Atari v Commodore

[atariksi]

As far as the border problem goes, I'll quote Bryan as he was the last person to post about it. If you read my earlier post when overscan was mentioned I said that as the "borders" didn't mask PMGs when in normal res I'd use overscan so that they were masked by the TV screen edge rather than mask them in software or waste Players or Missiles to cover that area.

 

Bryan's message..

 

Players can be anywhere- they are not connected to the generation of the playfield in any way (except that they get OR'ed when PRIOR=0). They will always appear if placed in the borders. The border color always has the lowest priority and cannot be placed in front of players. If you don't want your players visible in the borders then you must clip them manually or put a player or missile of higher priority in the border or go with an overscanned screen and make your own borders out of another higher priority color.

 

http://www.retromicr...i/8bit/gtia.pdf

 

See page 5 of the GTIA pdf.

 

I don't see the problem. Background is the lowest priority consistently-- it's not a bug. You only would use overscan for avoiding border color, but people have found better uses for it. Overscan is useful (perhaps not for you).

[Lazarus]

And what exactly stops the C64 from doing the same. BTW, setting the video pointer to a different address doesn't render anything new. Just in case you have not noticed it.

 

After having a 50 (or 60Hz) video running, there is still more CPU time left than the C64 has without such, for playing the digi sounds.

And then you might not have noticed it, the C64 don't even have 16 shades of grey, and something less than 256 colours for playing videos

But 16 shades of grey or 256 colors wasn't the point. The point was: He says he only needs "5 cycles" (6 cycles in reality) to "copy" 8k of memory. And completely ignores that "copy memory" means something different than "change video pointer". With copy memory you can actually render something to a screen buffer, with video pointer modification you can't.

[PeteD]

As far as the border problem goes, I'll quote Bryan as he was the last person to post about it. If you read my earlier post when overscan was mentioned I said that as the "borders" didn't mask PMGs when in normal res I'd use overscan so that they were masked by the TV screen edge rather than mask them in software or waste Players or Missiles to cover that area.

 

Bryan's message..

 

Players can be anywhere- they are not connected to the generation of the playfield in any way (except that they get OR'ed when PRIOR=0). They will always appear if placed in the borders. The border color always has the lowest priority and cannot be placed in front of players. If you don't want your players visible in the borders then you must clip them manually or put a player or missile of higher priority in the border or go with an overscanned screen and make your own borders out of another higher priority color.

 

http://www.retromicr...i/8bit/gtia.pdf

 

See page 5 of the GTIA pdf.

 

I don't see the problem. Background is the lowest priority consistently-- it's not a bug. You only would use overscan for avoiding border color, but people have found better uses for it. Overscan is useful (perhaps not for you).

 

GOD DAMN you're doing it again. I never said BUG show me where I did. I said that because the borders didn't mask PMGS they were useless for that purpose, therefore I would use overscan to aleviate that problem. I also never said it "wasn't" useful, I enquired if it was, thus by inference wanting people to give me uses for it, NOT saying they were useless. It's a request for a conversation again, not an attack on your precious machine. There is a massive difference.

 

 

Pete

[atariksi]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

 

Take it easy. I know it's hard to swallow the truth, but I said the KB/joystick problem not YOU.

 

And once more i say WTF! you did say it to me, over and over, out of the middle of nowhere you brought it up in a reply and said that "I" HAD to admit it, presuming that I wouldn't when you've NEVER asked me about it before. You really are fucking insane.

 

I quote...

 

If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

Lots of YOUs in there if you weren't talking to me. Why not just admit when you've fucked up, I'd respect you a lot more for it.

 

Pete

 

You are screwed. The logic here is that for you it's perfectly okay to state that timers screw up music on Atari but it's not okay for me to say keyboard/joysticks cause interference on C64. You misunderstood.

 

They even use one of the audio channels for timing in bars & pipes on Amiga.

 

Holy crap I've never known anyone as bad as you for refusing to admit when you're wrong. I'll repeat it again, show me one place in the forum where I ever commented on kb/joysticks. Do it, or fuck off with your nonsense. I have NEVER said it's not ok for you to say that. What's even more funny is by making that statement and your nonsense presumption that I would disagree you've also negated all your previous statements about timers.

 

Now you'll even try to bring an amiga into it. WTF!

 

Pete

 

Read my replies when you are not emotionally involved with fault-finding and replying in 2 seconds. Stop the cursing-- it just shows your biased emotional disposition. Where am I wrong when you are misunderstanding the point. I SAID THERE IS KB/JOYSTICK inteference not you. Amiga uses a timer of an audio channel and can make very good music nonetheless-- i.e., using the audio channel for timer does not screw up the music.

[atariksi]

As far as the border problem goes, I'll quote Bryan as he was the last person to post about it. If you read my earlier post when overscan was mentioned I said that as the "borders" didn't mask PMGs when in normal res I'd use overscan so that they were masked by the TV screen edge rather than mask them in software or waste Players or Missiles to cover that area.

 

Bryan's message..

 

Players can be anywhere- they are not connected to the generation of the playfield in any way (except that they get OR'ed when PRIOR=0). They will always appear if placed in the borders. The border color always has the lowest priority and cannot be placed in front of players. If you don't want your players visible in the borders then you must clip them manually or put a player or missile of higher priority in the border or go with an overscanned screen and make your own borders out of another higher priority color.

 

http://www.retromicr...i/8bit/gtia.pdf

 

See page 5 of the GTIA pdf.

 

I don't see the problem. Background is the lowest priority consistently-- it's not a bug. You only would use overscan for avoiding border color, but people have found better uses for it. Overscan is useful (perhaps not for you).

 

GOD DAMN you're doing it again. I never said BUG show me where I did. I said that because the borders didn't mask PMGS they were useless for that purpose, therefore I would use overscan to aleviate that problem. I also never said it "wasn't" useful, I enquired if it was, thus by inference wanting people to give me uses for it, NOT saying they were useless. It's a request for a conversation again, not an attack on your precious machine. There is a massive difference.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay you used the world "problems". But all I was listing were advantages of A8 over C64-- i wasn't asking whether you had any use for it.

[Lazarus]

Amiga uses a timer of an audio channel and can make very good music nonetheless-- i.e., using the audio channel for timer does not screw up the music.

Uh what? The Amiga has two CIAs just like C64. Audio channels are not interfered by timers.

[atariksi]

My mind is perfectly fixed thankyou, obviously another mindreader What I've been saying over and over is that the raster is more flexible than the DLI, it may take more overhead but not much. You can make it match "modelines" and scroll with them if they scroll vertically, it's all just that extra little overhead which isn't much. I've also said over and over that I do agree the A8 is more capable than a lot of people think.

...

I agreed that you can mimic DLI functionality with raster IRQs using software overhead but having feature in hardware is better than in software otherwise you really have nothing on C64 that's better than A8. I wasn't reading your mind but going by what you wrote in flip-flopping between different views. Overhead isn't much if it's few cycles a frame but if you have many raster IRQs or DLIs, the overhead adds up quickly.

 

>As far as pokey and timers go you can't deny it's not the best situation. You'll say you can have 3 channels and a timer but then someone else will say the pokey is somewhat better than SID because it has 4 channels. Then what if you want a 16 bit timer? doesn't that lose yet another channel?

 

I am talking about timing things where timer accuracy is more important than number of channels. Atari timers are more accurate is a deductive fact.

 

>Not being familiar with the atari still doesn't mean a couple of lda sta for the vector, a raster irq line enable and a sta to the raster request isn't a hell of a lot less code than all of that.

 

You misunderstood my code. The IRQ routine itself is pretty small. The program is doing many things besides setting up an IRQ-- it's also doing a VBI and joystick I/O and trapping the reset key.

 

You really need to try harder to understand my posts instead of blaming me when you get something wrong. Now it's my fault for flip-flopping? Rasters are line accurate, DLIs (on char modes) aren't but STILL DLIs are better because the c64 CAN do the same and so much more with 1 interrupt type? what? Once again, of course A8 wins because you'll only compare a raster against doing exactly what a DLI does, if you want something more than that then that's not important because A8 coders never need that.

 

 

Pete

 

You are confused. I said DLIs are more optimized. That's a fact. You are claiming something I never stated-- that they are more flexibile. If I switch modes I can set colors or other features for the new mode using a DLI-- that's what the general use is. You WANT to use it for other purposes in CHAR mode and then claiming rasters are superior. Rasters are just a 15Khz timer nothing special about them and carry more overhead.

 

Aww come on, you've argued for days with me and TMR saying that DLIs are better than raster interrupts. When the point of scanline accurate comes up you point us to timers instead but they aren't DLIs. You make it seem like it's my fault that the A8 doesn't do what I want. I want a scanline accurate interrupt, without effecting any other hardware but I can't have one, I should just use DLIs and design my game better I suppose?

 

 

Pete

 

Wrong, we argued over optimization when I gave bare bones cycles example of DLI. A8 does have IRQ as well but choice is to try DLI first since that's a more optimal solution.

[atariksi]

Amiga uses a timer of an audio channel and can make very good music nonetheless-- i.e., using the audio channel for timer does not screw up the music.

Uh what? The Amiga has two CIAs just like C64. Audio channels are not interfered by timers.

 

You don't understand the point so don't reply. In Bars and Pipes they needed a more accurate timer and the audio timer is more accurate than CIA timer.

[PeteD]

Yes because on a game with a "border" PMGs going over it is a problem, as shown in the video I posted of Summer Games, and that's just one example. If for some reason you HAVE to have a normal res screen, or maybe you just want one then non masking borders adds another "problem" to the equation. I also didn't comment before on if MY uses we're anything to do with anything, as I said it was an enquiry. Obviously overscan does what it says, makes the screen wider but I mentioned that is that still visible on all TVs so can you put things there that are important to the player. Once again an enquiry. I've never said overscan was useless.

 

 

Pete

[PeteD]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

 

Take it easy. I know it's hard to swallow the truth, but I said the KB/joystick problem not YOU.

 

And once more i say WTF! you did say it to me, over and over, out of the middle of nowhere you brought it up in a reply and said that "I" HAD to admit it, presuming that I wouldn't when you've NEVER asked me about it before. You really are fucking insane.

 

I quote...

 

If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

Lots of YOUs in there if you weren't talking to me. Why not just admit when you've fucked up, I'd respect you a lot more for it.

 

Pete

 

You are screwed. The logic here is that for you it's perfectly okay to state that timers screw up music on Atari but it's not okay for me to say keyboard/joysticks cause interference on C64. You misunderstood.

 

They even use one of the audio channels for timing in bars & pipes on Amiga.

 

Holy crap I've never known anyone as bad as you for refusing to admit when you're wrong. I'll repeat it again, show me one place in the forum where I ever commented on kb/joysticks. Do it, or fuck off with your nonsense. I have NEVER said it's not ok for you to say that. What's even more funny is by making that statement and your nonsense presumption that I would disagree you've also negated all your previous statements about timers.

 

Now you'll even try to bring an amiga into it. WTF!

 

Pete

 

Read my replies when you are not emotionally involved with fault-finding and replying in 2 seconds. Stop the cursing-- it just shows your biased emotional disposition. Where am I wrong when you are misunderstanding the point. I SAID THERE IS KB/JOYSTICK inteference not you. Amiga uses a timer of an audio channel and can make very good music nonetheless-- i.e., using the audio channel for timer does not screw up the music.

 

Please don't tell me what to do, what to think or how to read English. You've made a mistake by implying that I won't admit there is a kb/joystick interference on C64. You were wrong and now you don't know how to get out of it apart from go into your twist and turn mode, reword things on each reply etc etc

 

My cursing doesn't show any biased disposition, it shows my feeling towards you as the arrogant know it all you are who can make statements against someone and then never admit that's what you meant to try to get out of apologising. If you did it in one reply I'd have got annoyed but it's been many replies now and you're STILL doing it. Twist and turn and lie to get out of being wrong.

 

 

Pete

[atariksi]

Yes because on a game with a "border" PMGs going over it is a problem, as shown in the video I posted of Summer Games, and that's just one example. If for some reason you HAVE to have a normal res screen, or maybe you just want one then non masking borders adds another "problem" to the equation. I also didn't comment before on if MY uses we're anything to do with anything, as I said it was an enquiry. Obviously overscan does what it says, makes the screen wider but I mentioned that is that still visible on all TVs so can you put things there that are important to the player. Once again an enquiry. I've never said overscan was useless.

 

 

Pete

 

Yeah, it does depend on monitor to see how many extra chars (pixels) are visible. Star Leage Baseball uses overscan and gives the appearance that the crowd/stadium continues on.

[atariksi]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

 

Take it easy. I know it's hard to swallow the truth, but I said the KB/joystick problem not YOU.

 

And once more i say WTF! you did say it to me, over and over, out of the middle of nowhere you brought it up in a reply and said that "I" HAD to admit it, presuming that I wouldn't when you've NEVER asked me about it before. You really are fucking insane.

 

I quote...

 

If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

Lots of YOUs in there if you weren't talking to me. Why not just admit when you've fucked up, I'd respect you a lot more for it.

 

Pete

 

You are screwed. The logic here is that for you it's perfectly okay to state that timers screw up music on Atari but it's not okay for me to say keyboard/joysticks cause interference on C64. You misunderstood.

 

They even use one of the audio channels for timing in bars & pipes on Amiga.

 

Holy crap I've never known anyone as bad as you for refusing to admit when you're wrong. I'll repeat it again, show me one place in the forum where I ever commented on kb/joysticks. Do it, or fuck off with your nonsense. I have NEVER said it's not ok for you to say that. What's even more funny is by making that statement and your nonsense presumption that I would disagree you've also negated all your previous statements about timers.

 

Now you'll even try to bring an amiga into it. WTF!

 

Pete

 

Read my replies when you are not emotionally involved with fault-finding and replying in 2 seconds. Stop the cursing-- it just shows your biased emotional disposition. Where am I wrong when you are misunderstanding the point. I SAID THERE IS KB/JOYSTICK inteference not you. Amiga uses a timer of an audio channel and can make very good music nonetheless-- i.e., using the audio channel for timer does not screw up the music.

 

Please don't tell me what to do, what to think or how to read English. You've made a mistake by implying that I won't admit there is a kb/joystick interference on C64. You were wrong and now you don't know how to get out of it apart from go into your twist and turn mode, reword things on each reply etc etc

 

My cursing doesn't show any biased disposition, it shows my feeling towards you as the arrogant know it all you are who can make statements against someone and then never admit that's what you meant to try to get out of apologising. If you did it in one reply I'd have got annoyed but it's been many replies now and you're STILL doing it. Twist and turn and lie to get out of being wrong.

 

 

Pete

 

I never said you won't admit-- you misunderstood the analogy. I don't see where I am wrong in using that as an example to explain the audio timers of POKEYs. No one starts claiming "joysticks interfere with kb" when you tell them about making a game that uses joysticks and keyboards so your generalization that using a timer affects POKEY timers is even worse. That's all.

[PeteD]

Yes because on a game with a "border" PMGs going over it is a problem, as shown in the video I posted of Summer Games, and that's just one example. If for some reason you HAVE to have a normal res screen, or maybe you just want one then non masking borders adds another "problem" to the equation. I also didn't comment before on if MY uses we're anything to do with anything, as I said it was an enquiry. Obviously overscan does what it says, makes the screen wider but I mentioned that is that still visible on all TVs so can you put things there that are important to the player. Once again an enquiry. I've never said overscan was useless.

 

 

Pete

 

Yeah, it does depend on monitor to see how many extra chars (pixels) are visible. Star Leage Baseball uses overscan and gives the appearance that the crowd/stadium continues on.

 

Understood, but my "question" is, is there a "safe" area of overscan that is a limit in X position so if players go past there they might not be seen on some TVs and therefore the game becomes impossible to play because you can't see what you're doing? When I worked at Philips on CD-i we were given callibrated TVs with a stick on overlay that showed areas where things like text had to be inside or any sprites that could interact with each other or the background. Coding anything that went outside these guaranteed visible areas would mean your game being rejected by Philips.

 

 

Pete

[atariksi]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

 

Take it easy. I know it's hard to swallow the truth, but I said the KB/joystick problem not YOU.

 

And once more i say WTF! you did say it to me, over and over, out of the middle of nowhere you brought it up in a reply and said that "I" HAD to admit it, presuming that I wouldn't when you've NEVER asked me about it before. You really are fucking insane.

 

I quote...

 

If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

Lots of YOUs in there if you weren't talking to me. Why not just admit when you've fucked up, I'd respect you a lot more for it.

 

Pete

 

You are screwed. The logic here is that for you it's perfectly okay to state that timers screw up music on Atari but it's not okay for me to say keyboard/joysticks cause interference on C64. You misunderstood.

 

They even use one of the audio channels for timing in bars & pipes on Amiga.

 

Holy crap I've never known anyone as bad as you for refusing to admit when you're wrong. I'll repeat it again, show me one place in the forum where I ever commented on kb/joysticks. Do it, or fuck off with your nonsense. I have NEVER said it's not ok for you to say that. What's even more funny is by making that statement and your nonsense presumption that I would disagree you've also negated all your previous statements about timers.

 

Now you'll even try to bring an amiga into it. WTF!

 

Pete

 

Read my replies when you are not emotionally involved with fault-finding and replying in 2 seconds. Stop the cursing-- it just shows your biased emotional disposition. Where am I wrong when you are misunderstanding the point. I SAID THERE IS KB/JOYSTICK inteference not you. Amiga uses a timer of an audio channel and can make very good music nonetheless-- i.e., using the audio channel for timer does not screw up the music.

 

Please don't tell me what to do, what to think or how to read English. You've made a mistake by implying that I won't admit there is a kb/joystick interference on C64. You were wrong and now you don't know how to get out of it apart from go into your twist and turn mode, reword things on each reply etc etc

 

My cursing doesn't show any biased disposition, it shows my feeling towards you as the arrogant know it all you are who can make statements against someone and then never admit that's what you meant to try to get out of apologising. If you did it in one reply I'd have got annoyed but it's been many replies now and you're STILL doing it. Twist and turn and lie to get out of being wrong.

 

 

Pete

 

I never said you won't admit-- you misunderstood the analogy. I don't see where I am wrong in using that as an example to explain the audio timers of POKEYs. No one starts claiming "joysticks interfere with kb" when you tell them about making a game that uses joysticks and keyboards so your generalization that using a timer affects POKEY timers is even worse. That's all.

Should be "affects POKEY music".

[Lazarus]

You don't understand the point so don't reply. In Bars and Pipes they needed a more accurate timer and the audio timer is more accurate than CIA timer.

Yes I don't understand the point. Where exactly does bars and pipes interfere with audio and have only 3 channels because of that? It's midi and it doesn't care for Amiga audio channels. And now back again: Do you have an example of a program playing Amiga audio channels and sacrificing one channel due to "inaccurate timers"?

[Bryan]

I just want everyone to notice how successful Rockford has been. This thread had nearly come to a halt but after a few of his anti-Atari posts everybody's at each other again. Really some top-notch trolling.

[PeteD]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

 

Take it easy. I know it's hard to swallow the truth, but I said the KB/joystick problem not YOU.

 

And once more i say WTF! you did say it to me, over and over, out of the middle of nowhere you brought it up in a reply and said that "I" HAD to admit it, presuming that I wouldn't when you've NEVER asked me about it before. You really are fucking insane.

 

I quote...

 

If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

Lots of YOUs in there if you weren't talking to me. Why not just admit when you've fucked up, I'd respect you a lot more for it.

 

Pete

 

You are screwed. The logic here is that for you it's perfectly okay to state that timers screw up music on Atari but it's not okay for me to say keyboard/joysticks cause interference on C64. You misunderstood.

 

They even use one of the audio channels for timing in bars & pipes on Amiga.

 

Holy crap I've never known anyone as bad as you for refusing to admit when you're wrong. I'll repeat it again, show me one place in the forum where I ever commented on kb/joysticks. Do it, or fuck off with your nonsense. I have NEVER said it's not ok for you to say that. What's even more funny is by making that statement and your nonsense presumption that I would disagree you've also negated all your previous statements about timers.

 

Now you'll even try to bring an amiga into it. WTF!

 

Pete

 

Read my replies when you are not emotionally involved with fault-finding and replying in 2 seconds. Stop the cursing-- it just shows your biased emotional disposition. Where am I wrong when you are misunderstanding the point. I SAID THERE IS KB/JOYSTICK inteference not you. Amiga uses a timer of an audio channel and can make very good music nonetheless-- i.e., using the audio channel for timer does not screw up the music.

 

Please don't tell me what to do, what to think or how to read English. You've made a mistake by implying that I won't admit there is a kb/joystick interference on C64. You were wrong and now you don't know how to get out of it apart from go into your twist and turn mode, reword things on each reply etc etc

 

My cursing doesn't show any biased disposition, it shows my feeling towards you as the arrogant know it all you are who can make statements against someone and then never admit that's what you meant to try to get out of apologising. If you did it in one reply I'd have got annoyed but it's been many replies now and you're STILL doing it. Twist and turn and lie to get out of being wrong.

 

 

Pete

 

I never said you won't admit-- you misunderstood the analogy. I don't see where I am wrong in using that as an example to explain the audio timers of POKEYs. No one starts claiming "joysticks interfere with kb" when you tell them about making a game that uses joysticks and keyboards so your generalization that using a timer affects POKEY timers is even worse. That's all.

 

I'm sorry but that just wasn't an analogy, it was aimed at me (read the YOU YOU and YOU in your post) saying that I (inferred by all the YOUs) HAD to admit it. If you'd asked me first I would have said YES it can be a problem, if you're playing a game using the joysticks and you want ungarbled keys 100% of the time. Just as using timers on pokey messes with the functionality of music creation.

 

 

Pete

[atariksi]

You don't understand the point so don't reply. In Bars and Pipes they needed a more accurate timer and the audio timer is more accurate than CIA timer.

Yes I don't understand the point. Where exactly does bars and pipes interfere with audio and have only 3 channels because of that? It's midi and it doesn't care for Amiga audio channels. And now back again: Do you have an example of a program playing Amiga audio channels and sacrificing one channel due to "inaccurate timers"?

 

It uses one audio channel for timers so you have 3 audio channels left. Yes, that example is Bars & Pipes. May be more examples but that's the one I tried.

[Lazarus]

It uses one audio channel for timers so you have 3 audio channels left. Yes, that example is Bars & Pipes. May be more examples but that's the one I tried.

Perhaps the programmers of bars&pipes just have been stupid? I don't see an obvious reason why you should waste a channel on amiga for "timers".

[PeteD]

I just want everyone to notice how successful Rockford has been. This thread had nearly come to a halt but after a few of his anti-Atari posts everybody's at each other again. Really some top-notch trolling.

 

The problem is when someone comes here with the sole intention of posting screenies that are better on C64, certain Atarians get all defensive and take anything posted by anyone as being an attack.

 

Since Rockford started his posting I've defended the A8 against head over heels and even played both versions to a point I'd remembered the C64 one slowing down to prove even if only to myself that the A8 one doesn't. That means nothing though, it'll be ignored in my Atari Karma because I'm still seen as a C64 fanboy.

 

If only people weren't so eager to jump down other people's throats it'd be a lot quieter despite "trolls".

 

 

Pete

[atariksi]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

 

Take it easy. I know it's hard to swallow the truth, but I said the KB/joystick problem not YOU.

 

And once more i say WTF! you did say it to me, over and over, out of the middle of nowhere you brought it up in a reply and said that "I" HAD to admit it, presuming that I wouldn't when you've NEVER asked me about it before. You really are fucking insane.

 

I quote...

 

If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

Lots of YOUs in there if you weren't talking to me. Why not just admit when you've fucked up, I'd respect you a lot more for it.

 

Pete

 

You are screwed. The logic here is that for you it's perfectly okay to state that timers screw up music on Atari but it's not okay for me to say keyboard/joysticks cause interference on C64. You misunderstood.

 

They even use one of the audio channels for timing in bars & pipes on Amiga.

 

Holy crap I've never known anyone as bad as you for refusing to admit when you're wrong. I'll repeat it again, show me one place in the forum where I ever commented on kb/joysticks. Do it, or fuck off with your nonsense. I have NEVER said it's not ok for you to say that. What's even more funny is by making that statement and your nonsense presumption that I would disagree you've also negated all your previous statements about timers.

 

Now you'll even try to bring an amiga into it. WTF!

 

Pete

 

Read my replies when you are not emotionally involved with fault-finding and replying in 2 seconds. Stop the cursing-- it just shows your biased emotional disposition. Where am I wrong when you are misunderstanding the point. I SAID THERE IS KB/JOYSTICK inteference not you. Amiga uses a timer of an audio channel and can make very good music nonetheless-- i.e., using the audio channel for timer does not screw up the music.

 

Please don't tell me what to do, what to think or how to read English. You've made a mistake by implying that I won't admit there is a kb/joystick interference on C64. You were wrong and now you don't know how to get out of it apart from go into your twist and turn mode, reword things on each reply etc etc

 

My cursing doesn't show any biased disposition, it shows my feeling towards you as the arrogant know it all you are who can make statements against someone and then never admit that's what you meant to try to get out of apologising. If you did it in one reply I'd have got annoyed but it's been many replies now and you're STILL doing it. Twist and turn and lie to get out of being wrong.

 

 

Pete

 

I never said you won't admit-- you misunderstood the analogy. I don't see where I am wrong in using that as an example to explain the audio timers of POKEYs. No one starts claiming "joysticks interfere with kb" when you tell them about making a game that uses joysticks and keyboards so your generalization that using a timer affects POKEY timers is even worse. That's all.

 

I'm sorry but that just wasn't an analogy, it was aimed at me (read the YOU YOU and YOU in your post) saying that I (inferred by all the YOUs) HAD to admit it. If you'd asked me first I would have said YES it can be a problem, if you're playing a game using the joysticks and you want ungarbled keys 100% of the time. Just as using timers on pokey messes with the functionality of music creation.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, now you understood me (mostly). So it's perfectly fine to say POKEY can do timing and music together just as you have many games/applications that use joystick and keyboard.

[Lazarus]

Okay, now you understood me (mostly). So it's perfectly fine to say POKEY can do timing and music together just as you have many games/applications that use joystick and keyboard.

Now the question is: What of the two is more important?

[PeteD]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

 

Take it easy. I know it's hard to swallow the truth, but I said the KB/joystick problem not YOU.

 

And once more i say WTF! you did say it to me, over and over, out of the middle of nowhere you brought it up in a reply and said that "I" HAD to admit it, presuming that I wouldn't when you've NEVER asked me about it before. You really are fucking insane.

 

I quote...

 

If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

Lots of YOUs in there if you weren't talking to me. Why not just admit when you've fucked up, I'd respect you a lot more for it.

 

Pete

 

You are screwed. The logic here is that for you it's perfectly okay to state that timers screw up music on Atari but it's not okay for me to say keyboard/joysticks cause interference on C64. You misunderstood.

 

They even use one of the audio channels for timing in bars & pipes on Amiga.

 

Holy crap I've never known anyone as bad as you for refusing to admit when you're wrong. I'll repeat it again, show me one place in the forum where I ever commented on kb/joysticks. Do it, or fuck off with your nonsense. I have NEVER said it's not ok for you to say that. What's even more funny is by making that statement and your nonsense presumption that I would disagree you've also negated all your previous statements about timers.

 

Now you'll even try to bring an amiga into it. WTF!

 

Pete

 

Read my replies when you are not emotionally involved with fault-finding and replying in 2 seconds. Stop the cursing-- it just shows your biased emotional disposition. Where am I wrong when you are misunderstanding the point. I SAID THERE IS KB/JOYSTICK inteference not you. Amiga uses a timer of an audio channel and can make very good music nonetheless-- i.e., using the audio channel for timer does not screw up the music.

 

Please don't tell me what to do, what to think or how to read English. You've made a mistake by implying that I won't admit there is a kb/joystick interference on C64. You were wrong and now you don't know how to get out of it apart from go into your twist and turn mode, reword things on each reply etc etc

 

My cursing doesn't show any biased disposition, it shows my feeling towards you as the arrogant know it all you are who can make statements against someone and then never admit that's what you meant to try to get out of apologising. If you did it in one reply I'd have got annoyed but it's been many replies now and you're STILL doing it. Twist and turn and lie to get out of being wrong.

 

 

Pete

 

I never said you won't admit-- you misunderstood the analogy. I don't see where I am wrong in using that as an example to explain the audio timers of POKEYs. No one starts claiming "joysticks interfere with kb" when you tell them about making a game that uses joysticks and keyboards so your generalization that using a timer affects POKEY timers is even worse. That's all.

 

I'm sorry but that just wasn't an analogy, it was aimed at me (read the YOU YOU and YOU in your post) saying that I (inferred by all the YOUs) HAD to admit it. If you'd asked me first I would have said YES it can be a problem, if you're playing a game using the joysticks and you want ungarbled keys 100% of the time. Just as using timers on pokey messes with the functionality of music creation.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, now you understood me (mostly). So it's perfectly fine to say POKEY can do timing and music together just as you have many games/applications that use joystick and keyboard.

 

So sad. Keep twisting my words and meanings till you get out of the crap you posted earlier. You must be really insecure to keep it up.

 

 

Pete

[PeteD]

If we keep this up, one page will be taken up by 1 reply

 

 

Pete

[Bryan]

I just want everyone to notice how successful Rockford has been. This thread had nearly come to a halt but after a few of his anti-Atari posts everybody's at each other again. Really some top-notch trolling.

 

The problem is when someone comes here with the sole intention of posting screenies that are better on C64, certain Atarians get all defensive and take anything posted by anyone as being an attack.

 

Since Rockford started his posting I've defended the A8 against head over heels and even played both versions to a point I'd remembered the C64 one slowing down to prove even if only to myself that the A8 one doesn't. That means nothing though, it'll be ignored in my Atari Karma because I'm still seen as a C64 fanboy.

 

If only people weren't so eager to jump down other people's throats it'd be a lot quieter despite "trolls".

 

 

Pete

I assumed that the whole reason this thread was started was because many games look better on the 64, so we should have a thread to point out games that look better on the A8. IMO it's sort of implied that A8 games do not regularly trounce 64 games.

 

I'll say it again: the designs are 3 years apart. Show me another machine from 1979 that has the sound and graphics capability of the Atari 800. Under Warner Communications, Atari stopped innovating and eventually Commodore kicked their ass. Atari out-did the Vic-20, then Commodore out-did the 800. Simple as that. I think Atari had the more elegant design overall, but you can't argue with the amount of color the 64 puts on the screen or the price point they achieved.

 

All this talk about timers and whatnot is really irrelevant. These systems were propelled by the games and games need video-based interrupts.