Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 ok.... please stop saying ALL cpu time... for the "overlayed" DLI G2F-style of gfx we would still have the whole VBL time left to do things... so start coding first and then come back... sorry...now I am getting into this fighting mode which I don't wanted to be... ok, I will. c64 uses no cpu and sprites vs a8 using 60-70% cpu and all sprites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaPa Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 yes, having 100x lower color density than c64 has while the cpu is iddle. you can have some colored boxes with that, while the c64 is displaying a real picture. On ATARI you can have 23 consecutive pixels in resolution 160x200 each with different color with CPU sitting idle (your worshipped phrase). Show me your C64's 100x better color density. You can't whatever you do because only 16 colors pallete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 yes, having 100x lower color density than c64 has while the cpu is iddle. you can have some colored boxes with that, while the c64 is displaying a real picture. On ATARI you can have 23 consecutive pixels in resolution 160x200 each with different color with CPU sitting idle (your worshipped phrase). Show me your C64's 100x better color density. You can't whatever you do because only 16 colors pallete. thats just a very special case everyone knows. the c64 can have higher density over a whole picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaPa Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 (edited) yes, having 100x lower color density than c64 has while the cpu is iddle. you can have some colored boxes with that, while the c64 is displaying a real picture. On ATARI you can have 23 consecutive pixels in resolution 160x200 each with different color with CPU sitting idle (your worshipped phrase). Show me your C64's 100x better color density. You can't whatever you do because only 16 colors pallete. thats just a very special case everyone knows. the c64 can have higher density over a whole picture. And what? Every ATARI picture with >16 colors (even if with simple rainbow) has higher color density over a whole picture than C64 will ever have. Edited April 17, 2009 by MaPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 (edited) And what? Every ATARI picture with >16 colors (even if with simple rainbow) has higher color density over a whole picture than C64 will ever have. color density = how many different colors can you display in smaller areas on average on the full picture. there's a reason I speak about color density and not about number of colors. Edited April 17, 2009 by Wolfram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Atari density colors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Atari density colors vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaPa Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 And what? Every ATARI picture with >16 colors (even if with simple rainbow) has higher color density over a whole picture than C64 will ever have. color density = how many different colors can you display in smaller areas on average on the full picture. there's a reason I speak about color density and not about number of colors. And how big the smaller area are will decide who? YOU? I did choose area 160x200.. ok, I can i.e. split it in half.. 160x100 in each part >16 colors, thus higher density... or in quarters in each >16 colors.. the same... etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 And what? Every ATARI picture with >16 colors (even if with simple rainbow) has higher color density over a whole picture than C64 will ever have. color density = how many different colors can you display in smaller areas on average on the full picture. there's a reason I speak about color density and not about number of colors. And how big the smaller area are will decide who? YOU? I did choose area 160x200.. ok, I can i.e. split it in half.. 160x100 in each part >16 colors, thus higher density... or in quarters in each >16 colors.. the same... etc. well I dont know a better definiton to the obvious fact that c64 can display more differently colored pixels in tight areas over the whole picture as a8, you deliberately want to misunderstand it but we all know what I am talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Atari density colors vs Simple, but more density and more much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 @Wolfram It's nice for your C64 that it can sit still during all what it shows on the screen, but even when you let your C64 CPU do something, it won't change a thing. And that is kudo's for Atari 8bit. It can do 'anything' what you want. I prefer a computer who works hard and shows what I want, than to be restricted, and have a CPU that sit still.... But as I told: you think C64 is best, so whatever we bring up will not change your mind. And whatever you come with, will not change mine. Don't be suprised to find atari lovers on a forum called "atariage" Greetz M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 @Wolfram It's nice for your C64 that it can sit still during all what it shows on the screen, but even when you let your C64 CPU do something, it won't change a thing. And that is kudo's for Atari 8bit. It can do 'anything' what you want. I prefer a computer who works hard and shows what I want, than to be restricted, and have a CPU that sit still.... thats not quite correct. c64 can display pictures that look like true 320x200x16 (without interlace) with the help of the cpu. so it changes a thing or two... so kudo's for atari 8 bit for having a gfx chip which need the help of the cpu to come close to c64 default modes, which are not cpu aided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 @wolfram Sounds cool indeed. Another point, what I almost did forget, the atari 8bit has a community with much nicer people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Atari density colors vs As more of these "Speccy palette" pics are popping up as more I love my A8 palette... to be honest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GameEngine Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 As more of these "Speccy palette" pics are popping up as more I love my A8 palette... to be honest... Same here. Can one choose pallette in any of c64 emulators (for the original hardware only b/w monitor would help I suppose)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 To using the famous Atari Jaguar strapline 'Do the Math' Atari 8bit....cpu at 1.79 or 1.77mhz C64....cpu at sub 1 mhz (from what memory recalls) Though I recall someone telling me you can swap out the 6510 in a c64 for a 2mhz 6502 (without modding the machine in anyway)...something to do with the c64 having a 2mhz toggle switch in one of it's hardware locations (from what memory recalls) If i want a 4096 (or 256+) colour/color piccy i'll go out an buy an STE or Amiga...It's nice that the A8 and c64 can do this, but at the expense of cpu resourses (though it does appear the A8 uses less cpu resources in displaying such a picture as it has a graphics processor, not just a graphics chip) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 The C-128 in 64 mode could do 2 MHz but it has to be in the offscreen area or with the screen disabled. The C64 can't just do 2 MHz with a CPU swap. It's not that simple. No function exists to cater for the VIC-II DMA that's normally transparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 To using the famous Atari Jaguar strapline 'Do the Math' Atari 8bit....cpu at 1.79 or 1.77mhz C64....cpu at sub 1 mhz (from what memory recalls) Doing the math again: 1.77 vs 0.985 MHz doesn't mean that A8 is 80% faster. Since A8 steals a lot of DMA cycles from the CPU and the C64 doesn't, on a normal screenmode (160x200@4cols, 320x200@2cols) the A8 is only 20% faster than a C64. On the expanded pixel modes it's about 50% faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Fröhn...which hardware do you have? http://www.go64.de/shop/index.php/cat/c4_C64-Hardware.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 (edited) As more of these "Speccy palette" pics are popping up as more I love my A8 palette... to be honest... Same here. Can one choose pallette in any of c64 emulators (for the original hardware only b/w monitor would help I suppose)? as more of these horribly colored pics are popping up, the more I love my c64 for being able to put the right colors into the right place.... what do we have here? the picture of the yearthousand, showing 29 colors! but whats there ? the same ugly yelloish brown color used for leafes/hair/tree/face/table/flower. An ugly color which is between puprle and blue displayed as sky/tshirt used instead of green (urgh!). Black is also all over the place, black for grass color/leaves on flowers/a whole butterfly wing? sorry I cant take that... a c64 can simply use brown for trees, green for grass, blue for sky. a c64 is not forced to display purple&green together. a c64 can use the right colors for the right place. also just check the tiny details the c64 is able to display _everywhere_ & the cpu idling, while on a8 it works like crazy, and still it has large areas 2/monocolored. Edited April 17, 2009 by Wolfram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 I love the atari 600xl shown on the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogstar_robot Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 its about built in modes. you can forget the clown. It sounds more like reframing the argument so that you have a strawman to beat the crap out of. The A8 chipset has no "graphics modes" it has line modes which are built into "graphics modes" as well as various ways individual modelines can be affected under anywhere from minimal to moderate CPU intervention which is exactly what Mr. Miner's team intended. It is expected by A8 developers that the graphics hardware will be directed. And yes, quite usable and artful displays can be build with plenty of CPU time left over for other tasks. The rate at which the CPU runs, the DMA, interrupts, Display Lists and so-forth are all of an integrated piece. It is supposed to work that way and Atari devs are quite correct to think "WTH?" when tasked with such facetious argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 (edited) its about built in modes. you can forget the clown. It sounds more like reframing the argument so that you have a strawman to beat the crap out of. The A8 chipset has no "graphics modes" it has line modes which are built into "graphics modes" as well as various ways individual modelines can be affected under anywhere from minimal to moderate CPU intervention which is exactly what Mr. Miner's team intended. It is expected by A8 developers that the graphics hardware will be directed. And yes, quite usable and artful displays can be build with plenty of CPU time left over for other tasks. The rate at which the CPU runs, the DMA, interrupts, Display Lists and so-forth are all of an integrated piece. It is supposed to work that way and Atari devs are quite correct to think "WTH?" when tasked with such facetious argument. actling like there's no difference between built in and cpu driven modes wont help. I can define the matter easily so that you cant escape: c64 can display a better picture without it's cpu touching any gfx chip regs without using "sprites" at all, than the a8 doing as hard as it can the opposite. "It is expected by A8 developers that the graphics hardware will be directed." indeed, now compare this graphics hardware to one which doesnt expects cpu help, and does still better ? no more comment needed. Edited April 17, 2009 by Wolfram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 As more of these "Speccy palette" pics are popping up as more I love my A8 palette... to be honest... Same here. Can one choose pallette in any of c64 emulators (for the original hardware only b/w monitor would help I suppose)? as more of these horribly colored pics are popping up, the more I love my c64 for being able to put the right colors into the right place.... what do we have here? the picture of the yearthousand, showing 29 colors! but whats there ? the same ugly yelloish brown color used for leafes/hair/tree/face/table/flower. An ugly color which is between puprle and blue displayed as sky/tshirt used instead of green (urgh!). Black is also all over the place, black for grass color/leaves on flowers/a whole butterfly wing? sorry I cant take that... a c64 can simply use brown for trees, green for grass, blue for sky. a c64 is not forced to display purple&green together. a c64 can use the right colors for the right place. also just check the tiny details the c64 is able to display _everywhere_ & the cpu idling, while on a8 it works like crazy, and still it has large areas 2/monocolored. Powrooz has choosen this colours because he wanted to have these colours not because he was restricted in terms of fixed colours from the 16 palette... if we wanted to have purple background or tshirt then it is like it is... his choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 (edited) Powrooz has choosen this colours because he wanted to have these colours not because he was restricted in terms of fixed colours from the 16 palette... if we wanted to have purple background or tshirt then it is like it is... his choice. ..and if he wanted a blue sky he'd have a blue tshirt&blue tree, or if he wanted a red tshirt, he'd have a red sky & red tree, or if he wanted a brown tree he'd have a brown sky & brown tshirt. sorry, we both know thats not the reason. it's simply a8's limitations. it's charmode, and I can easily tell the main character colors being: purple, white,black, gray and the most used green. when you have 128 colors, the only thing makes you use 5 colors only on the majority of the picture (not to talk about purple is used to "enhance" greens) , is the limitations. Edited April 17, 2009 by Wolfram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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