atariksi Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 I actually had to write a viewer in Windows (in the past 24 hours) to display the Atari format images on the PC and then screen capture it, paste into paintbrush, and then save as JPG. I think I need to get PNG module to it saves it losslessly. Here's another one w/8pixel fix-ups/scanline using sprites followed by an interlaced version of the same: nice, no miscolored pictures... You purposely used a 16-gray scale mode to represent an image that's not a gray-scale image. You should have used a colored mode if original is colored. You could have easily used something like a 160*200*4 mode and change palette every scanline to best fit colors in a line as a start if resolution was important... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Don't just quote back one message; you also did state palette was subjective and I just replied to that. >now please stop with the personal insults, which have no truth. No personal insults; there are messages in this topic which are your biased views and that's what I'm pointing out. I have given proofs that what you have said is not true. You have not prooven your statements. So just stop with the untrue personal insults. Thanks for being as vague as possible. What have you proven to be untrue? That palette is objective, that atari joystick i/o is superior to C64, that Atari has a faster CPU, more color depth, etc. etc. And if you don't trust the images, just run the demo posted earlier in this thread on a REAL Atari. The only difference is it doesn't have the 8 fix-ups per scanline using sprites-- instead has something better-- a 7-shaded curtain on top of a 16-shade image. thats not what we are talking about. you have written a whole post ,just to insult me personally. then I have given proof none of what you said there it is true. feel free to say "I'm sorry". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 now I have to jump in... regarding "built in modes on A8". well...you have to say built in BASIC or OS on A8.... we do not have BUILT in modes... when coding in assembler one of the first things I am doing is designing the display list... so to say the screen layout... so... it is up to me as a coder... freedom... the VIC2 has hardwired built in modes... you are triggering hardware for additional modes but at the end of the day they are carved in stone... or silicon. I tend to say that the VIC-20 (VIC1) chip offeres more freedom... you can have different screen layouts, fullscreen modes, scrolling of whole screen etc... yeah, indeed: freedom to choose from many modes which are inferior to the c64. let's just define built in modes: built in mode is one which doesnt uses the cpu to better the picture. both a8 and c64 has such modes. and c64 is better at it. and even if you throw cpu at it on a8, you are lagging behind. the c64 is already doing a game infront of the gfx screen with the same effort of the a8 trying to bring in more colors. "Inferior" is your biased views. I already told you Graphics 1 and Graphics 2 are very useful modes as I have seen many people use it in video titling and presentation scrollers. And your C64 requires a ton of CPU cycles to implement these modes. It requires a ton of CPU cycles to implement any scrolling in any modes (past the 3 bits). Also, lower resolutions are useful for scores or other things and can speed up CPU and for switching windows in and out of graphics screens. And how are GTIA modes inferior to your modes. Don't say anything biased now-- I just presented proof of imagery in front of your eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 its about built in modes. you can forget the clown. Atari doesn't have screen built in modes, only line modes. Believe or not, when you turn on the Atari, doesn't have any mode on it. There is no 320x200 or 320x240 or 160x200 or 192x200 screen modes, those screens must to be programmed on the Antic first. call it what you like, if the cpu doesnt helps the a8 gfx chip, the pictures lag behind the c64 in quality really badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 (edited) now I have to jump in... regarding "built in modes on A8". well...you have to say built in BASIC or OS on A8.... we do not have BUILT in modes... when coding in assembler one of the first things I am doing is designing the display list... so to say the screen layout... so... it is up to me as a coder... freedom... the VIC2 has hardwired built in modes... you are triggering hardware for additional modes but at the end of the day they are carved in stone... or silicon. I tend to say that the VIC-20 (VIC1) chip offeres more freedom... you can have different screen layouts, fullscreen modes, scrolling of whole screen etc... yeah, indeed: freedom to choose from many modes which are inferior to the c64. let's just define built in modes: built in mode is one which doesnt uses the cpu to better the picture. both a8 and c64 has such modes. and c64 is better at it. and even if you throw cpu at it on a8, you are lagging behind. the c64 is already doing a game infront of the gfx screen with the same effort of the a8 trying to bring in more colors. Atari always use his CPU with any mode graphics created (ok, except with a complete blank screen, useful to accelerate calculations) Edited April 17, 2009 by Allas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 You purposely used a 16-gray scale mode to represent an image that's not a gray-scale image. You should have used a colored mode if original is colored. You could have easily used something like a 160*200*4 mode and change palette every scanline to best fit colors in a line as a start if resolution was important... I have used what the a8 has to offer without extra cpu help. and that is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Don't just quote back one message; you also did state palette was subjective and I just replied to that. >now please stop with the personal insults, which have no truth. No personal insults; there are messages in this topic which are your biased views and that's what I'm pointing out. I have given proofs that what you have said is not true. You have not prooven your statements. So just stop with the untrue personal insults. Thanks for being as vague as possible. What have you proven to be untrue? That palette is objective, that atari joystick i/o is superior to C64, that Atari has a faster CPU, more color depth, etc. etc. And if you don't trust the images, just run the demo posted earlier in this thread on a REAL Atari. The only difference is it doesn't have the 8 fix-ups per scanline using sprites-- instead has something better-- a 7-shaded curtain on top of a 16-shade image. thats not what we are talking about. you have written a whole post ,just to insult me personally. then I have given proof none of what you said there it is true. feel free to say "I'm sorry". You have been insulting me regarding using joystick I/O ever since you joined atariage. You did say Atari palette is subjective and that was one reason why I stated not to trust you since that's just such a simple truth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 "Inferior" is your biased views. I already told you Graphics 1 and Graphics 2 are very useful modes as I have seen many people use it in video titling and presentation scrollers. And your C64 requires a ton of CPU cycles to implement these modes. It requires a ton of CPU cycles to implement any scrolling in any modes (past the 3 bits). Also, lower resolutions are useful for scores or other things and can speed up CPU and for switching windows in and out of graphics screens. And how are GTIA modes inferior to your modes. Don't say anything biased now-- I just presented proof of imagery in front of your eyes. yeah video titling and presentation scrollers is what every kid wanted fact is both machines were used for gaming, and the c64 had the better technology for that. ton of cpu cycles to do scrolling? indeed, but a8 needs 50 tons of cycles to make sprites. and how many machines had GTIA? dont think those modes were used for other than showing off with the clown picture. while c64 modes were all utilized, and on the spot for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Atari always use his CPU with any mode graphics created (ok, except with a complete blank screen, useful to accelerate calculations) well, we all know what I mean. so stop pretending you dont. thanks. well or maybe not. now try to dissect this definition: "built in mode is one which doesnt uses the cpu for timed register changes in synch with the rasterbeam to better the picture." good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 You have been insulting me regarding using joystick I/O ever since you joined atariage. You did say Atari palette is subjective and that was one reason why I stated not to trust you since that's just such a simple truth... yeah. whats up with the joystick I/O ? it turned out that c64's joyport is 8bit wide just like atari's. So when I say the liking of a palette is subjective, thats unfair ? its sure not an objective thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 (edited) I have used what the a8 has to offer without extra cpu help. and that is that. Converting an already restricted C64 image to an (restricted in a different way) atari image is pretty pointless... It will show 'worst of both worlds' Edited April 17, 2009 by roland p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 well... did I say that I mix every of the available modes? come on... look f.e. this: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=4420 easy to do on A8... but I guess not possible on C64... I am nearly sure, doesnt matter 16 colour... (how many of the c64 games do actually scroll colour ram $d800, too??? how many?) look... http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=5488 easy done with the dlist and antic... ok... tried it with sprite overlays but well... I found it better to use antic mode 6... so where is your "using modes which are inferior"? or TMR's Reaxion: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=5093 Look what he has done in the main menu... using "inferior" gfx modes??? come on... we are not so biased like you might think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 or again... using inferior gfx modes: Rainbow Walker: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=2835 Dimension X: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=1735 Star Raiders II: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=3063 International Karate: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=4616 Pastfinder: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=2639 M.U.L.E. http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=4190 Flowers Mania http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=5288 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 well... did I say that I mix every of the available modes? come on... look f.e. this: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=4420 easy to do on A8... but I guess not possible on C64... I am nearly sure, doesnt matter 16 colour... (how many of the c64 games do actually scroll colour ram $d800, too??? how many?) look... http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=5488 easy done with the dlist and antic... ok... tried it with sprite overlays but well... I found it better to use antic mode 6... so where is your "using modes which are inferior"? or TMR's Reaxion: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=5093 Look what he has done in the main menu... using "inferior" gfx modes??? come on... we are not so biased like you might think... 1st game: you mean splitscreen scrolling? there are games doing that on the c64 too. 2nd game: whats the specialty here? I guess its a charmode screen with some players doing the ship. 3rd game: c64 could color those blocks more freely. a8 has to use various charsets, and gprior stuff with cpu intervention and still lagging behind. YOU are not so biased, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Wolfram...you said what is usefull in mixing inferior gfx modes... and I tried to say... we can use the gfx modes visely... ok... Fire up Schreckenstein... play it! it has 50 Hz overscan splitscreen and mixing gfx modes (the score panel f.e.). and no flickering of rasterlines nor many "empty scanlines" between to trigger "Rasterinterrupts". Ah...and of course overscan... Venus... I am using overscan plus "inferior" gfx mode 6 for the 2 scorepanels which were a piece of cake... no "rasterinterrupts" to split modes... you can not do mode 6 without using charsets for double the width... Reaxion... did you fire up the game? look in the main menu... TMR mixes up different modes here...all inferior? well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 and you did not answer my question... how many games actually scroll the colour ram, too??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 and you did not answer my question... how many games actually scroll the colour ram, too??? you cant possibly expect me to know that number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Atari always use his CPU with any mode graphics created (ok, except with a complete blank screen, useful to accelerate calculations) well, we all know what I mean. so stop pretending you dont. thanks. well or maybe not. now try to dissect this definition: "built in mode is one which doesnt uses the cpu for timed register changes in synch with the rasterbeam to better the picture." good luck Basic gfxs ? mmm... what insane... well i don't know who had the idea, but here is it: Still Atari can do something that C64 can do it on this basic modes. 5 colors 160x200 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Wolfram...you said what is usefull in mixing inferior gfx modes... and I tried to say... we can use the gfx modes visely... ok... Fire up Schreckenstein... play it! it has 50 Hz overscan splitscreen and mixing gfx modes (the score panel f.e.). and no flickering of rasterlines nor many "empty scanlines" between to trigger "Rasterinterrupts". Ah...and of course overscan... Venus... I am using overscan plus "inferior" gfx mode 6 for the 2 scorepanels which were a piece of cake... no "rasterinterrupts" to split modes... you can not do mode 6 without using charsets for double the width... Reaxion... did you fire up the game? look in the main menu... TMR mixes up different modes here...all inferior? well... oh, overscan. didnt notice it. I mean really. yes the c64 would need to use empty scanlines, yes c64 has no overscan. can show a great bunch of sprite over nicely colored screens instead. which one is more important do you think? no empty scanlines when splitscreen&overscan vs quite freely colored screens with a lot of HW sprites ? btw that flower game looked nice. something you expect on a c64 normally but not from an a8. sorry too lazy now to dl&learn how to use a8 emu now, I cant check reaxion intro screen now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 The problem with this discussion is that atari lovers try to convince commodore lovers. That is not going to work, not now and not tomorrow. It is (in my point of view) impossible to say which system is better. For me personal the atari 8bit is the absolute winner. No chance for C64. But hey... that is because I really like my atari 8bit. I also like my atari 8bit more than I like my iMac and iBook (apple). Does this mean that my atari 8bit is better... well I think not, but it has all to do with adoration. Both systems C64/Atari 8bit are 8bit systems from the past, and they both have their limitations. From whatever I know from it, is that a C64 graphics system is easier to program, but due to that it also has limits. Atari is and always have been very flexible in it's possibilities. The only problem is that you have to built lots of things in your code to realise what you want. So yes: atari can do much more than commodore, but it takes also ( a lot) cpu time. It's just like the SID. When you are satisfied with that sound, and you don't want anything else, I think it is better than pokey. But...... pokey can do so much more, as long as you know how to program/use it. So pokey is the winner for me. Anyway. We can talk about this for ages, but it won't come to anything. For me: Atari is the best! Now, yesterday AND tomorrow! Greetz Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Atari always use his CPU with any mode graphics created (ok, except with a complete blank screen, useful to accelerate calculations) well, we all know what I mean. so stop pretending you dont. thanks. well or maybe not. now try to dissect this definition: "built in mode is one which doesnt uses the cpu for timed register changes in synch with the rasterbeam to better the picture." good luck Basic gfxs ? mmm... what insane... well i don't know who had the idea, but here is it: Still Atari can do something that C64 can do it on this basic modes. 5 colors 160x200 9 colors 160x200 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 The problem with this discussion is that atari lovers try to convince commodore lovers. That is not going to work, not now and not tomorrow. It is (in my point of view) impossible to say which system is better. For me personal the atari 8bit is the absolute winner. No chance for C64. But hey... that is because I really like my atari 8bit. I also like my atari 8bit more than I like my iMac and iBook (apple). Does this mean that my atari 8bit is better... well I think not, but it has all to do with adoration. Both systems C64/Atari 8bit are 8bit systems from the past, and they both have their limitations. From whatever I know from it, is that a C64 graphics system is easier to program, but due to that it also has limits. Atari is and always have been very flexible in it's possibilities. The only problem is that you have to built lots of things in your code to realise what you want. So yes: atari can do much more than commodore, but it takes also ( a lot) cpu time. It's just like the SID. When you are satisfied with that sound, and you don't want anything else, I think it is better than pokey. But...... pokey can do so much more, as long as you know how to program/use it. So pokey is the winner for me. Anyway. We can talk about this for ages, but it won't come to anything. For me: Atari is the best! Now, yesterday AND tomorrow! Greetz Marius pokey... digis can be better, but digi replay freq is a CPU thing and not a property of Pokey,appart from that SID wins hands down. gfx... the c64 cpu can sit idle, while the a8 throwing all cpu and sprites on a screen will be not able to catch up with the picture quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Wolfram...you said what is usefull in mixing inferior gfx modes... and I tried to say... we can use the gfx modes visely... ok... Fire up Schreckenstein... play it! it has 50 Hz overscan splitscreen and mixing gfx modes (the score panel f.e.). and no flickering of rasterlines nor many "empty scanlines" between to trigger "Rasterinterrupts". Ah...and of course overscan... Venus... I am using overscan plus "inferior" gfx mode 6 for the 2 scorepanels which were a piece of cake... no "rasterinterrupts" to split modes... you can not do mode 6 without using charsets for double the width... Reaxion... did you fire up the game? look in the main menu... TMR mixes up different modes here...all inferior? well... oh, overscan. didnt notice it. I mean really. yes the c64 would need to use empty scanlines, yes c64 has no overscan. can show a great bunch of sprite over nicely colored screens instead. which one is more important do you think? no empty scanlines when splitscreen&overscan vs quite freely colored screens with a lot of HW sprites ? btw that flower game looked nice. something you expect on a c64 normally but not from an a8. sorry too lazy now to dl&learn how to use a8 emu now, I cant check reaxion intro screen now. well...if you are too lazy...I give you another advice... when in Atari800win checking for games...press F8 for the monitor and type DLIST to see how the coders use "inferior" built in modes... you will be suprised... and you have to keep an eye on the details. not just bashing... that's why I do not enter the c64 ring on lemon64 saying you are all bunch of idiots with your built in modes... Graham and others would kick my ass... but... Graham from Oxyron even had codes stuff (unreleased yet but I have seen it)... re: scrolling colour ram well... you are bashing A8 for having only "4 colour" (actually sometimes 5 colour which you can not do on c64) charmode scrolling but look on your own games...that's what I mentioned... only fraction of your superior scrolling games do actually scroll the colour ram? so... how many 16 colour scrolling games are available? I bet not many... even you have sprites... and of course you might do the Atari ST/Spectrum "trick" reduce the scrolling window with raster interrupts... so you don't need to move around the vram & colour ram for whole screen... and as Atariski mentioned several times...our scrolling registers are 32 colour clocks large...so in charmode we can scroll 8 chars to left/right without moving any data around... this gives you more time to feed the scrolling buffer? sometimes it reminds me when I was trying to complain that the ST can hardware softscroll, too... with the Sync scroll method... (Enchanted Land is using it... f.e.) but only less than 10 games use that method? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 The problem with this discussion is that atari lovers try to convince commodore lovers. That is not going to work, not now and not tomorrow. It is (in my point of view) impossible to say which system is better. For me personal the atari 8bit is the absolute winner. No chance for C64. But hey... that is because I really like my atari 8bit. I also like my atari 8bit more than I like my iMac and iBook (apple). Does this mean that my atari 8bit is better... well I think not, but it has all to do with adoration. Both systems C64/Atari 8bit are 8bit systems from the past, and they both have their limitations. From whatever I know from it, is that a C64 graphics system is easier to program, but due to that it also has limits. Atari is and always have been very flexible in it's possibilities. The only problem is that you have to built lots of things in your code to realise what you want. So yes: atari can do much more than commodore, but it takes also ( a lot) cpu time. It's just like the SID. When you are satisfied with that sound, and you don't want anything else, I think it is better than pokey. But...... pokey can do so much more, as long as you know how to program/use it. So pokey is the winner for me. Anyway. We can talk about this for ages, but it won't come to anything. For me: Atari is the best! Now, yesterday AND tomorrow! Greetz Marius pokey... digis can be better, but digi replay freq is a CPU thing and not a property of Pokey,appart from that SID wins hands down. gfx... the c64 cpu can sit idle, while the a8 throwing all cpu and sprites on a screen will be not able to catch up with the picture quality. ok.... please stop saying ALL cpu time... for the "overlayed" DLI G2F-style of gfx we would still have the whole VBL time left to do things... so start coding first and then come back... sorry...now I am getting into this fighting mode which I don't wanted to be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 well...if you are too lazy...I give you another advice... when in Atari800win checking for games...press F8 for the monitor and type DLIST to see how the coders use "inferior" built in modes... you will be suprised... and you have to keep an eye on the details. not just bashing... that's why I do not enter the c64 ring on lemon64 saying you are all bunch of idiots with your built in modes... Graham and others would kick my ass... but... Graham from Oxyron even had codes stuff (unreleased yet but I have seen it)... re: scrolling colour ram well... you are bashing A8 for having only "4 colour" (actually sometimes 5 colour which you can not do on c64) charmode scrolling but look on your own games...that's what I mentioned... only fraction of your superior scrolling games do actually scroll the colour ram? so... how many 16 colour scrolling games are available? I bet not many... even you have sprites... and of course you might do the Atari ST/Spectrum "trick" reduce the scrolling window with raster interrupts... so you don't need to move around the vram & colour ram for whole screen... and as Atariski mentioned several times...our scrolling registers are 32 colour clocks large...so in charmode we can scroll 8 chars to left/right without moving any data around... this gives you more time to feed the scrolling buffer? sometimes it reminds me when I was trying to complain that the ST can hardware softscroll, too... with the Sync scroll method... (Enchanted Land is using it... f.e.) but only less than 10 games use that method? yes, details are important... color ram scroll: the color ram is always there, not just only when you do a scrolling game. lets see lemon64 toplist: - pirates, no colorscroll, but still gfx a8 would not do in the same time without g2f - zak mckracken, colorscroll - maniac mansion, colorscroll - last ninja2 dynamicly drawn colored stills a8 cant do. so wether it scrolls or not its there. its an advantage. A8 scrolling HW is awesome. The letdown is that c64 can compensate for that with cpu and still keep 50fps, while A8 cant keep up with that, if the c64 is pushed more heavily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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