Atari v Commodore

[atariksi]

It's still wrong because it implies that A8 is limited to 8-bit divisors.

If you read things which are not written it's not my fault.

 

Have you even programmed a 32-bit divisor on the C64 or just reading off some spec?

???

 

I answered that recently (too many posts-- so just catching up).

 

If you don't concern yourself with accuracy of timers (which is the main thing and reason modern PCs keep trying to improve on them-- i.e. HPET), then Atari also has many timers-- 8 Paddle counters are useable as 15Khz timers, VCount is a timer, VBI is a timer, DLI can be used for timing w/WSYNC, and of course the POKEY timers which if you wanted to can also use the SIO output as a timer as well.

[atariksi]

32-bit vs. 16-bit timers isn't that big of a deal. The reason is: suppose I have a 15Khz timer and 16-bit counter and want to count a 32-bit value, then every 4 seconds in the IRQ routine you decrement a Zero Page register (or even Absolute location). You can have as many bits as you want. Now 8-bit would require updating at a much higher frequency so that would build some overhead. The bigger deal with timers is the accuracy.

 

Well you asked, and you had your answer.. And now you twist the point around as usual.. We were talking about the hardware doing it, you had proof that it does it, and now it's not important since we can do it all in software anyway.. Nice

 

Bullcrap. Your argument has NOTHING to do with timing accuracy. I answered you because even 32-bit timers are doable EASILY on A8. Please calculate the cycles used to extend 16-bit timer to 32-bit or even 256-bit and you will see what I mean. You never understood the point.

[PeteD]

My mind is perfectly fixed thankyou, obviously another mindreader What I've been saying over and over is that the raster is more flexible than the DLI, it may take more overhead but not much. You can make it match "modelines" and scroll with them if they scroll vertically, it's all just that extra little overhead which isn't much. I've also said over and over that I do agree the A8 is more capable than a lot of people think.

...

I agreed that you can mimic DLI functionality with raster IRQs using software overhead but having feature in hardware is better than in software otherwise you really have nothing on C64 that's better than A8. I wasn't reading your mind but going by what you wrote in flip-flopping between different views. Overhead isn't much if it's few cycles a frame but if you have many raster IRQs or DLIs, the overhead adds up quickly.

 

>As far as pokey and timers go you can't deny it's not the best situation. You'll say you can have 3 channels and a timer but then someone else will say the pokey is somewhat better than SID because it has 4 channels. Then what if you want a 16 bit timer? doesn't that lose yet another channel?

 

I am talking about timing things where timer accuracy is more important than number of channels. Atari timers are more accurate is a deductive fact.

 

>Not being familiar with the atari still doesn't mean a couple of lda sta for the vector, a raster irq line enable and a sta to the raster request isn't a hell of a lot less code than all of that.

 

You misunderstood my code. The IRQ routine itself is pretty small. The program is doing many things besides setting up an IRQ-- it's also doing a VBI and joystick I/O and trapping the reset key.

 

You really need to try harder to understand my posts instead of blaming me when you get something wrong. Now it's my fault for flip-flopping? Rasters are line accurate, DLIs (on char modes) aren't but STILL DLIs are better because the c64 CAN do the same and so much more with 1 interrupt type? what? Once again, of course A8 wins because you'll only compare a raster against doing exactly what a DLI does, if you want something more than that then that's not important because A8 coders never need that.

 

 

Pete

 

You are confused. I said DLIs are more optimized. That's a fact. You are claiming something I never stated-- that they are more flexibile. If I switch modes I can set colors or other features for the new mode using a DLI-- that's what the general use is. You WANT to use it for other purposes in CHAR mode and then claiming rasters are superior. Rasters are just a 15Khz timer nothing special about them and carry more overhead.

 

Aww come on, you've argued for days with me and TMR saying that DLIs are better than raster interrupts. When the point of scanline accurate comes up you point us to timers instead but they aren't DLIs. You make it seem like it's my fault that the A8 doesn't do what I want. I want a scanline accurate interrupt, without effecting any other hardware but I can't have one, I should just use DLIs and design my game better I suppose?

 

 

Pete

[PeteD]

It's only faulty logic to you because that suits your argument. We're talking facts here, facts in comparing one machine against another. Using timers on A8 for interrupts can effect the channel on pokey. Using timers on the C64 doesn't effect SID. The easiest way to get a scanline based IRQ is using timers on A8. On C64 timers aren't even needed for this. I never said you couldn't have 3 channel music in fact I said that would be fine for my purposes.

 

This is why I'll keep arguing because deepite the facts some of you Atarians will continue to twist the argument so you ALWAYS win, you'll never just admit that a point is valid.

 

It's nothing to do with being a C64 fanatic, I don't class myself one and you're gerneralising. It's to do with the capabilities of the machine and your stubborn refusal to admit that juuuuust once something might be even as good on C64, let alone better. I'll freely admit the A8 has a faster cpu, a better smooth scroll mechanism, LMS, a larger palette, etc etc but to you some of the far superior stuff on C64 like the sprites, nah, they're no better than what's possible on A8.

 

 

Pete

 

If you were to write that somewhere "using an IRQ timer will affect your music" you think it's a fair statement? I don't think so. I use 4 channels with a timer but leaving out the DAC, you still can do music and timers just fine. You should read my comments about C64 sprites before speaking. You have made a straw-man argument...

 

I'm not trying to win an argument but be truthful-- you made an erroneous statement that only CPU speed is superior and then asked what else was superior so I replied.

 

So I can ask you to write me some music using all the features of the POKEY and you can guarantee that it doesn't matter what my code does it will still work? This is the point you keep trying to get around with your twists and turns. using timers CAN effect the pokey's sound capabilities, or will you deny that? These are the points of fact we're arguing about as I posted earlier timers are too closely tied with pokey to guarantee nothing will go wrong.

 

 

Pete

 

Both machines have chips designed where they put in many different features on different chips. If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

WTF dood? flip-flop twisting to the exetreme. Please ask me a question before replying to it on my behalf. When have you EVER mentioned kb/joystick problems? I'll freely admit that the kb matrix and the joyports are linked but you've got to come up with that as bullshit argument to protect your pokey? Whatever.

 

 

Pete

[andym00]

If you don't concern yourself with accuracy of timers (which is the main thing and reason modern PCs keep trying to improve on them-- i.e. HPET), then Atari also has many timers-- 8 Paddle counters are useable as 15Khz timers, VCount is a timer, VBI is a timer, DLI can be used for timing w/WSYNC, and of course the POKEY timers which if you wanted to can also use the SIO output as a timer as well.

 

[Irgendwer]

...

etc but to you some of the far superior stuff on C64 like the sprites, nah, they're no better than what's possible on A8.

...

 

Maybe the reason for this is, that you can find the guys which like to work with a 6502 & a decent sprite subsystem in the Lynx forum?

[atariksi]

 

Yeah, too many to list again but were never addressed and mentioned in this thread like GPRIOR mode 0, overscanning, 8-directions scrolling windows, LMS, colors, etc.

 

Fair enough. I'll always concede the scrolling possibilites are better as a standard hardware feature but scrolling isn't that much of a problem for C64, but a win for A8 there. LMS surely is part of that too though?

...

LMS has a lot more uses than scrolling.

 

>Colours, ok but only of any use if you can "use" them properly, not colour bar splits like a demo, and if it was so easy then why don't many games look better?

 

Even if you use 4/5 color modes, you are going to get more accurate colors on A8. Many ways to look at colors.

 

>GPRIOR mode 0? not sure what you mean by that, putting 0 into GPRIOR? As a n00b you'll have to help me out here, I thought GPRIOR was a hardware "register" and you set it gtia modes, pf/pmg priorities etc? I'm not being sarcastic here, just not seen anything called "mode 0" in any docs I've read.

 

Well, there are many combinations of ANTIC modes and values in GPRIOR not all those combinations are documented.

 

>*edit*

>

>Overscan, hmm is that useful? The only reason I'd use overscan...

 

That's a subjective statement to refute something that IS used in many games. Perhaps, you don't have a use for it like I don't have a use for color RAM or wider sprites.

[andym00]

Bullcrap. Your argument has NOTHING to do with timing accuracy. I answered you because even 32-bit timers are doable EASILY on A8. Please calculate the cycles used to extend 16-bit timer to 32-bit or even 256-bit and you will see what I mean. You never understood the point.

 

The old point, yes.. Your newly adopted, completely unrelated to the original, point, sorry, no.. And don't care really..

To remind you, hardware timers, 8/16/32 bit was the point, not about paddles, not about PCs, not about doing it in software either zeropage or absolute memory addressing, but purely and simply about the hardware.. And you were given the example of linking together a CIAs independent timers so one counts underflows of the other to generate a 32bit timer..

[atariksi]

It's only faulty logic to you because that suits your argument. We're talking facts here, facts in comparing one machine against another. Using timers on A8 for interrupts can effect the channel on pokey. Using timers on the C64 doesn't effect SID. The easiest way to get a scanline based IRQ is using timers on A8. On C64 timers aren't even needed for this. I never said you couldn't have 3 channel music in fact I said that would be fine for my purposes.

 

This is why I'll keep arguing because deepite the facts some of you Atarians will continue to twist the argument so you ALWAYS win, you'll never just admit that a point is valid.

 

It's nothing to do with being a C64 fanatic, I don't class myself one and you're gerneralising. It's to do with the capabilities of the machine and your stubborn refusal to admit that juuuuust once something might be even as good on C64, let alone better. I'll freely admit the A8 has a faster cpu, a better smooth scroll mechanism, LMS, a larger palette, etc etc but to you some of the far superior stuff on C64 like the sprites, nah, they're no better than what's possible on A8.

 

 

Pete

 

If you were to write that somewhere "using an IRQ timer will affect your music" you think it's a fair statement? I don't think so. I use 4 channels with a timer but leaving out the DAC, you still can do music and timers just fine. You should read my comments about C64 sprites before speaking. You have made a straw-man argument...

 

I'm not trying to win an argument but be truthful-- you made an erroneous statement that only CPU speed is superior and then asked what else was superior so I replied.

 

So I can ask you to write me some music using all the features of the POKEY and you can guarantee that it doesn't matter what my code does it will still work? This is the point you keep trying to get around with your twists and turns. using timers CAN effect the pokey's sound capabilities, or will you deny that? These are the points of fact we're arguing about as I posted earlier timers are too closely tied with pokey to guarantee nothing will go wrong.

 

 

Pete

 

Both machines have chips designed where they put in many different features on different chips. If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

WTF dood? flip-flop twisting to the exetreme. Please ask me a question before replying to it on my behalf. When have you EVER mentioned kb/joystick problems? I'll freely admit that the kb matrix and the joyports are linked but you've got to come up with that as bullshit argument to protect your pokey? Whatever.

 

 

Pete

 

You have lost your head it looks like. You can't follow a simple logical statement. Just like POKEY uses frequency registers for audio notes and timer countdowns, your C64 CIAs map the KB in conflict with the joystick.

 

I'm not protecting the POKEY-- I already admitted the frequency registers are re-used; go read it in the thread. And you can also read the kb/joystick interference in the thread as well. Just proves you never really read this thread.

[atariksi]

Bullcrap. Your argument has NOTHING to do with timing accuracy. I answered you because even 32-bit timers are doable EASILY on A8. Please calculate the cycles used to extend 16-bit timer to 32-bit or even 256-bit and you will see what I mean. You never understood the point.

 

The old point, yes.. Your newly adopted, completely unrelated to the original, point, sorry, no.. And don't care really..

To remind you, hardware timers, 8/16/32 bit was the point, not about paddles, not about PCs, not about doing it in software either zeropage or absolute memory addressing, but purely and simply about the hardware.. And you were given the example of linking together a CIAs independent timers so one counts underflows of the other to generate a 32bit timer..

 

Bullcrap. Original point is I gave source code for 558ns accuracy on Atari. It's still up there-- so your twisting won't help you.

 

I was answering someone else-- so let him reply as you have no understanding of the flow of the argument.

[PeteD]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

[PeteD]

It's only faulty logic to you because that suits your argument. We're talking facts here, facts in comparing one machine against another. Using timers on A8 for interrupts can effect the channel on pokey. Using timers on the C64 doesn't effect SID. The easiest way to get a scanline based IRQ is using timers on A8. On C64 timers aren't even needed for this. I never said you couldn't have 3 channel music in fact I said that would be fine for my purposes.

 

This is why I'll keep arguing because deepite the facts some of you Atarians will continue to twist the argument so you ALWAYS win, you'll never just admit that a point is valid.

 

It's nothing to do with being a C64 fanatic, I don't class myself one and you're gerneralising. It's to do with the capabilities of the machine and your stubborn refusal to admit that juuuuust once something might be even as good on C64, let alone better. I'll freely admit the A8 has a faster cpu, a better smooth scroll mechanism, LMS, a larger palette, etc etc but to you some of the far superior stuff on C64 like the sprites, nah, they're no better than what's possible on A8.

 

 

Pete

 

If you were to write that somewhere "using an IRQ timer will affect your music" you think it's a fair statement? I don't think so. I use 4 channels with a timer but leaving out the DAC, you still can do music and timers just fine. You should read my comments about C64 sprites before speaking. You have made a straw-man argument...

 

I'm not trying to win an argument but be truthful-- you made an erroneous statement that only CPU speed is superior and then asked what else was superior so I replied.

 

So I can ask you to write me some music using all the features of the POKEY and you can guarantee that it doesn't matter what my code does it will still work? This is the point you keep trying to get around with your twists and turns. using timers CAN effect the pokey's sound capabilities, or will you deny that? These are the points of fact we're arguing about as I posted earlier timers are too closely tied with pokey to guarantee nothing will go wrong.

 

 

Pete

 

Both machines have chips designed where they put in many different features on different chips. If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

WTF dood? flip-flop twisting to the exetreme. Please ask me a question before replying to it on my behalf. When have you EVER mentioned kb/joystick problems? I'll freely admit that the kb matrix and the joyports are linked but you've got to come up with that as bullshit argument to protect your pokey? Whatever.

 

 

Pete

 

You have lost your head it looks like. You can't follow a simple logical statement. Just like POKEY uses frequency registers for audio notes and timer countdowns, your C64 CIAs map the KB in conflict with the joystick.

 

I'm not protecting the POKEY-- I already admitted the frequency registers are re-used; go read it in the thread. And you can also read the kb/joystick interference in the thread as well. Just proves you never really read this thread.

 

Really, WTF IS YOUR PROBLEM? I'm starting to get pissed off now with this bullshit, don't care if I get banned or whatever but you can't make statements like that then blame ME for your bullshit, AGAIN.

[atariksi]

...

This game works at the same speed on both computers, but the C-64 version has more colours and much better sound/music. C-64 wins again.

...

 

Sorry, C-64 permanently lost because to prevent people from misleading like you are attempting the discussion of hardware aspects was started so people can understand why something is better on one machine than another. So rather than take some biased samples, people can see that overall A8 can make much much better games than C64.

[atariksi]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

[PeteD]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

[STE'86]

...

This game works at the same speed on both computers, but the C-64 version has more colours and much better sound/music. C-64 wins again.

...

 

Sorry, C-64 permanently lost because to prevent people from misleading like you are attempting the discussion of hardware aspects was started so people can understand why something is better on one machine than another. So rather than take some biased samples, people can see that overall A8 can make much much better games than C64.

 

i'm sorry but are u actually stating there that overall Atari games are much better than 64 ones? even tho 30 years of evidence is in direct dispute to that. i have to know if thats what u really meant to say. please clarify

 

Steve

[PeteD]

As far as the border problem goes, I'll quote Bryan as he was the last person to post about it. If you read my earlier post when overscan was mentioned I said that as the "borders" didn't mask PMGs when in normal res I'd use overscan so that they were masked by the TV screen edge rather than mask them in software or waste Players or Missiles to cover that area.

 

Bryan's message..

 

Players can be anywhere- they are not connected to the generation of the playfield in any way (except that they get OR'ed when PRIOR=0). They will always appear if placed in the borders. The border color always has the lowest priority and cannot be placed in front of players. If you don't want your players visible in the borders then you must clip them manually or put a player or missile of higher priority in the border or go with an overscanned screen and make your own borders out of another higher priority color.

 

http://www.retromicr...i/8bit/gtia.pdf

 

See page 5 of the GTIA pdf.

Edited September 6, 2009 by PeteD

[atariksi]

...btw, you didn't tell me what gprior mode 0 is yet, I thought everyone was supposed to know? If someone just told me instead of keeping it a secret, if it was better than a C64 "mode" and useful I'd be happy to say "well done A8" as I've done on the posts about Head over Heels and other posts.

 

 

Patience, grasshoppa...

 

Why patience? you know so much, you tell me then I can get on with my life

 

I'm only hazarding a rough guess here, but if I remember right it's how player (and missle) bit patterns interact with the graphics data on the bus.. There's some weird logical operations going on with the playfield colours and the Player/Missle data..

...

 

OR.

[atariksi]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

 

Take it easy. I know it's hard to swallow the truth, but I said the KB/joystick problem not YOU.

[PeteD]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

 

Take it easy. I know it's hard to swallow the truth, but I said the KB/joystick problem not YOU.

 

And once more i say WTF! you did say it to me, over and over, out of the middle of nowhere you brought it up in a reply and said that "I" HAD to admit it, presuming that I wouldn't when you've NEVER asked me about it before. You really are fucking insane.

 

I quote...

 

If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

Lots of YOUs in there if you weren't talking to me. Why not just admit when you've fucked up, I'd respect you a lot more for it.

 

Pete

[Lazarus]

C64 doesn't benefit from a RAM expansion? The Commodore 17xx expansions have a DMA which can copy or fill 1 byte per clock cycle and it can even write directly to hardware registers. Imaging you have to clear buffers or render pre-scaled texture rows to a screen buffer, and that being done ~8-10 times faster than the CPU could do it.

 

But it won't help with more colours, more sprites etc. We already have seen the turbo boards working on the C64, even the fast CPU doesn't help there.

On the A8 you need 5 CPU cycles to switch 8K of RAM immediately (resulting in theoretical "billions" of bytes per second). It would be fast enough to point POKEY and ANTIC there. Showing 60fps 256 colour videos plus digi sounds at a recognizable rate.

And what exactly stops the C64 from doing the same. BTW, setting the video pointer to a different address doesn't render anything new. Just in case you have not noticed it.

 

If you don't concern yourself with accuracy of timers (which is the main thing and reason modern PCs keep trying to improve on them-- i.e. HPET), then Atari also has many timers-- 8 Paddle counters are useable as 15Khz timers, VCount is a timer, VBI is a timer, DLI can be used for timing w/WSYNC, and of course the POKEY timers which if you wanted to can also use the SIO output as a timer as well.

This is getting so ridiculous I cannot even find an answer for this.

[atariksi]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

 

Take it easy. I know it's hard to swallow the truth, but I said the KB/joystick problem not YOU.

 

And once more i say WTF! you did say it to me, over and over, out of the middle of nowhere you brought it up in a reply and said that "I" HAD to admit it, presuming that I wouldn't when you've NEVER asked me about it before. You really are fucking insane.

 

I quote...

 

If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

Lots of YOUs in there if you weren't talking to me. Why not just admit when you've fucked up, I'd respect you a lot more for it.

 

Pete

 

You are screwed. The logic here is that for you it's perfectly okay to state that timers screw up music on Atari but it's not okay for me to say keyboard/joysticks cause interference on C64. You misunderstood.

 

They even use one of the audio channels for timing in bars & pipes on Amiga.

[atariksi]

C64 doesn't benefit from a RAM expansion? The Commodore 17xx expansions have a DMA which can copy or fill 1 byte per clock cycle and it can even write directly to hardware registers. Imaging you have to clear buffers or render pre-scaled texture rows to a screen buffer, and that being done ~8-10 times faster than the CPU could do it.

 

But it won't help with more colours, more sprites etc. We already have seen the turbo boards working on the C64, even the fast CPU doesn't help there.

On the A8 you need 5 CPU cycles to switch 8K of RAM immediately (resulting in theoretical "billions" of bytes per second). It would be fast enough to point POKEY and ANTIC there. Showing 60fps 256 colour videos plus digi sounds at a recognizable rate.

And what exactly stops the C64 from doing the same. BTW, setting the video pointer to a different address doesn't render anything new. Just in case you have not noticed it.

 

If you don't concern yourself with accuracy of timers (which is the main thing and reason modern PCs keep trying to improve on them-- i.e. HPET), then Atari also has many timers-- 8 Paddle counters are useable as 15Khz timers, VCount is a timer, VBI is a timer, DLI can be used for timing w/WSYNC, and of course the POKEY timers which if you wanted to can also use the SIO output as a timer as well.

This is getting so ridiculous I cannot even find an answer for this.

 

Because you never addressed the point. Atari has a more accurate timing mechanism. Plain and simple and logically deducible. Rather than answer to that you start talking about 16-bit -> 32-bit (which also easily doable on A8) and that you have more timers (which I answered and you claim it's getting ridiculous). If you can't follow your own train of thought, then leave the subject alone.

[emkay]

And what exactly stops the C64 from doing the same. BTW, setting the video pointer to a different address doesn't render anything new. Just in case you have not noticed it.

 

After having a 50 (or 60Hz) video running, there is still more CPU time left than the C64 has without such, for playing the digi sounds.

And then you might not have noticed it, the C64 don't even have 16 shades of grey, and something less than 256 colours for playing videos

[PeteD]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

 

Take it easy. I know it's hard to swallow the truth, but I said the KB/joystick problem not YOU.

 

And once more i say WTF! you did say it to me, over and over, out of the middle of nowhere you brought it up in a reply and said that "I" HAD to admit it, presuming that I wouldn't when you've NEVER asked me about it before. You really are fucking insane.

 

I quote...

 

If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

Lots of YOUs in there if you weren't talking to me. Why not just admit when you've fucked up, I'd respect you a lot more for it.

 

Pete

 

You are screwed. The logic here is that for you it's perfectly okay to state that timers screw up music on Atari but it's not okay for me to say keyboard/joysticks cause interference on C64. You misunderstood.

 

They even use one of the audio channels for timing in bars & pipes on Amiga.

 

Holy crap I've never known anyone as bad as you for refusing to admit when you're wrong. I'll repeat it again, show me one place in the forum where I ever commented on kb/joysticks. Do it, or fuck off with your nonsense. I have NEVER said it's not ok for you to say that. What's even more funny is by making that statement and your nonsense presumption that I would disagree you've also negated all your previous statements about timers.

 

Now you'll even try to bring an amiga into it. WTF!

 

Pete