+MrFish Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Can anyone name some of the Atari games that use filled vector 3d graphics ? So, no Eidolon, rescue on fractalus and such... full 3d polygon drawing game.... I know Numen and vector demos... but is there a game ? Midi Maze... have a nice day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Are you telling me that in almost three decades there hasn't been a game with 3d filled polygons ?Freescape, Space Rogue, 3d pool,stunt car racer ... None of these have their equivalent on Atari ? About the time 3D games were becoming popular most software companies were dropping A8 support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Are you telling me that in almost three decades there hasn't been a game with 3d filled polygons ?Freescape, Space Rogue, 3d pool,stunt car racer ... None of these have their equivalent on Atari ? About the time 3D games were becoming popular most software companies were dropping A8 support. The trouble is the old 8-bit machines (all of them!) were not really up to doing solid 3D polygon games. Even the standard ST/Amiga is borderline and the SNES classic StarWing was using a highly optimized DSP in the cartridge akin to a 50mhz 030 or something. What's also interesting is that apart from the C128 and the BBC Micro series there is no machine that actually has a Z80 processor AND custom hardware for any kind of graphics. And even those two machines can't actually use their custom hardware AND the Z80 2nd processor together. Even wireframe games in Hi-Res like 3D Starstrike or Starion running on the Speccy's Z80 would be near impossible to replicate. Hell even Starglider looks (but not sounds) ok on the Spectrum. You can't substitute raw CPU calculating grunt with any 8 or 16 bit computers custom hardware. I'm not sure how Mr Micro used the blitter to make the Amiga version of Elite to run slightly faster than the ST version (and it is the only game that managed to be faster of its type on either) but I would suspect bad coding in the ST version somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam242 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 let's not forget Capture the Flag... from 1983! Can anyone name some of the Atari games that use filled vector 3d graphics ? So, no Eidolon, rescue on fractalus and such... full 3d polygon drawing game.... I know Numen and vector demos... but is there a game ? Midi Maze... have a nice day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Amiga Blitter can draw lines... that's why some of the 3d games are faster on Amiga or have more colours compared to the ST version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 The logical thing to do on Amiga games would be to split the workload between CPU and Blitter. Of course, you'd need to ensure they didn't collide e.g. two intersecting lines being drawn at once could easily get corruption happening. In the end, the extra processing to ensure stuff like that didn't happen would probably take a fair bit of the advantage away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyace Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 also you can reduce the number of bitplanes to 3 on the Amiga easily - and use h/w sprites for surroundings / reticles etc... , 8 colours is fine for solid 3d without lighting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poison Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I saw I think the best C64demo calle Edge of Disagree year 2008 from pouet.net . I dont understand to this very positive rating. Demo is very boring and efect arent better than in numen from 2002!! Is the better demo exist? If is this demo the best what can C64 do, C64 is computer for lamers;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Are you telling me that in almost three decades there hasn't been a game with 3d filled polygons ?Freescape, Space Rogue, 3d pool,stunt car racer ... None of these have their equivalent on Atari ? About the time 3D games were becoming popular most software companies were dropping A8 support. The trouble is the old 8-bit machines (all of them!) were not really up to doing solid 3D polygon games. Even the standard ST/Amiga is borderline and the SNES classic StarWing was using a highly optimized DSP in the cartridge akin to a 50mhz 030 or something. What's also interesting is that apart from the C128 and the BBC Micro series there is no machine that actually has a Z80 processor AND custom hardware for any kind of graphics. And even those two machines can't actually use their custom hardware AND the Z80 2nd processor together. ... Sort of like earlier PET machines that had two processors like 6800 and 6502 but you had to boot up in one or the other mode and can't use both together. >Even wireframe games in Hi-Res like 3D Starstrike or Starion running on the Speccy's Z80 would be near impossible to replicate. Hell even Starglider looks (but not sounds) ok on the Spectrum. You can't substitute raw CPU calculating grunt with any 8 or 16 bit computers custom hardware. I'm not sure how Mr Micro used the blitter to make the Amiga version of Elite to run slightly faster than the ST version (and it is the only game that managed to be faster of its type on either) but I would suspect bad coding in the ST version somewhere. Extra graphics hardware always helps if not in calculations in helping render/replicate pixels. Chunky mode is usually easier, linear graphics vs. char mode graphics, video memory pointers vs. fixed memory locations, bitplane flexibility vs. fixed bitplaning, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I saw I think the best C64demo calle Edge of Disagree year 2008 from pouet.net . I dont understand to this very positive rating. Demo is very boring and efect arent better than in numen from 2002!! Is the better demo exist? If is this demo the best what can C64 do, C64 is computer for lamers;-) Imho, it was more of a "breath of fresh air" than a revolution.... There are some great tech parts, but it gain such a good reputation because of a combined value of all those parts put together... music, images, transitions... If numen is the best what Atari800 can do, Atari800 is computer for lamers There is a simple solution (as always)... we should make new better demos, best so far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 The logical thing to do on Amiga games would be to split the workload between CPU and Blitter. Of course, you'd need to ensure they didn't collide e.g. two intersecting lines being drawn at once could easily get corruption happening. In the end, the extra processing to ensure stuff like that didn't happen would probably take a fair bit of the advantage away. But Fast Ram would be highly recommended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) I saw I think the best C64demo calle Edge of Disagree year 2008 from pouet.net . I dont understand to this very positive rating. Demo is very boring and efect arent better than in numen from 2002!! Is the better demo exist? If is this demo the best what can C64 do, C64 is computer for lamers;-) Imho, it was more of a "breath of fresh air" than a revolution.... There are some great tech parts, but it gain such a good reputation because of a combined value of all those parts put together... music, images, transitions... Yes. I'm really not a C64 fanboy, But Edge of Disgrace has some "entertaining factor" , which makes it even interesting for me. Edited June 17, 2009 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I saw I think the best C64demo calle Edge of Disagree year 2008 from pouet.net . I dont understand to this very positive rating. Demo is very boring and efect arent better than in numen from 2002!! Is the better demo exist? If is this demo the best what can C64 do, C64 is computer for lamers;-) Numen is a great demo. But it lacks in presentation. Well, it's exactly the "presentation" content that makes more out of a demo than the hardware has to offer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I saw I think the best C64demo calle Edge of Disagree year 2008 from pouet.net . I dont understand to this very positive rating. Demo is very boring and efect arent better than in numen from 2002!! Is the better demo exist? If is this demo the best what can C64 do, C64 is computer for lamers;-) Numen is a great demo. But it lacks in presentation. Well, it's exactly the "presentation" content that makes more out of a demo than the hardware has to offer... What resolution*colors is Numen using? I don't have a 320K Atari to try on, but if it's just 3D calculation tables that are using up memory perhaps, there's a way to get a simpler demo using same resolution*colors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 80x48, its ok for fullscreen demo. And you can see numen on emulator of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 well... we use a lot more different custom resolutions... details: numen.scene.pl and for a mainly "polish" demo the presentation is above average... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 and for a mainly "polish" demo the presentation is above average... Not really. Some smaller demos do better presentations. But they lack in the "FX area"... ANTIC and GTIA offer very much features to do something on the screen while the other chip changes the content. Most demos (Numen too) simply switch the whole screen, instead of using some transition FX that make the change of the screen content more fluent to the viewer. The first part of Forsaken Love shows the correct way. http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=13008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 emkay... I know but at that time I have done my best to have at least some transitions in... but you have the transitions integrated by switching portal vs fx... So... Numen does have transition and is not like fx follows fx... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 well... we use a lot more different custom resolutions... 80x48 in 3d vector part... is there a demo that draws filled 3d polygons but in some resolution with smaller pixels ? 160x192 maybe? or some finer resolution like that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) aehm... Numen vector part? after sticky man... http://numen.scene.pl/screens.html Drunk Chessboard Edited June 18, 2009 by Heaven/TQA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Drunk Chessboard I found a really nice version which seems to be recorded in 50 or 60fps here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coze Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 What's also interesting is that apart from the C128 and the BBC Micro series there is no machine that actually has a Z80 processor AND custom hardware for any kind of graphics. And even those two machines can't actually use their custom hardware AND the Z80 2nd processor together. you're forgetting Amstrad CPC plus, which was a beast. Unfortunately nobody bothered to make use of its capabilities, cause 8 bits were dead by that time. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=26 some CPC Plus demos, some of them look really amazing for an 8 bit ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvas Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The first part of Forsaken Love shows the correct way. http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=13008 Hey!!! I've never seen that before. And I love that. Thanks for the link! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youki Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 What's also interesting is that apart from the C128 and the BBC Micro series there is no machine that actually has a Z80 processor AND custom hardware for any kind of graphics. And even those two machines can't actually use their custom hardware AND the Z80 2nd processor together. you're forgetting Amstrad CPC plus, which was a beast. Unfortunately nobody bothered to make use of its capabilities, cause 8 bits were dead by that time. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=26 some CPC Plus demos, some of them look really amazing for an 8 bit ! I had already talk about CPC plus somewhere in that post. They are indeed very impressive 8bits machine looking at the hardware capabilities. Unfortunaly they cames far to late.. MSX Turbo R have also Z80 and custum hardware for graphics , they are even more impressive. But they are machine from 90's , not end of 70's /start of 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The first part of Forsaken Love shows the correct way. http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=13008 Hey!!! I've never seen that before. And I love that. Thanks for the link! Seconded! Whole lotta GTIA mode color in that demo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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