youki Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 [You are missing a bigger point in the slow A8 development - Atari held back releasing tech specs for the computer. Commodore was much more open day 1 with the C64. Once info leaked about the 800 things started to improve, but that took a few years. I agree, it is what i mean when i wrote : " because the "killer" features was not enough accessible/documented at this time." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Steve....perhaps you can give us those very two games that are 'impossible' to do on an A8 Nope not my fight - I was just pointing out that there are LOTS of people here telling each other this or that is possible - I have PROVEN software that demonstrates what I know, so to those saying so-and-so is possible I say - SHOW ME, not that I would do it for them... Namely Turrican and Giana Sisters....now that would make me wet my pants moreso then you trying to ressurect pacland, menace or beast (good games way back when but hardly worth ressurecting) I never suggested resurrecting those old games - I have no idea where you picked up that notion... I have no interest in them, save to demonstrate I have been more active than many here, they are in my past... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 250! I'll tell ya one thing Commodore did to piss me off... I was trying to fix a 64 motherboard and I discovered the hard way that they'd switched the positions of 2 IC's between revs. Although the boards looked almost identical, putting the IC's in the same positions as on another board caused very bad things to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 aehm.... c64 was hard to program? in basic? aehm.... please... look in the documentation which comes with the vic-20 and c64... and then read the stuff you got when buying an 800 xl... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 but maybe thinking... your documentation is full of pokes... and not drawto, position, graphics, sound basic tokes... which means that once realised... a small step towards assembler... LDA/STA.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 but maybe thinking... your documentation is full of pokes... and not drawto, position, graphics, sound basic tokes... which means that once realised... a small step towards assembler... LDA/STA.... BASIC had the commands but even in ASM you can call the OS since it supports the drawto, position, and standard graphics modes using CIO calls. So for non-time critical stuff, you have a high level interface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 what ment with my example is... that on commie you quickly need assembler to achieve something good while on A8 you could remain long in the "basic"-loop... while on c64 you quickly hit assembler... maybe that's a reason that a lot more guys went straight to assembler while we atarians stood in the basic corner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 what ment with my example is... that on commie you quickly need assembler to achieve something good while on A8 you could remain long in the "basic"-loop... while on c64 you quickly hit assembler... maybe that's a reason that a lot more guys went straight to assembler while we atarians stood in the basic corner... I guess that was good at that time to attract non-technical people. However, if they had known at that time Atari would go bankrupt, they would have forced people to use ASM and use GPRIOR mode 0, GTIA modes with kernels and cycle exact POKEY sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Early on, Atari BASIC came with a full manual in a binder. Once BASIC was built-in, the documentation was reduced to a small booklet. It didn't tell you much about the real innards of the machine, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 ...More GOOD game = More User = More money for the developers = even More GOOD game A8 have been released in 79 .. Developper didnt manage to really exploit the machine to produce killer game. they were stucked on "out of the box" feature , they didn't go further. The result are average quality games. for the C64, the "out of the box" feature were better and easly exploitable, so with no effort you could manage to make a a relatvly good game. The good game helped to sell the machine , as the machine sold well, more developper comes to the machine, more game were produced , and as if you want sell your game , your game must be better than competitor game , developper invest time in the machine, find new techniques and games becomes better and better. This chain reaction didn't occurs on the A8 , because the "killer" features was not enough accessible/documented at this time. ... That is exactly what I wanted to say ! I guess that was good at that time to attract non-technical people. However, if they had known at that time Atari would go bankrupt, they would have forced people to use ASM and use GPRIOR mode 0, GTIA modes with kernels and cycle exact POKEY sounds. but maybe thinking... your documentation is full of pokes... and not drawto, position, graphics, sound basic tokes... which means that once realised... a small step towards assembler... LDA/STA.... I first learned 6502 assembler from a book, back in 1985. and a year later I got my first computer Commodore 128 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Early on, Atari BASIC came with a full manual in a binder. Once BASIC was built-in, the documentation was reduced to a small booklet. It didn't tell you much about the real innards of the machine, though. The manual was the BASIC Reference Manual, clearly not a guide to learning BASIC. The Commodores did come with **excellent** manuals. They pretty much give a nice introduction with very short (a few BASIC lines) examples, and then teach you how to program in BASIC. I was impressed. Both the VIC-20 and the 64 manuals are totally excellent; they are as good as an intro to BASIC book you'd have to buy for the Atari. Interestingly, it is the Tramiel XE that came with a more substantial manual. The 130XE attempts to teach BASIC to a degree; it is certainly leaps ahead of 400/800/XL manuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Early on, Atari BASIC came with a full manual in a binder. Once BASIC was built-in, the documentation was reduced to a small booklet. It didn't tell you much about the real innards of the machine, though. The manual was the BASIC Reference Manual, clearly not a guide to learning BASIC. The Commodores did come with **excellent** manuals. They pretty much give a nice introduction with very short (a few BASIC lines) examples, and then teach you how to program in BASIC. I was impressed. Both the VIC-20 and the 64 manuals are totally excellent; they are as good as an intro to BASIC book you'd have to buy for the Atari. Interestingly, it is the Tramiel XE that came with a more substantial manual. The 130XE attempts to teach BASIC to a degree; it is certainly leaps ahead of 400/800/XL manuals. I got some BASIC book with the Atari 800 that actually was like a tutorial -- it had examples of how to write code and what it meant. I also got the "Invitation to Programming" Cassettes with my system which had the voice sync-up with the program. Space Invaders also came on cassette-- that may explain one reason why they try to reduce code size to a minimum and not exploit all the hardware features of the A8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 What games then steve were you thinking of restarting....perhaps a reworked version of Z-Force which i think you had something to do with but looking a bit more r-type ish Alternately a proper conversion of Lemmings (the psygnosis jobbie) or a colour version of gauntlet or Gauntlet II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvas Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 FYI: Download the file and rename it to *.xex: http://atariarea.krap.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6938 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 FYI: Download the file and rename it to *.xex: http://atariarea.krap.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6938 Still a tech demo, showing the possible. Interesting step, but far away from a "game". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Early on, Atari BASIC came with a full manual in a binder. Once BASIC was built-in, the documentation was reduced to a small booklet. It didn't tell you much about the real innards of the machine, though. The manual was the BASIC Reference Manual, clearly not a guide to learning BASIC. ... Just found the book I got with my computer on the web (1979 edition): http://www.atariarchives.org/basic/index.php It shows you how to get an error in BASIC on page 13. For higher advanced topics beyond the scope of most of us here, here's how to play musical notes in BASIC: http://www.atariarchives.org/basic/showpage.php?page=301 Don't know if that's "Mary had a little lamb", but it seems that to play the C note in three different octaves simultaneously you would do: Sound 0,31,10,8:Sound 1,61,10,8:Sound 2,122,10,8 Note this edition is © 1979 and targets Atari 400 and Atari 800. Doesn't this imply these machines must have been available in some form earlier than 1979 since books and machines were already available on it in 1979? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Early on, Atari BASIC came with a full manual in a binder. Once BASIC was built-in, the documentation was reduced to a small booklet. It didn't tell you much about the real innards of the machine, though. The manual was the BASIC Reference Manual, clearly not a guide to learning BASIC. ... Just found the book I got with my computer on the web (1979 edition): http://www.atariarchives.org/basic/index.php It shows you how to get an error in BASIC on page 13. For higher advanced topics beyond the scope of most of us here, here's how to play musical notes in BASIC: http://www.atariarchives.org/basic/showpage.php?page=301 Don't know if that's "Mary had a little lamb", but it seems that to play the C note in three different octaves simultaneously you would do: Sound 0,31,10,8:Sound 1,61,10,8:Sound 2,122,10,8 Note this edition is © 1979 and targets Atari 400 and Atari 800. Doesn't this imply these machines must have been available in some form earlier than 1979 since books and machines were already available on it in 1979? Yes! I love that book! That was my first book. I have it again. It didn't COME with the computer, though - it was not IN THE BOX and part of the manual. That's the only difference. The 400/800/XL manuals just had pictures of how to hook up a TV switch box, etc. The Commie manual has that, plus quite a bit of BASIC intro, as does the 130XE manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 What games then steve were you thinking of restarting....perhaps a reworked version of Z-Force which i think you had something to do with but looking a bit more r-type ish Alternately a proper conversion of Lemmings (the psygnosis jobbie) or a colour version of gauntlet or Gauntlet II Who ever said I was restarting anything? Why are you making that up, are you some kind of fantasist? And what do you mean by "Z-Force which i think you had something to do with" - of course I did it's on my website. And you know it, so why pose it as some kind of question - attention seeking? And before you make up some other junk - no I have no plans for ZF or a remake of lemmings, or a color version of Gauntlet (it already is in color)... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 And before certain people get all uppity and angry, I am only asking for clarity - I have several old projects I am looking to resurrect and making them better would be great... sTeVE Steve - people are asking about what project you might be working on based upon this quote you left in a prior msg (post 6204 or something) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Purely personal work I am afraid - nothing for publication... Sorry for any misunderstanding - I was looking at the techniques being described and trying to imagine how I might apply them is all - as I .approach brushing up my 6502 sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 What games then steve were you thinking of restarting....perhaps a reworked version of Z-Force which i think you had something to do with but looking a bit more r-type ish Alternately a proper conversion of Lemmings (the psygnosis jobbie) or a colour version of gauntlet or Gauntlet II Who ever said I was restarting anything? Why are you making that up, are you some kind of fantasist? And what do you mean by "Z-Force which i think you had something to do with" - of course I did it's on my website. And you know it, so why pose it as some kind of question - attention seeking? And before you make up some other junk - no I have no plans for ZF or a remake of lemmings, or a color version of Gauntlet (it already is in color)... sTeVE Firstly, i did'nt even know you had a website as I only remember the game from a collection of A8 games i got from some A8 games site, and was only going by the text in the game itself I'd like to know what version of gauntlet you were playing, i just remember the A8 version having very little in the way of colour in it Perhapr's 'restarting' was the wrong word, perhaps i was supposed to say ressurecting, even still what's you bloody problem Who said anything about making anything up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 FYI: Download the file and rename it to *.xex: http://atariarea.krap.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6938 Thats good work Love the scroll (except top and bottom but I guess that is fixable...). Background is excellent... Good choice of colors... Player sprite is OK. Buletts also seem ok... Enemies individually are ok. They used only PMG for moving objects.... Maybe usable, but flickering... hmmm.... I would try to use software sprites... And yeah, music is great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 250! I'll tell ya one thing Commodore did to piss me off... I was trying to fix a 64 motherboard and I discovered the hard way that they'd switched the positions of 2 IC's between revs. Although the boards looked almost identical, putting the IC's in the same positions as on another board caused very bad things to happen. I have a C64 that boots up to "out of memory", but there's no socketed chips on this one to remove/replace to try to narrow down the problem. I think I have used up all the memory for good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Gauntlet - color I think you will agree.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Early on, Atari BASIC came with a full manual in a binder. Once BASIC was built-in, the documentation was reduced to a small booklet. It didn't tell you much about the real innards of the machine, though. The manual was the BASIC Reference Manual, clearly not a guide to learning BASIC. ... Just found the book I got with my computer on the web (1979 edition): http://www.atariarchives.org/basic/index.php It shows you how to get an error in BASIC on page 13. For higher advanced topics beyond the scope of most of us here, here's how to play musical notes in BASIC: http://www.atariarchives.org/basic/showpage.php?page=301 Don't know if that's "Mary had a little lamb", but it seems that to play the C note in three different octaves simultaneously you would do: Sound 0,31,10,8:Sound 1,61,10,8:Sound 2,122,10,8 Note this edition is © 1979 and targets Atari 400 and Atari 800. Doesn't this imply these machines must have been available in some form earlier than 1979 since books and machines were already available on it in 1979? Yes! I love that book! That was my first book. I have it again. It didn't COME with the computer, though - it was not IN THE BOX and part of the manual. That's the only difference. The 400/800/XL manuals just had pictures of how to hook up a TV switch box, etc. The Commie manual has that, plus quite a bit of BASIC intro, as does the 130XE manual. It was in the box with my computer-- original Atari 800. I think they sold them as Education Kits or Programming Kits w/some machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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