atariksi Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 ...Probably Pms at Quaduple Lenght. José Pereira. You shouldn't dismiss 4X zoom on sprites to be useless: it helps cover the entire screen with an overlay without using CPU cycles or multiplexing engines. And if you use GPRIOR mode 0, you get a better selection of colors as every 4*1 area can take on original PF0, PF1, PF2 or ORed with with a player color or ORed with ORed players in multicolor mode. Now if you multiplex the players horizontally in 4X zoom, then you have each 4*1 having many options for colors in 160*200 mode. And selection of colors in 8*1 in 320*200 mode. I guess you could also use 160*200*5 if you don't mind that 1 of 8 lines has no capability to horizontally multiplex sprites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) My point is some games don't need that many different colors but just accurate colors where the bigger the palette the better. Correct... I really hated some of commodores 16 colors. Black, White, three Greys, Blue, Light blue, light red, light brown, cyan were ok... But Red, Dark Brown, Yellow and both green colors ??? aaarghhh.... Why didn't they made palette to choose 16 colors from ??? (I know they are hardware wired inside VIC chip but life would be so much nicer if they did it...) I prefer having linear graphics modes and colors being available where needed rather than put into 4*8 or 8*8 cells. The latter is just extension of text mode. "being available where needed " On C64 I can have my colors roughly where I need them, anywhere on screen... On Atari I can have them verticaly exactly where I need them,but horizontaly I can't get them in the right place, they are always available only on one part of screen.... And selection of colors in 8*1 in 320*200 mode. I guess you could also use 160*200*5 if you don't mind that 1 of 8 lines has no capability to horizontally multiplex sprites. If you are talking about GPRIOR ored players over playfields I don't think 5 quadruple players are not such a good feature ... they let me improve colors in 32 pixels range... (on a 160 wide screen) that is five big horizontal regions with different colors in one scanline.... And one pixel that can be turned on or off is good for effects in blocky puzzle games... but for arcade game? And you are left with only software sprites for action.... If I use DLIs It means I get a "grid" of 5x200 instead of 40x25.... If you ask me I'll rather have my 40 regions on one line and satisfy with 25 verticaly... And if you thought about multiplexing players horizontaly to improve colors.... I'll wait till a day that someone smarter than me makes something usefull with that.... And if you thought about interlacing GTIA modes with standard resolutions.... Well, I'll wait till my sio2pc cable arrives and then see on real TV why are you guys talking so much about it... On emulator it doesn't look so impresive... ----------------------------------------------- Is there a game that used 5 quadruple players over screen ? Edited June 23, 2009 by popmilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) My point is some games don't need that many different colors but just accurate colors where the bigger the palette the better. Correct... I really hated some of commodores 16 colors. Black, White, three Greys, Blue, Light blue, light red, light brown, cyan were ok... But Red, Dark Brown, Yellow and both green colors ??? aaarghhh.... The colours were right chosen for the textmode and the needed colours for enhancing written text. But, for graphics, well, eye cancer ... It also looks like "candy" in some games, where the graphician had chosen to use the grey tones and enhance the scene with some colours here and there. Or the different colours were "broken" with the grey tones... But, by missing several luminances on the colours, they had to make compromises, which makes most "graphics" result in eye cancer fellings also: http://images.nintendolife.com/screenshots/13013/large.jpg On C64 I can have my colors roughly where I need them, anywhere on screen...On Atari I can have them verticaly exactly where I need them,but horizontaly I can't get them in the right place, they are always available only on one part of screen.... You have the ability of using colour clusters, which is a fair thing, compared to the colour count of the C64 at all. Edited June 23, 2009 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R6502A Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Is there a game that used 5 quadruple players over screen ? It looks like Miner 2049er use this technique for the platforms. Although I haven't checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 no.no.... players are used for player and nasties plus cannon etc... but not for the platforms.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) Its Antic 4 AFAIK - the enemy characters move in 4 pixel jumps It also fails to use the 5th color in the main play area - so it looks less than it could IMHO - I think 5 different colors rather than 3 shades plus black would have looked more authentic. The C64 was color limited, but a bit closer to the arcade. I found this about Gauntlet back on page 251 of this thread and I've been thinking what could be done to make a better Gauntlet. I am going to list my solutions in the VBXE2 thread. http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142283 (page 11) Edited June 23, 2009 by peteym5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 if I roll this thread over 255 pages will it crash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyace Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 255 pages is apt for an 8 bit discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Maybe the thread should be locked just before page 256 so we never know . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyace Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 When it gets to page 256 it will mutate into a ST vs Amiga discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 And hopefully not a Jaguar vs the rest of the world thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Wot? No Acorn Archimedes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Or a Jag vs Oric Atmos thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 if I roll this thread over 255 pages will it crash? Nah, we'll all just start over rehashing the same old arguments....oh, wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 When it gets to page 256 it will mutate into a ST vs Amiga discussion There is still space left. Don't forget , we have a 16 bit Adress Counter, resulting in 65536 pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 When it gets to page 256 it will mutate into a ST vs Amiga discussion There is still space left. Don't forget , we have a 16 bit Adress Counter, resulting in 65536 pages. Plus, Claus Bucholz is on here, and he'll come up with some bank switching scheme that will take us to 262,144 pages. However, there may not be an Antic Enhanced Mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R6502A Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) When it gets to page 256 it will mutate into a ST vs Amiga discussion There is still space left. Don't forget , we have a 16 bit Adress Counter, resulting in 65536 pages. 65536 bytes = 256 pages So, we're not even at page 1 yet? Edited June 24, 2009 by R6502A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyace Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I wonder how quickly the next 65280 pages of this topic will take Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I wonder how quickly the next 65280 pages of this topic will take Guess that depends on how soon someone new discovers the thread (or stirs the pot ) Stephen Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 If it goes to 256, a rift will open in the time-space continuum and everyone on this thread will be sent back to the early 1980's. I maintain that the Commodore 64 was not a bad computer, but the problem was Commodore under Jack Tremail, then later taking over Atari. Commodore should have just stuck with the 64 as the base 8-bit computer and release several compatible models afterward. Should not have gone with the +4 (-60) and the 16 (as it was). Could have gone with a 16k version with open sockets for ram. I had a Vic-20, but was disappointed when Commodore declared it obsolete so fast and jumped over to the 64. Even when they went to the Amiga, they could have had a built in emulator to run the existing large software library. Atari was better at keeping a central base design for the 8-bit was only having some operating system incompatibility between the 800 & 800XL and they even worked around it. The last 8-bit models, XEs could be made to run 400/800 software. The only one that did better was the DOS/Windows PC that could be made to run software written for the first 8088 XTs. I admit Atari made the 5200 flop for its compatibility issues. Atari ST is a different story, but do believe fairly early in its run, there was an emulator for the 8-bit software available. The bottom line people are not going to invest in a new computer and be expected to buy all new software for it. More common standard was needed and that being the PC IBM created. I am not going to comment on all the blunders Microsoft did because its not the fault of the design of the PC. When it comes to the 8-bit verses the 64, Atari beats it for speed and color, but the 64 with the color map & extra sprites allow its 16 colors palette to utilized. The 64 does have a few better looking games than their A8 counterpart. That also depends on how the programmer uses the screen graphics. Many of the advance programmers on here say those 8-bit games could be made to look as good as the C64 counterpart. Now we know how to do stuff like multicolor, multiplexing player/missile routines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I still say that you have to look at the chipsets as being three years apart. The Atari has very weak 320 support and was never designed for games with a lot of multi-color objects. However, the Atari was a very elegant design that killed everything available in 1979-80 and it can be pushed to do some amazing things. I have a 64 set up and I like it too. Some stuff on it looks almost 16-bit, but the Atari is my favorite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 ...On C64 I can have my colors roughly where I need them, anywhere on screen... On Atari I can have them verticaly exactly where I need them,but horizontaly I can't get them in the right place, they are always available only on one part of screen.... ... To spread the colors out in GPRIOR mode 0 is why I was presenting this 4X zoomed mode... And selection of colors in 8*1 in 320*200 mode. I guess you could also use 160*200*5 if you don't mind that 1 of 8 lines has no capability to horizontally multiplex sprites. >If you are talking about GPRIOR ored players over playfields I don't think 5 quadruple players are not such a good feature ... >they let me improve colors in 32 pixels range... (on a 160 wide screen) Well, in 160*200, you get a choice of colors in every 4*1. Without using sprite multiplexing horizontally, you can enable either original PF0, PF1, PF2, PF3 or you can get ORed version of PF0/PF1 or PF2/PF3 in every 4*1. On players 0/1 and missiles 0/1, you get ORed version of PF0/PF1 and on players 2/3 and missiles 2/3, you get ORed version of PF2/PF3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyace Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 The colours were right chosen for the textmode and the needed colours for enhancing written text.But, for graphics, well, eye cancer ... It also looks like "candy" in some games, where the graphician had chosen to use the grey tones and enhance the scene with some colours here and there. Or the different colours were "broken" with the grey tones... But, by missing several luminances on the colours, they had to make compromises, which makes most "graphics" result in eye cancer fellings also: Do you really think the stormlord picture looks terrible? There isn't much that matches it on the A8 in terms of game graphics. Apart from games that used gradients for sky/floor ( where the Atari colour range was really shown well ) most games looked bland because of the 4/5 colour limitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 IMHO that stormlord shot is pretty good, despite the lamentable color palette. Lots of color, nice mix of hi-res and 160-res elements - plus I seem to remember it played pretty well sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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