atariksi Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 It's the same with SID music. Depending on the bass sounds, most tunes sound dull, fat but dull. It is a good sound for creating deep sounds, but it lacks in "energy" for creating drums... Tunes sometimes miss voices and mostly sound "muffled" and so on.I guess, 5$ more put into the Hardware (graphics, sound, cpu) of the C64... and everything was perfect.... Same thing can be said for many machines during 8-bit Era. A simple audio chip in Apple II would have made it a better gaming/learning machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 pete, take groovies advice...don't go anywhere near the jaguar forum...that's if you plan staying around atariage Truer words have never been spoken I am now a silent Jag owner. But I spend 99.9% of my time & energy on just the 8-bit computers. Stephen Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Stephen...keep the faith...keep atari hummy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Does anybody have any views on where any titles were launched on both Atari and Commodore - and the Atari version is the better of the two? Steve No, and I doubt anyone else has anything to say on the subject. Yes, but too numerous to mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Allas did a whole bunch of them... just look for big picture comparos starting around the 20th page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Yes, but too numerous to mention Look at hte picture below.... The right side of the screen: Up to 16 colours, 3 colours for the 3D gamescreen, up to 6 calculated layers... some additional details have been build The left side of the screen: Up to 48 colours, 4 colours for the 3D gamescreen, up to 7 calculated layers.... additional details are missing.... Which one is the older machine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Maybe theres some way to sample the signal before it gets to the tv and fix it up there There is Fast microcontroller could do it... with small number of components... hardware would cost around 20-30 euros... But its easier to use Emulator and change the palette But then again, why would I do that ? Im used to those colors, and they don't bother me... I love my C64 no matter what the colors are.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 IMHO there are two kinds of comparisons: 1. Compare game that exists on more systems as they are... 2. Compare how could a game existing on one platform be made on another using methods that are known today using platforms features to maximum... At the begining of this thread there was more talk about 1st kind of comparison. And that is ok. Conclusions are mostly right... There are games that exist on A8 and C64 that are faster or better looking on A8 or the other way around... Somehow this specific "games that are better on A8 v C64" turned into "A8 v C64" And that is the second comparison... So far I haven't been convinced that there are more "win" examples on A8 side While we are on Rescue on Fractalus example: How could it look today on A8 ? would GTIA mode tricks and GPRIOR effects make any difference ? or could it be even faster ? I know it could look better and be faster on C64 using all the methods that were discoverd during years..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 While we are on Rescue on Fractalus example:How could it look today on A8 ? would GTIA mode tricks and GPRIOR effects make any difference ? or could it be even faster ? I know it could look better and be faster on C64 using all the methods that were discoverd during years..... Of course, ditto on the Atari XL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 While we are on Rescue on Fractalus example:How could it look today on A8 ? would GTIA mode tricks and GPRIOR effects make any difference ? or could it be even faster ? I know it could look better and be faster on C64 using all the methods that were discoverd during years..... Not sure what you mean with "it could look better and be faster on C64 using all the methods that were discoverd" on the C64. There is no other game on the C64 with this graphics/gamplay resolution. Other games use smaller ranges for drawing moving objects, or don't use any real rendering calculations. On the A8 the speedup simply would be there, if they decided , not to use synchronizing of the graphics to the Vertical blank. That's why both games run on C64 and A8 in 60Hz at almost the same speed. At 50Hz the C64 version is still at the same speed, and the A8 version gets slower (but still with an additonal layer and colour fading). Which is an oxymoron, because the PAL version could do more calculations per frame... but VBL makes the CPU sleeping for about 20-30% on PAL machines In fact, the C64 version is already optimised compared to the A8 version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I suspect that using any tricks on C64 to change the display window origin for RoF would be of no use. I'd be fairly sure that other than page-flipping for the game area and putting the status displays elsewhere, the game would make absolutely no use of the Atari's ability to change the screen fetch address on the fly anyway. As for speeding the game up - there would be room on both systems to unroll loops, have more table-driven stuff rather than manual calculating etc., especially given that the Atari version was geared for 48K. At the end of it all, you'd likely end up with an A8 version faster than the C64 version by at least the same percentage... and as for the 64 version, who knows, maybe they did some of the optimisations I mentioned in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 RoFl on A8 does not use any unrolled loops esp. for the drawing the mountains. so we can speed up things there. Maybe the resolution can be enhanced but I am not meaning the screen resolution but the internal resolution when f.e. turning the ship around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 ...While we are on Rescue on Fractalus example:How could it look today on A8 ? would GTIA mode tricks and GPRIOR effects make any difference ? or could it be even faster ? I know it could look better and be faster on C64 using all the methods that were discoverd during years..... Uuuuuu..... I f...d up... I knew something was wrong... I mixed up ROF and Koronis Rift... my bad Well at least on C64 enemies could be done in more detail and in higher resolution... What Im trying to say is how would those game look if they wouldn't be just straight port with copied graphics... ? Why would anyone use 4x1 pixeled sprites if he can make 2x1 pixeled (or even 1x1) sprites in same size ? In those days when they ported games on more systems it was understandable, they spared time.... Now if someone would try to make better stuff, shouldn't stick to particular resolution or layout of screen... Do what ever makes it nicer, faster, better... Be it C64 or A8.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 The sprites on the C64 version are probably where they put in the least effort. Problem is, you can pretty them up, have multiple reuse, whatever... but it won't make a bit of difference to how quick the terrain is rendered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 That rendering is the game. When the player grabs the stick and moves around, you get the sense of motion and elevation and it's just cool. Render speed at the expense of everything else is where I would go with changes to that game, if any are ever done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 ...While we are on Rescue on Fractalus example:How could it look today on A8 ? would GTIA mode tricks and GPRIOR effects make any difference ? or could it be even faster ? I know it could look better and be faster on C64 using all the methods that were discoverd during years..... Uuuuuu..... I f...d up... I knew something was wrong... I mixed up ROF and Koronis Rift... my bad And I was about Koronis Rift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 The sprites on the C64 version are probably where they put in the least effort. Problem is, you can pretty them up, have multiple reuse, whatever... but it won't make a bit of difference to how quick the terrain is rendered. Agree... C64 versions of Rof and Koronis Rift would gain so much if speed was greater... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 They're both amazing, especially on A8 with the extra cpu time. Definitely one up for Atari I remember seeing stuff about RoF when it was still called Behind Jaggi Lines I think most of the Lucasfilm/arts stuff was better on the A8. Love the Ballblazer tune too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 totally agree with all the comments about lucas stuff looking and playing nicer on the XL. ditto with my old favourite Karateka which i just to hijack my mates XL to play when i went to visit him. but tbh i doubt either machine is performing to its speed capabilities on any of the games. bearing in mind that 1980s american programmers didnt do the "optimised" "fast" or "small" words. if u couldnt load it in 27 parts from a disk they were buggered. anyway instead of all this "theoretical" nonsense how about doing: 1. a metallic glowy version of uridium instead of those "flat grey" ones i have seen 2. Paradroid another metallicy one 3..... WAY OF THE EXPLODING FIST! one of my own personal favourite games and lets be honest, u own just about the only 8 bit machine it was never done for. u really ought to rectify that. it was afterall one of the iconic 80s 2nd generation 64 games. and afterall, if u can do IK on an XL u can do fist surely Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Ahh, The Meanteam will take over your forum and turn you into C64 loving folk Alternatively The Meanteam will end up doing demos/games on the Atari. I think the latter is more likely If we waited 2 years to do a demo it could be the 25th anniversary comeback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 totally agree with all the comments about lucas stuff looking and playing nicer on the XL. ditto with my old favourite Karateka which i just to hijack my mates XL to play when i went to visit him. but tbh i doubt either machine is performing to its speed capabilities on any of the games. bearing in mind that 1980s american programmers didnt do the "optimised" "fast" or "small" words. if u couldnt load it in 27 parts from a disk they were buggered. anyway instead of all this "theoretical" nonsense how about doing: 1. a metallic glowy version of uridium instead of those "flat grey" ones i have seen 2. Paradroid another metallicy one 3..... WAY OF THE EXPLODING FIST! one of my own personal favourite games and lets be honest, u own just about the only 8 bit machine it was never done for. u really ought to rectify that. it was afterall one of the iconic 80s 2nd generation 64 games. and afterall, if u can do IK on an XL u can do fist surely Steve Welcome to the other side steve....the right side of the force (leave the dark side and come join us) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Hmm after evaluating the various fist versions on youtube for 2 hours, i dont think u could get the 64 fist backgrounds to work on the A8 the main sprites cross into too many colours. you would have to cheat like IK does and not let any character sprites go anywhere near detail areas or pattern the conversion on the amstrad color version which obviously had similar problems as an a8 would come across and is quite an elegant solution. a sort of hybrid IK/fist look. thoughts please? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Hmm after evaluating the various fist versions on youtube for 2 hours, i dont think u could get the 64 fist backgrounds to work on the A8 the main sprites cross into too many colours. you would have to cheat like IK does and not let any character sprites go anywhere near detail areas or pattern the conversion on the amstrad color version which obviously had similar problems as an a8 would come across and is quite an elegant solution. a sort of hybrid IK/fist look. thoughts please? Steve Hi Steve, I've just had a quick look at WOTE Fist to refresh my memory as I've not seen it for years. With a brief glance it looks as though it should be possible to recreate the c64 version on the A8 but I'd need to take a longer look. I take it you've seen the wip IK+ project? http://www.uce.pl/ikplus/downloads.html It was left unfinished for a few years but the authors got back onto it last year. Another game in the similar genre Yie Ar Kung fu we are working on now although we're putting most of our efforts in to an ST conversion at the moment. Fist would be welcome A8 addition for sure. I first saw it on the Speccy actually. BTW. Respect for your artwork I remember the sig Edited July 22, 2009 by Tezz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnieg Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Hmm after evaluating the various fist versions on youtube for 2 hours, i dont think u could get the 64 fist backgrounds to work on the A8 the main sprites cross into too many colours. you would have to cheat like IK does and not let any character sprites go anywhere near detail areas or pattern the conversion on the amstrad color version which obviously had similar problems as an a8 would come across and is quite an elegant solution. a sort of hybrid IK/fist look. thoughts please? Steve How about the BBC B or Electron version?, it seems to be using 160 x 256 8 colour mode, however I only counted 7 colours. Maybe Antic 4 with Display Lists and/or Players to add a bit of colour? Barnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 the amstrad version the c64 version comparing the above with the bbc version u will see that the bbc version like the amstrad version makes certain that players cannot jump/flying kick/somersault over the detail background. however on the c64 the players can move over a bitmap which uses probably 2/3 of the palette. hence i really dont think that its doable whilst software spriting the players on in black,white,pink & red. however a properly "coloured up" bbc version looks to me to be the way to do a conversion of this rather than try to stick rigidly to the 64 placement and screen format. as the previous poster has so well pointed out. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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