Atari v Commodore

[andym00]

Edit: Petes right.. I fell into the Atariski trap..

Post removed

Edited September 6, 2009 by andym00

[dwhyte]

I just want everyone to notice how successful Rockford has been. This thread had nearly come to a halt but after a few of his anti-Atari posts everybody's at each other again. Really some top-notch trolling.

 

<golf clap>

</golf clap>

[PeteD]

You're falling into the trap WTF has Amiga got to do with the current discussion or the thread in general. Now you'll get embroiled in that for a day until you give up which means you lose, and there is no "win" anyway because it's irrelevant.

 

 

Pete

[dwhyte]

The problem is when someone comes here with the sole intention of posting screenies that are better on C64, certain Atarians get all defensive and take anything posted by anyone as being an attack.

 

Since Rockford started his posting I've defended the A8 against head over heels and even played both versions to a point I'd remembered the C64 one slowing down to prove even if only to myself that the A8 one doesn't. That means nothing though, it'll be ignored in my Atari Karma because I'm still seen as a C64 fanboy.

 

If only people weren't so eager to jump down other people's throats it'd be a lot quieter despite "trolls".

 

 

Pete

 

Would the response be any different if I went to the Lemon64 or CSDB forums and done the same thing to them (though vice versa--Atari games better than C64 ones--just so we're clear on our English here)? No it wouldn't.

Edited September 6, 2009 by dwhyte

[PeteD]

I just want everyone to notice how successful Rockford has been. This thread had nearly come to a halt but after a few of his anti-Atari posts everybody's at each other again. Really some top-notch trolling.

 

 

What's most saddening is a lot of the games posted could've looked just as good but because they don't there's no real point in saying, "but.." I've got designs and some proof of concept, or at least small feasability docs I've done on some of the more "flash" C64 games where I know they're possible on A8. I'm keeping them to myself for now but after Fist I'm hoping to work on something else a little more impressive.

 

I love C64, don't get me wrong and I do prefer it for games but then I'm not much of a gamer anyway, back in the day I was more of a "scener" and even "invented" the C64s VSP hardware scroll TMR and Analmux were discussing the other day but I've worked on so many machines before and since then that they're all much of a muchness now and I'd like to think I can bring some of my experience to the A8 just "because it's there."

 

I'm done arguing (I hope) because it's just a waste of time for more reasons than one.

 

 

Pete

[STE'86]

The problem is when someone comes here with the sole intention of posting screenies that are better on C64, certain Atarians get all defensive and take anything posted by anyone as being an attack.

 

Since Rockford started his posting I've defended the A8 against head over heels and even played both versions to a point I'd remembered the C64 one slowing down to prove even if only to myself that the A8 one doesn't. That means nothing though, it'll be ignored in my Atari Karma because I'm still seen as a C64 fanboy.

 

If only people weren't so eager to jump down other people's throats it'd be a lot quieter despite "trolls".

 

 

Pete

 

Would the response be any different if I went to the Lemon64 or CSDB forums and done the same thing to them (though vice versa--Atari games better than C64 ones--just so we're clear on our English here)? No it wouldn't.

 

why dont u do it as an experiment. tho i am fairly sure you would get 300 pages of LOLs rather than arguments defending the 64s abilty.

 

actually there was one recently i just remembered. everyone who participated reeled off the same 6 that everyone always does. then ran out of games and it died at 4 pages.

 

Steve

[Bryan]

What's most saddening is a lot of the games posted could've looked just as good but because they don't there's no real point in saying, "but.." I've got designs and some proof of concept, or at least small feasability docs I've done on some of the more "flash" C64 games where I know they're possible on A8. I'm keeping them to myself for now but after Fist I'm hoping to work on something else a little more impressive.

I have a whole directory full of proof-of-concepts I hope to turn into games (in case anyone in that lotto thread gets lucky!). Obviously, writing your game the textbook way (monochrome sprites and a 4-color background) is going to give your game that 1980 look, but you can do some really incredible stuff when you think outside the box. The problem is, it takes more work and code and it can be frustrating trying to find the optimal way to manage your resources. I always feel like there's a more clever way to do it than what I've come up with.

 

Anyway, I think programming the Atari is a blast and because of the challenges it's more impressive when someone makes a top-notch game with it.

[Rockford]

I just want everyone to notice how successful Rockford has been. This thread had nearly come to a halt but after a few of his anti-Atari posts everybody's at each other again. Really some top-notch trolling.

Really ? Let's look at an exemplary post made by one of atarians from this forum.

 

 

So better consider dying and freeing both scenes from such a troll.

 

Alternatively take your dog, girfriend, boyriend or whataver you have for a loooong walk. Maybe some bus or truck will hit you finally doing the right job...

 

What a "classy" and "intelligent" reply and what a brainiac he is. Very nice, isn't it ? So, who is trolling here ? :!:

[Goochman]

You're falling into the trap WTF has Amiga got to do with the current discussion or the thread in general. Now you'll get embroiled in that for a day until you give up which means you lose, and there is no "win" anyway because it's irrelevant.

 

 

Pete

Pete - escape this trap while you can - as an 800 owner whose neighbor had a C64 I just want some new titles that show the 8bit true capabilities. If a C64 coder does it - great, I can't wait. This is a no win thread - all we need is for the 'chewbaca defense' to return and it's full circle.

 

Bottom line - I would imagine 95% of all bit games could be done in a similar way with using different approaches on each machine - unfort the bit got the short stick over and over again.

[Bryan]

I just want everyone to notice how successful Rockford has been. This thread had nearly come to a halt but after a few of his anti-Atari posts everybody's at each other again. Really some top-notch trolling.

Really ? Let's look at an exemplary post made by one of atarians from this forum.

 

 

So better consider dying and freeing both scenes from such a troll.

 

Alternatively take your dog, girfriend, boyriend or whataver you have for a loooong walk. Maybe some bus or truck will hit you finally doing the right job...

 

What a "classy" and "intelligent" reply and what a brainiac he is. Very nice, isn't it ? So, who is trolling here ? :!:

 

ThomSW = member since beginning of 2005. Has posted in a wide range of topics.

 

You = member for less than a month. Has only posted in this topic, and only joined to post counter to the stated goal of the thread:

 

POST 1:

 

Does anybody have any views on where any titles were launched on both Atari and Commodore - and the Atari version is the better of the two?

 

Steve

 

You make the call.

[Rockford]

I just want everyone to notice how successful Rockford has been. This thread had nearly come to a halt but after a few of his anti-Atari posts everybody's at each other again. Really some top-notch trolling.

Really ? Let's look at an exemplary post made by one of atarians from this forum.

 

 

So better consider dying and freeing both scenes from such a troll.

 

Alternatively take your dog, girfriend, boyriend or whataver you have for a loooong walk. Maybe some bus or truck will hit you finally doing the right job...

 

What a "classy" and "intelligent" reply and what a brainiac he is. Very nice, isn't it ? So, who is trolling here ? :!:

 

ThomSW = member since beginning of 2005. Has posted in a wide range of topics.

 

You = member for less than a month. Has only posted in this topic, and only joined to post counter to the stated goal of the thread:

 

POST 1:

 

Does anybody have any views on where any titles were launched on both Atari and Commodore - and the Atari version is the better of the two?

 

Steve

 

You make the call.

 

So, if I were an AA member, as long as ThomSW, I could write such non trolling and "polite" post as he did ? Sweeeeeeet... and some really SOLID logic here.

[Heaven/TQA]

But it won't help with more colours, more sprites etc. We already have seen the turbo boards working on the C64, even the fast CPU doesn't help there.

 

And also, I forgot to mention, that the REU can change the way things are done on a C64, quite radically.. One thing I've experimented with in the past it treating c64 sprites like your Atari players and splitting them full screen height, copying data into the strips, and loading colour, x-expansion and positions on each scanline.. The C64 gets overloaded with this technique (reloading so many sprites that is), but since you can now transfer memory into hwardware registers you can load all the sprite registers in a very short time now on each scanline directly from the REU

And you can also using it for transferring sprite definitions into the sprite strips when you order them..

 

You need to realise the REU is like a little blitter, except that it performs no logical operations between the source and destination, just copies.. Though it can perform memory compares for you..

 

It was only a test for a bullet hell game where I wanted 200+ sprites on screen at once, and the CPU is just overloaded by it all, well it'll manage the sprite display, but anything else is off limits.... But with a REU it's very very very doable..

 

I've never understood why you Atari guys don't put more effort into using your Players in a *very* multiplexed fashion.. You could do some killer stuff with them, and you've got the procesing power for a fast sort (I mean my radix sort takes a constant 38 cycles per sprite to be sorted) and don't see why you couldn't easily handled ~128 players on screen with colours per line.. I just don't get why you haven't gone down that avenue yet..

 

As for the Turbo boards ? Nobody develops for them, because hardly anyone will see what you write.. There's no emulators for them, and it's unlikely there ever will be.. I'm not about to buy a SuperCPU board for the absolutely mental prices their going for, especially when the only game out there is pretty shite given the acceleration its got.. That doesn't mean that the C64 can't benefit from it at all, it can, but I don't think anyone really cares to be honest..

 

In the C64 world it's all about reaching your largest audience.. And that's a C64+1541 pretty much what you bought 25 years ago.. And that's the fun of it as well.. A known limit to work with.. You all know this as well.. I don't get where the fun is in adding additional hardware to an old machine to make it perform new tricks.. I've done some 2600 stuff (first time around and this century) and I know that the bank switching stuff is essential to those, but with new stuff adding more and more to them I feel the spirit is being lost, which after all isn't that what it's all about ? I mean, much as I love Harmony and will get one of course, I'm nervous about what's going to come out of it.. It's not really a 2600 game anymore when inside the cart is sitting a 72Mhz ARM chip..

 

I really toyed with something similar on the 7800, but decided that it's just not a 7800 game when it's powered by an ARM chip and the Host is literally being used as a display device.. If you get some kick out of that then fine, but like VBXE + the new sound boards and the big new mem carts with RAM (and god knows what else will end up in there) it feels like you've lost the reason you loved the machine and want to turn it into something it's not.. And in some ways feels like it's cheating the machine itself..

 

Anyway.. The REU is a damn fine piece of kit, just there's not so many of them out there in the world, and what's the point of writing something that uses it when your audience is going to be mainly emulator bound ? If Commodore had put it's functionality into the 128 I suspect there would have been a far bigger uptake in its support, but they didn't and that's the end of the story really..

 

Hmm... even with Radix sort I am far away of having 128 sprites on screen...

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/39806-pm-multiplexor/page__hl__multiplex

[Heaven/TQA]

Probably vscrol in Heaven's case is a ram location he's called vscrol, or at least I'd think so? He does mention not having looked at the code and typed that from his head, and vsrcrol is marked as W at least in "mapping" so wouldn't return the actual scroll offset

 

 

Pete

 

tsss...you all get me confused with the c64 stuff... of course vscrol is the shadow register which get's put into $d405 in the VBL...

[frenchman]

 

So, if I were an AA member, as long as ThomSW, I could write such non trolling and "polite" post as he did ? Sweeeeeeet... and some really SOLID logic here.

 

Oi you liar, you promised to post on Monday again. It is still Sunday in Europe. Another wrong information from you as usual? Oh, btw, aren't you dead yet?

[Gury]

I just want everyone to notice how successful Rockford has been. This thread had nearly come to a halt but after a few of his anti-Atari posts everybody's at each other again. Really some top-notch trolling.

 

The problem is when someone comes here with the sole intention of posting screenies that are better on C64, certain Atarians get all defensive and take anything posted by anyone as being an attack.

 

Pete

No, the fact IS that Rockford is here just to tease us Atarians and come with things we all already know. Sure C64 has more hardware sprites and it is easier to make 2D scrolling games, but still A8 can do similar or better things. We rather don't go beyond "games" department.

 

On many occasions when new fine A8 game or demo product comes out to the public, many times the only argument C64 fanboys could manage to produce is something like that: oh, it can be done on C64 either... oh, how hard it is to start doing something on A8... oh in sploh...

[Shawn Jefferson]

Understood, but my "question" is, is there a "safe" area of overscan that is a limit in X position so if players go past there they might not be seen on some TVs and therefore the game becomes impossible to play because you can't see what you're doing? When I worked at Philips on CD-i we were given callibrated TVs with a stick on overlay that showed areas where things like text had to be inside or any sprites that could interact with each other or the background. Coding anything that went outside these guaranteed visible areas would mean your game being rejected by Philips.

 

The "safe" area is the normal screen of the Atari computer pretty much, but it depends largely on your TV. Older TVs are much worse in that respect. It was said that Atari set the default left column setting at 2 (fire up BASIC on a machine and wonder why all your text is 2 columns over... You effectively are getting 38x24.) to make doubly-sure that it wouldn't be cut off by the TVs of the era.

[atariksi]

Yes, congratulations overscan is a subjective matter, hence my, "Is that useful?" and later sentances, but there are problems with games in normal res and PMGs going over borders. Another fact or will you deny that one too?

 

LMS I've already agreed together with the hardware scrolling are good points in the A8s favour, I was just asking (notice that weird ? symbol) if this wasn't just part of the same thing.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, since it was a subjective answer then Overscan is advantage of A8 along with DLIs as already discussed.

 

You want to discuss problems (you started this), then don't deny your kb/joystick interference problems or any others that get mentioned. Okay, so now you want to do fault-finding-- okay explain the normal res/PMGs border problem so we can discuss that.

 

WTF you're still doing it, show me where, ONCE in this entire forum I've ever said anything about the kb/joystick!! Why not for once admit you've fucked up.

 

 

Pete

 

Take it easy. I know it's hard to swallow the truth, but I said the KB/joystick problem not YOU.

 

And once more i say WTF! you did say it to me, over and over, out of the middle of nowhere you brought it up in a reply and said that "I" HAD to admit it, presuming that I wouldn't when you've NEVER asked me about it before. You really are fucking insane.

 

I quote...

 

If you think it's fine for you to say that timers affect music (in general) then you should also accept a perfectly valid statement that joystick input is erroneous on C64 due to keyboard interference or vice versa.

 

 

Lots of YOUs in there if you weren't talking to me. Why not just admit when you've fucked up, I'd respect you a lot more for it.

 

Pete

 

You are screwed. The logic here is that for you it's perfectly okay to state that timers screw up music on Atari but it's not okay for me to say keyboard/joysticks cause interference on C64. You misunderstood.

 

They even use one of the audio channels for timing in bars & pipes on Amiga.

 

Holy crap I've never known anyone as bad as you for refusing to admit when you're wrong. I'll repeat it again, show me one place in the forum where I ever commented on kb/joysticks. Do it, or fuck off with your nonsense. I have NEVER said it's not ok for you to say that. What's even more funny is by making that statement and your nonsense presumption that I would disagree you've also negated all your previous statements about timers.

 

Now you'll even try to bring an amiga into it. WTF!

 

Pete

 

Read my replies when you are not emotionally involved with fault-finding and replying in 2 seconds. Stop the cursing-- it just shows your biased emotional disposition. Where am I wrong when you are misunderstanding the point. I SAID THERE IS KB/JOYSTICK inteference not you. Amiga uses a timer of an audio channel and can make very good music nonetheless-- i.e., using the audio channel for timer does not screw up the music.

 

Please don't tell me what to do, what to think or how to read English. You've made a mistake by implying that I won't admit there is a kb/joystick interference on C64. You were wrong and now you don't know how to get out of it apart from go into your twist and turn mode, reword things on each reply etc etc

 

My cursing doesn't show any biased disposition, it shows my feeling towards you as the arrogant know it all you are who can make statements against someone and then never admit that's what you meant to try to get out of apologising. If you did it in one reply I'd have got annoyed but it's been many replies now and you're STILL doing it. Twist and turn and lie to get out of being wrong.

 

 

Pete

 

I never said you won't admit-- you misunderstood the analogy. I don't see where I am wrong in using that as an example to explain the audio timers of POKEYs. No one starts claiming "joysticks interfere with kb" when you tell them about making a game that uses joysticks and keyboards so your generalization that using a timer affects POKEY timers is even worse. That's all.

 

I'm sorry but that just wasn't an analogy, it was aimed at me (read the YOU YOU and YOU in your post) saying that I (inferred by all the YOUs) HAD to admit it. If you'd asked me first I would have said YES it can be a problem, if you're playing a game using the joysticks and you want ungarbled keys 100% of the time. Just as using timers on pokey messes with the functionality of music creation.

 

 

Pete

 

Okay, now you understood me (mostly). So it's perfectly fine to say POKEY can do timing and music together just as you have many games/applications that use joystick and keyboard.

 

So sad. Keep twisting my words and meanings till you get out of the crap you posted earlier. You must be really insecure to keep it up.

 

 

Pete

 

If I really wanted to pick you apart, I could waste a ton of my time and go back and show you all those times you misunderstood what I wrote or misread it perhaps. But I am sticking to my point-- it's misleading to state that using a timer affects POKEY music. (period). If you can't understand the analogy I made to make it simpler and claim it's a mistake, then don't use the analogy.

[atariksi]

Edit: Petes right.. I fell into the Atariski trap..

Post removed

 

You should remove all the posts since you never really answered the question anyway or addressed the issues-- just some straw-man argument "atariksi trap".

[atariksi]

You're falling into the trap WTF has Amiga got to do with the current discussion or the thread in general. Now you'll get embroiled in that for a day until you give up which means you lose, and there is no "win" anyway because it's irrelevant.

 

 

Pete

 

Irrelevant in your eyes. Amiga's example is relevant as was the KB/Joystick analogy but you understood neither.

[atariksi]

Understood, but my "question" is, is there a "safe" area of overscan that is a limit in X position so if players go past there they might not be seen on some TVs and therefore the game becomes impossible to play because you can't see what you're doing? When I worked at Philips on CD-i we were given callibrated TVs with a stick on overlay that showed areas where things like text had to be inside or any sprites that could interact with each other or the background. Coding anything that went outside these guaranteed visible areas would mean your game being rejected by Philips.

 

The "safe" area is the normal screen of the Atari computer pretty much, but it depends largely on your TV. Older TVs are much worse in that respect. It was said that Atari set the default left column setting at 2 (fire up BASIC on a machine and wonder why all your text is 2 columns over... You effectively are getting 38x24.) to make doubly-sure that it wouldn't be cut off by the TVs of the era.

 

Some older TVs also don't have a HPOS setting.

[PeteD]

Someone just lives in their own little world of "I'm never wrong" don't they. I presume it has nice soft walls.

 

 

Pete

[atariksi]

I just want everyone to notice how successful Rockford has been. This thread had nearly come to a halt but after a few of his anti-Atari posts everybody's at each other again. Really some top-notch trolling.

 

The problem is when someone comes here with the sole intention of posting screenies that are better on C64, certain Atarians get all defensive and take anything posted by anyone as being an attack.

 

Since Rockford started his posting I've defended the A8 against head over heels and even played both versions to a point I'd remembered the C64 one slowing down to prove even if only to myself that the A8 one doesn't. That means nothing though, it'll be ignored in my Atari Karma because I'm still seen as a C64 fanboy.

 

If only people weren't so eager to jump down other people's throats it'd be a lot quieter despite "trolls".

 

 

Pete

I assumed that the whole reason this thread was started was because many games look better on the 64, so we should have a thread to point out games that look better on the A8. IMO it's sort of implied that A8 games do not regularly trounce 64 games.

 

I'll say it again: the designs are 3 years apart. Show me another machine from 1979 that has the sound and graphics capability of the Atari 800. Under Warner Communications, Atari stopped innovating and eventually Commodore kicked their ass. Atari out-did the Vic-20, then Commodore out-did the 800. Simple as that. I think Atari had the more elegant design overall, but you can't argue with the amount of color the 64 puts on the screen or the price point they achieved.

 

All this talk about timers and whatnot is really irrelevant. These systems were propelled by the games and games need video-based interrupts.

 

C64 certainly beat Atari in price, but can't accept putting up same 16 colors many times to be an advantage over a bigger palette and GTIA modes with resolution enhancement or GPRIOR mode 0, but then again perhaps all people go by is what got used rather than what a system can do.

 

Interrupts are relevant to video IRQ vs. DLI as well as for accuracy. DLI is actually more acccurate than the raster IRQ of C64, but the hardware behind it is deciding when to cause the interrupt based on mode line so it makes it sort of specialized and appear to be less accurate than a 15Khz interrupt. I would rather have a DLI over raster IRQ any day. You can always squeeze in code (w/self-modifications if needed) to get to exact spot where you want to do your modifications or use the 15Khz IRQ in worst case.

[atariksi]

Someone just lives in their own little world of "I'm never wrong" don't they. I presume it has nice soft walls.

 

 

Pete

 

If you can't address the point, no need to make some speculative assertion.

[Lazarus]

No, the fact IS that Rockford is here just to tease us Atarians and come with things we all already know. Sure C64 has more hardware sprites and it is easier to make 2D scrolling games, but still A8 can do similar or better things. We rather don't go beyond "games" department.

 

On many occasions when new fine A8 game or demo product comes out to the public, many times the only argument C64 fanboys could manage to produce is something like that: oh, it can be done on C64 either... oh, how hard it is to start doing something on A8... oh in sploh...

C64 doesn't have more hw sprites, it has 8 like A8. And they are bigger, better, more flexible and easier to multiplex. So no, in the case of sprite based stuff the A8 cannot do similar or better things.

[PeteD]

Someone just lives in their own little world of "I'm never wrong" don't they. I presume it has nice soft walls.

 

 

Pete

 

If you can't address the point, no need to make some speculative assertion.

 

Hmm, telling me what to do now as well as what I'm thinking without asking

 

I've already stated that I'm not going to "argue" over these points any more because there is no way you will ever admit you are wrong. Twisting the meanings of your posts to suit your argument over and over, leaving out important facts from one post to another. Never admitting your wrong when it's proved you are but instead changing track entirely so hopefully people will forget about it. It's not worth it to waste my time on you. I suppose the plan was to get me banned like Oswald and then there would be one less threat against you.

 

 

Pete