byte only

Only on NTSC.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Fröhn

[emkay]

I think it can be very pretty with very few lost colors.

 

-Bry

 

 

Think you're right

 

Would be a good showcase for G2F

 

Couldn't the lance be hard coded, is only a triangle after all

 

 

Well, as I wrote earlier. Particular this kind of games, included all graphics adverntures could have been "lightyears" better than what was there back then.

 

Having a look at the 1st person joust, the best solution was to use gr. 10 with player enhancements (for example). Just look how ugly and detail-less the graphics is there in the c64 version. Good organized drawing there would make an impression of a low res movie ....

[Rybags]

 

Sneak preview of my new graphics mode.

 

The colour mix isn't so great here - bit of a rushed pic conversion.

 

Executable file - looks a lot better on a real machine than on emulation. Binary load file (without cart).

 

Press SPACE to toggle interlace off/on.

 

CROWN1.zip

[emkay]

 

Sneak preview of my new graphics mode.

 

The colour mix isn't so great here - bit of a rushed pic conversion.

 

Executable file - looks a lot better on a real machine than on emulation. Binary load file (without cart).

 

Press SPACE to toggle interlace off/on.

 

CROWN1.zip

 

Really , interlace and/or "blank" lines are doing not good here.

If I only had more time and a full working Graph2font tool, I would do an example of "the real thing".

[Chrodegang]

If I only had more time and a full working Graph2font tool, I would do an example of "the real thing".

 

[TimsterAA]

All I can say is an A8 version of DOTC would be fantabulous! (Coming from a Commodore-man who now luckily owns and uses all the old platforms)

 

I'm not a computer bigot. I remember well the C64/A8 wars, and participated actively in them 25 years ago. But being 40 provides a much more mature viewpoint of things (for most people) than when 14. I love all the systems now, love having them, and play them all - frequently!

 

If this game is being redone for the A8, there's only one request I can even think of - MAKE THE JOUSTING WINNABLE!!! I think in the 25 years of playing this game countless times, I have succeeded in unseating my opponent a grand total of one time. And that was probably by accident!

 

Oh - and the X-rated easter-egg for the romance scene sounds like fun too! Hot A8-DOTC Coffee, anyone?

 

--Timster--

[+CharlieChaplin]

Well,

here are the mentioned A8 versions of DotC that are available right now:

- Wladca (if this is the DotC clone ?!?) by Mirage - might be good, alas its all in polish language...

- Adalmar by PPP - its absolutely shitty, uses german language and menus and has lots of bugs which bring you back to the CTB-Runtime every now and then (Error xxx at line, DOS, RUN or LOAD ?), still it was a commercial game...

 

Hopefully someone can do something better... -Andreas Koch.

[miker]

- Wladca (if this is the DotC clone ?!?) by Mirage - might be good, alas its all in polish language...

 

You're putting this silly argument everywhere you can. Is this so hard to understand that if something was supposed to sell in Poland so the language it uses is also Polish?

 

Btw. Is the ABBUC mag still in German?

 

I still have a plan to translate some of Polish games to more universal language but maybe i'll (better) change my mind...

 

Sorry for the offtopic.

Edited May 29, 2008 by miker