Artlover Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 RED CARS ARE BETTER THAN BLUE CARS! That is a FACT and anybody that disagrees is a retard! Actually, Yellow cars are better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinski Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Finally I could care less what the Majority thinks is "best" because the majority is a bunch of retards. The Majoity probably would think the GC was less powerful than the PS2 or "closer" to the DC. The Majority think the Jag was a complete piece of dog shit, a joke, the majority would compare it to the N64 not because there is a 3 year gap between the two, not because the Jag was actually released in 1993, to compete with the SNES or 3DO... but because it was "64-bit" and the majority doesn't even know what a bit is. The majority things bits means how many colors it can produce. Seriously the Majority doesn't mean jack! Exactly. The majority doesn't necessarily want what is good; they want what is familiar. With unfamiliar things, they make assumptions without so much as giving them a fair shot. It's a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevincal Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) My god you people are DENSE. THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD IS "DREAMCAST WAS BETTER THAN THE PS2". THEREFORE MY REASONING FOR USING SALES FIGURES, NUMBER OF GAMES IN THE LIBRARY ETC. YOU FANBOYS KEEP TALKING ABOUT ONLY THE DREAMCAST'S GRAPHICS, HELLO, THERE'S A LOT MORE TO A SYSTEM THAN JUST THE GRAPHICS. THIS IS WHY I AM SO ADAMENT ABOUT SAYING THE PS2 IS THE BETTER SYSTEM ALL AROUND. PLEASE SIT THERE AND THINK ABOUT IT FOR A MINUTE PLEASE. SIT THERE AND READ THE TOPIC TITLE A FEW TIMES, AND LET IT SINK IN. STARTING WITH GRAN TURISMO 3, THE PLAYSTATION 2 KICKED THE DREAMCASTS ASS INTO THE GROUND. EVER SINCE, THE PLAYSTATION 2 HAS BEEN THE BETTER SYSTEM. YOU DC FANBOYS CAN SIT THERE ALL DAY AND SAY THIS ISN'T SO. BUT AGAIN, IF YOU POLLED EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS OWNED A DC AND PS2, THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WILL SAY THE PS2 IS THE BETTER SYSTEM, NOT JUST ME!!! NOW WHO THE HELL WANTS TO ARGUE WITH ME ON THIS... AGAIN, HOW GOOD A SYSTEM IS HAS A LOT MORE TO DO WITH JUST HOW GOOD THE GRAPHICS ARE. IT'S THE WHOLE PACKAGE THAT MAKES A GREAT SYSTEM. GREAT GRAPHICS, LOTS OF GAMES, GREAT CONTROLLER, GREAT EXTRAS, BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY. DC = GREAT GRAPHICS + DECENT AMOUNT OF GREAT GAMES. CONTROLLER IS SO SO. NO EXTRAS. PS2 = GREAT GRAPHICS + ENORMOUS GAME LIBRARY/MANY MORE GREAT A+ GAMES THAN THE DREAMCAST + BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY + DVD. CONTROLLER IS GREAT. GET MY POINT? Edited April 24, 2009 by kevincal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artlover Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 My god you people are DENSE. THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD IS "DREAMCAST WAS BETTER THAN THE PS2". THEREFORE MY REASONING FOR USING SALES FIGURES, NUMBER OF GAMES IN THE LIBRARY ETC. AND ONCE AGAIN, WHAT PART OF SEGA KILLED THE DREAMCAST AFTER 2 YEARS SO OF COURSE IT DOESN'T HAVE THE SALES FIGURES OR LIBRARY DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? Seriously, how and why do you honestly believe that shit makes any valid point when comparing a dead system to an active one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevincal Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 AGAIN, HOW GOOD A SYSTEM IS HAS A LOT MORE TO DO WITH JUST HOW GOOD THE GRAPHICS ARE. IT'S THE WHOLE PACKAGE THAT MAKES A GREAT SYSTEM. GREAT GRAPHICS, LOTS OF GAMES, GREAT CONTROLLER, GREAT EXTRAS, BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY. DC = GREAT GRAPHICS + DECENT AMOUNT OF GREAT GAMES. CONTROLLER IS SO SO. NO EXTRAS. PS2 = GREAT GRAPHICS + ENORMOUS GAME LIBRARY/MANY MORE GREAT A+ GAMES THAN THE DREAMCAST + BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY + DVD. CONTROLLER IS GREAT. GET MY POINT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevincal Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) The title of this thread SHOULD have been. "Dreamcast COULD HAVE been better than the PS2". If that were so, you would hear no bitching from me. OR I would even let slide... "Dreamcast was better than the PS2, until Gran Turismo 3". Because after GT3 came out, PS2 sales skyrocketed and the A+ titles really started to roll in... Then the DC died... Hmm... The DREAMcast couldn't do Gran Turismo 3 in its wildest DREAMS, atleast it wouldn't be near as good as the PS2 version. Not to mention all of the other kickass PS2 games that came after GT3 with even better graphics etc.. Edited April 24, 2009 by kevincal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticGamer Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 The title of this thread SHOULD have been. "Dreamcast COULD HAVE been better than the PS2". If that were so, you would hear no bitching from me. OR I would even let slide... "Dreamcast was better than the PS2, until Gran Turismo 3". Because after GT3 came out, PS2 sales skyrocketed and the A+ titles really started to roll in... Then the DC died... Hmm... The DREAMcast couldn't do Gran Turismo 3 in its wildest DREAMS, atleast it wouldn't be near as good as the PS2 version. Not to mention all of the other kickass PS2 games that came after GT3 with even better graphics etc.. /thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinski Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 My god you people are DENSE. THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD IS "DREAMCAST WAS BETTER THAN THE PS2". THEREFORE MY REASONING FOR USING SALES FIGURES, NUMBER OF GAMES IN THE LIBRARY ETC. YOU FANBOYS KEEP TALKING ABOUT ONLY THE DREAMCAST'S GRAPHICS, HELLO, THERE'S A LOT MORE TO A SYSTEM THAN JUST THE GRAPHICS. THIS IS WHY I AM SO ADAMENT ABOUT SAYING THE PS2 IS THE BETTER SYSTEM ALL AROUND. PLEASE SIT THERE AND THINK ABOUT IT FOR A MINUTE PLEASE. SIT THERE AND READ THE TOPIC TITLE A FEW TIMES, AND LET IT SINK IN. Again, you bring up points that're obvious and can be attributed to the fact that Dreamcast was only around for two years in most regions. At least you're backing off of your graphical claims a bit. STARTING WITH GRAN TURISMO 3, THE PLAYSTATION 2 KICKED THE DREAMCASTS ASS INTO THE GROUND. EVER SINCE, THE PLAYSTATION 2 HAS BEEN THE BETTER SYSTEM. YOU DC FANBOYS CAN SIT THERE ALL DAY AND SAY THIS ISN'T SO. BUT AGAIN, IF YOU POLLED EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS OWNED A DC AND PS2, THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WILL SAY THE PS2 IS THE BETTER SYSTEM, NOT JUST ME!!! NOW WHO THE HELL WANTS TO ARGUE WITH ME ON THIS... Again, you're speaking of the majority, a group who will more often than not simply purchase what is familiar, not necessary what is good. I admit that PlayStation 2 is a decent console, but Dreamcast had a solid software line-up from day one. Furthermore, it maintained that level of quality and even raised the bar considerably in the two years that it was actively developed for in most regions. AGAIN, HOW GOOD A SYSTEM IS HAS A LOT MORE TO DO WITH JUST HOW GOOD THE GRAPHICS ARE. IT'S THE WHOLE PACKAGE THAT MAKES A GREAT SYSTEM. GREAT GRAPHICS, LOTS OF GAMES, GREAT CONTROLLER, GREAT EXTRAS, BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY. DC = GREAT GRAPHICS + DECENT AMOUNT OF GREAT GAMES. CONTROLLER IS SO SO. NO EXTRAS. PS2 = GREAT GRAPHICS + ENORMOUS GAME LIBRARY/MANY MORE GREAT A+ GAMES THAN THE DREAMCAST + BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY + DVD. CONTROLLER IS GREAT. GET MY POINT? Again, the size of the game library is a ridiculous point to bring up, as is the number of AAA titles. That's very, very obvious, and - again - I'd hope to God that PlayStation 2 would've managed to top the number of AAA titles in comparison to Dreamcast when it's been around for 3-4 times longer than Dreamcast. The controller thing's a matter of opinion. I've hated every rendition of the DualShock controller, personally. It's not for everyone. Backwards-compatibility isn't 100%, and Sony's attempts to improve the graphics in PlayStation titles with its half-assed texture smoothing was laughable. Despite owning a PlayStation 2, I still need to keep my PSone around, because certain PlayStation titles just won't play in PlayStation 2 (namely the slim one). So, your "point" is based on laughable comparisons and opinions. I'd say that I get your point. I'm certainly not agreeing with it, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevincal Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 The title of this thread SHOULD have been. "Dreamcast COULD HAVE been better than the PS2". If that were so, you would hear no bitching from me. OR I would even let slide... "Dreamcast was better than the PS2, until Gran Turismo 3". Because after GT3 came out, PS2 sales skyrocketed and the A+ titles really started to roll in... Then the DC died... Hmm... The DREAMcast couldn't do Gran Turismo 3 in its wildest DREAMS, atleast it wouldn't be near as good as the PS2 version. Not to mention all of the other kickass PS2 games that came after GT3 with even better graphics etc.. /thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 The title of this thread SHOULD have been. "Dreamcast COULD HAVE been better than the PS2". If that were so, you would hear no bitching from me. I think there would have been a lot less bitching had the thread been titled, "I liked the Dreamcast better than the PS2" Personal subjective opinions expressed as though they are "facts" are the biggest cause of flame wars in discussion forums then the DC died... Hmm... there's no HMMM about why the Dreamcast died - and it certainly wasn't as simple as "the PS2 had better technology that developers supported. It's well documented what nailed the Dreamcast. If you haven't read this article, I highly recommend it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/games...iews.microsoft1 http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/games...ation.microsoft The DREAMcast couldn't do Gran Turismo 3 in its wildest DREAMS, atleast it wouldn't be near as good as the PS2 version. I have no issue with claims that the PS2 has newer technology and has some strengths over the Dreamcast. I have no issue either with you guys pointing to the broad library and the number of A+++ titles you prefer on the PS2. But declaring what the Dreamcast can or can't do if you haven't programmed it is silly. Also, comparing a console that essentially died during it's second generation of titles to a console that's now on it's eighth generation of developers trying to push the machine isn't really fair either. I'm sure in 1982, people though that the Atari 2600 couldn't do streaming video either, but it's been demonstrated that it can. I'm sure in 1977, the programmers of COMBAT probably didn't think SPACE SHUTTLE, CALIFORNIA GAMES and SOLARIS were possible, but they were done. I'm not really sure we ever saw "the best" the Dreamcast could do because it wasn't pushed as hard as the PS2 was over eight generations of software releases. And the DVD accessory never came out, adding additional storage to the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) egad. Edited April 24, 2009 by DracIsBack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinski Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I have no issue with claims that the PS2 has newer technology and has some strengths over the Dreamcast. I have no issue either with you guys pointing to the broad library and the number of A+++ titles you prefer on the PS2. But declaring what the Dreamcast can or can't do if you haven't programmed it is silly. Also, comparing a console that essentially died during it's second generation of titles to a console that's now on it's eighth generation of developers trying to push the machine isn't really fair either. I'm sure in 1982, people though that the Atari 2600 couldn't do streaming video either, but it's been demonstrated that it can. I'm sure in 1977, the programmers of COMBAT probably didn't think SPACE SHUTTLE, CALIFORNIA GAMES and SOLARIS were possible, but they were done. I'm not really sure we ever saw "the best" the Dreamcast could do because it wasn't pushed as hard as the PS2 was over eight generations of software releases. And the DVD accessory never came out, adding additional storage to the mix. You know, your post brings to mind one rather interesting point: Developers really didn't need to try very hard to get respectable results out of Dreamcast. With PlayStation 2, on the other hand, developers had to do far more to get results that were even comparable to Dreamcast standards. Developers didn't need to push Dreamcast. I'm sure that Dreamcast could've had some even more breath-taking games had it been given time to mature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akator Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) The Dreamcast was innovative, bringing a lot of firsts to the industry. Subscription network access. Games priced at $50 or more. Tons of games that required non-standard controllers. Wow, those sure were exciting days, so unlike what we have now with other systems! The Dreamcast's above average game library wasn't so obvious at the time when games cost $50 or more each. I've been buying high priced games for decades and didn't like it in 1999 any more than I did in 1981. I don't care what kind of "comparative entertainment value" people use to justify the cost, I have never enjoyed an expensive game as much as a reasonably priced one. $30 is what I consider reasonable, $40 is my perceived limit for reasonable game prices, $50 is over the top. I like the Dreamcast. The system and its games had a lot of personality, which is a lot easier to appreciate now that I can buy Dreamcast games and accessories at reasonable prices. At the time, there was no question which system was better suited to my needs. The PS2 had a DVD player, which made it far better than the Dreamcast. The PS2 had more affordable games, which meant I could afford to own more games, which gave it more playability. The PS2 was backwards compatible with my PSX collection, so I didn't have to have both systems set up to enjoy their games. And that's why Sega couldn't even give away Dreamcasts, not even when the PS2 was sold out and unavailable. Now that history has been written, it's obvious that the Dreamcast had some great games -- but there are many more great games in the PS2 library. People may not need the PS2 DVD player anymore, but I think there's no question that the PS2 was the superior system. It delivered more of what people wanted both then and now. Even now that it's last-gen, the PS2 is still outselling the Dreamcast. People love the underdog, especially one that had the untapped potential of the Dreamcast. The system almost feels contemporary, and sometimes it's difficult to believe that the Dreamcast is 10 years old. Mix all of that up with some nostalgia, and it's obvious why people have been having a Dreamcast love-fest over the last few years. It doesn't have to be the best. It's like everything else in the world, someone will love it. Edited April 24, 2009 by akator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artlover Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Tons of games that required non-standard controllers. If by many, you mean 1 (2 if you include Japan) then you have a point. Other then Samba de Amigo and the Japanese only Densha de Go!, I can't recall any games that "required" special controllers. Most games that supported the use of optional non-standard controllers were still playable with the stock units. The PS2 had a DVD player, which made it far better than the Dreamcast. For some people maybe. But you take me for example. DVD player had no impact on me deciding to get one. Didn't care then, still don't care. Didn't buy it to watch movies. The PS2 had more affordable games, which meant I could afford to own more games Many games were in the 29.99 and 39.99 price range. Just like the PS2 had it's share of $50 games. The PS2 was backwards compatible with my PSX collection, so I didn't have to have both systems set up to enjoy their games. Wow, it took long enough to bring up backwards compatibility to the argument. Ok everyone, how many people actually care about BC? Hands up. {cuts hands off and throws them in a hole}. I have never cared about BC. To be honest, I don't like BC as I think it just represents both a waste of development time and a waste of system resources that could have been better used in making the new system just that much better. And that's why Sega couldn't even give away DreamcastsFor a system that was only around for a couple of years and still sold 10 million units.......It was quite successfull in this regard and even earned the title of "most successful hardware launch in history". Why the DC failed has already been answered by the people in the know. Saying the PS2 killed the DC is like saying ET killed the video game industry. It was just something that happened at a time when other things were going on. Sega was a company of total mismanagement and financial trouble. That Sega never went belly up and that the Dreamcast got made at all are both rather astounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) At the time, there was no question which system was better suited to my needs. The PS2 had a DVD player, which made it far better than the Dreamcast. The PS2 had more affordable games, which meant I could afford to own more games, which gave it more playability. The PS2 was backwards compatible with my PSX collection, so I didn't have to have both systems set up to enjoy their games. Not sure I remember either having more affordable games than the other? I remember buying expensive games for both and cheap games for both when they were new. I don't remember any difference in pricing when it came to games. The other points were the reason why I was interested in PS2. Three major things I think it had going for it were The Playstation brand (and muscle) behind it The built in DVD compatibility. IIRC, it was not much more expensive than DVD players themselves at the time. Having the PS2 was one of the first affordable ways to have DVD playback, similar to Blu-Ray now. In fact, I remember set tops dropping in price substantially *after* the PS2 took off. I still have my $400 Hitachi set top DVD player some way (pre PS2, obviously) The promise of compatibility. While history has since shown that few really uses it much, it was a powerful tick-box Put those things together and no wonder developers are all over it. We can talk about tech specs all we want but I don't think the PS2 ressonated as well as it did purely on capabilities. I think the above really helped drive it home And that's why Sega couldn't even give away Dreamcasts, not even when the PS2 was sold out and unavailable. With such good arguments, why spoil it with one of the biggest over-exagerations I've seen in this thread yet? Dreamcast sold almost 11 million units in its life. It's a misnomer that it "bombed". It sold well but not well enough for a cash-strapped company to afford to compete in a brutal market where consoles bled money and game production costs had gone through the roof. Again, read the links I posted. Even now that it's last-gen, the PS2 is still outselling the Dreamcast. You had to throw in a second silly argument! PS2 is still in production. The Dreamcast has been discontinued for 8 years. The PS2 is currently selling better than every other discontinued system too. Edited April 24, 2009 by DracIsBack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 For some people maybe. But you take me for example. DVD player had no impact on me deciding to get one. Didn't care then, still don't care. Didn't buy it to watch movies. I knew quite a few people where it was their first DVD player. Certainly, the PS2 helped DVD succeed and also helped bring mass market prices to regular DVDs players. Ok everyone, how many people actually care about BC? Hands up. {cuts hands off and throws them in a hole}. It would be interesting to have asked that question in two ways: - Who used it as a factor when considering to buy a PS2?; and - Who actually made use of it to any great extent when it was in the living room? I'd bet the first question would get a much more positive response than the second? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akator Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) Sure, what I said was extreme in a casual, conversational way. F-ing Spanish Inquisition. However, the gist of what I said was correct. I didn't take Sega up on their "free" Dreamcast offers, nor did anyone else I knew. Everyone I spoke with about the subject thought the Dreamcast was dead in the US within a year of its release, even people like myself who wanted it to succeed. Provide me with information to the contrary, that my experiences were unusual and that Steven Kent's book is wrong, and I'll acknowledge it. The Ultimate History of Video Games, Steven Kent, 2001, Page 584. "Sega crossed the one million units sold mark after only a few weeks following its September 1999 launch, but sales ground to a halt by the first of 2000 ... Sega dropped the price of Dreamcast to $149 — half the price of PlayStation 2. Sales jumped briefly, then dropped. Even offering free Dreamcasts with SegaNet did not move the quantity of units Sega needed to sell." Where is the figure of "tens of millions" of Dreamcasts sold coming from? There is no researched, printed information to back that up. After the PS2 launch, when Sony had a shortage of PS2s and Sega failed to fill the gap by selling Dreamcasts: The Ultimate History of Video Games, Steven Kent, 2001, Page 588. "Sega stumbled into the new year, having fallen far short of Moore's stated goal of 5 million Dreamcasts. Even giving Dreamcasts away as a premium to SegaNet subscribers, Sega had not been able to lift its US install base beyond 3 million units, and the worldwide install base was only at 6.5 million ... On January 24, 2001, Sega released a press release announcing the discontinuation of Dreamcast ... (page 599) It took Sega 22 months to sell 6.5 million Dreamcasts world wide. By comparison, Sony shipped 10 million PlayStation 2s in under 15 months, and its sales kept accelerating." So... now that we have things in context, I will say it again: And that's why Sega couldn't even give away Dreamcasts, not even when the PS2 was sold out and unavailable. Edited April 24, 2009 by akator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akator Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Here's some advertisements from EGM December 1999. The prices obviously fluctuate from one retailer to another. However, my experience was that Dreamcast games were on average more expensive. Interpret these ads however you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 zomg, useless flame war, wtf....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) The Ultimate History of Video Games, Steven Kent, 2001, Page 584."Sega crossed the one million units sold mark after only a few weeks following its September 1999 launch, but sales ground to a halt by the first of 2000 ... Sega dropped the price of Dreamcast to $149 — half the price of PlayStation 2. Sales jumped briefly, then dropped. Even offering free Dreamcasts with SegaNet did not move the quantity of units Sega needed to sell." Great book! The last sentence of your quote is the point I'm trying to make. When Sega entered the market with the Dreamcast, they were not financially ready for the market and what it had evolved to: Sega was in-debt up to their eyeballs when they launched the system The industry had changed from a "make a small profit on consoles and a big profit on games model" to a "lose a pile of money on consoles". Microsoft was the best example of this, with $4 billion more spent on the first XBox than it ever brought in. But Sega and Sony also lost a bunch of money while trying to build up volumes to eventually make profits. Game development costs had shot through the roof, making earning profits on games very risky as well. Sega had games like Shenmue which cost something like $60 million to make. Later, Nintendo would counter this problem and the above with the whole concept of the Wii. That's why the Dreamcast sold millions of consoles and yet Sega vanished from the market in a short amount of time. The Dreamcast sold decently but not fast enough for a company in financial straights to afford to continue. People owned them, people bought games and they moved decently relative to the real bombs it's often lumped with (ie. Jaguar, 3DO, Virtual Boy etc) Where is the figure of "tens of millions" of Dreamcasts sold coming from? There is no researched, printed information to back that up. No one said "tens of millions". What we said was just under 11 million over its life. http://www.gametunnel.com/good-enough-why-...one-article.php http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/11...es-of-all-time/ As for your ad, point taken. My experience at my local electronics boutique, Best Buy and Future was not the same. PS2 and Dreamcast games were generally about the same at those stores. Edited April 24, 2009 by DracIsBack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akator Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) I consider myself a Dreamcast fan. I enjoy the system greatly, as is obvious by the picture. I currently have my X-Arcade Tankstick hooked up to it. While the Dreamcast is my personal favorite when compared to the PS2, I'm not a fanboy. I know that based on objective and/or popular standards, the PS2 is the better system. It doesn't hurt my feelings, nor does it make me enjoy my Dreamcast any less. Edited April 24, 2009 by akator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Quoes from the Peter Moore interview: ----------------------------------------------- "The Dreamcast was an interesting beast. Sega was so financially strapped, and it had already launched in Japan to a sort of tepid, luke-warm reaction. These are big stakes games. I mean, when you're launching a games console, you need hundreds of millions of dollars to get it off the ground… and so the North American launch was the last best chance – Europe was going to be launching but there wasn't enough there to salvage what was going to be a tough situation with the PS2 looming 12 months out … The US was the last best chance of getting the Dreamcast up and running. We amassed a very strong line up of titles, but unfortunately, EA - God bless 'em – decided they weren't going to publish on Dreamcast. That forced me to build my own sports brand, called 2K – we came up with the name one night, because it was the Y2K period, we needed to get the packaging done and we couldn't come up with a name. So we just said, 'let's call it 2K sports'. It was the best we could come up with. Dreamcast was a phenomenal 18 months of pain, heartache, euphoria… We thought we had it, but then Playstation came out, that infamous issue of Newsweek with the Emotion Engine on the cover… and of course, EA didn't publish which left a big hole, not only in sports but in other genres. We ended up that Christmas period not being able to get to where we needed to be – we weren't far short, we just couldn't get that critical mass… It seemed that the European office weren't as confident as the American office… We [sega of America] knew we could win. It was just indicative of the complete lack of integration – the Dreamcast logo was blue in Europe instead of orange, the concept of a globalised brand, which we're now building here at EA Sports, just evaded the Japanese completely. And JF, who was the general manager in Europe, went his own way, had his own positioning. We had a very different positioning, we were very aggressive in the US – and it was a little challenging in Europe. There wasn't that, 'let's go and get them, we can win this battle'. You know, I loved the console wars and still do even though I'm no longer in the console business… the idea of being upfront, getting after Phil Harrison, getting after Kaz Hirai and then later getting after John Riccitiello… I think the consumer loves it, it adds publicity and it adds fire around the industry. And in those days we needed to because we didn't have the money … In the end it didn't work out. It was tough, but those were great days and I've never met anybody who regretted buying a Dreamcast. Soul Calibur anyone? We had a lot of content, a lot of fun and we had tremendous PR, and we got after it in a unique way – the 'Its thinking' campaign was a great campaign, we had these wacky 15-second spots on MTV, we launched on 9.9.99 at the MTV Music Awards, we hit the road with Linkin Park and Limp Bizkit of all people; the Family Values and Anger Management tours – we were a big brand. But then it all went pear-shaped in Christmas 2000. Okay, but let's go back to the hopeful years. You said you didn't have much money or much time, but you certainly seemed to make an impact. Oh yeah. I mean, I arrived in February and we were launching in September, so I had seven months to figure out, a) what the industry was and b) what the console and software were, and then build a marketing campaign. Which we did by April. In 60 days we came up with 'It's Thinking'. We filmed a huge ad spot in Vancouver, we went ten nights and did Apocalypse, a multimillion dollar TV spot (by ad firm Foote, Cone and Belding). It was this idea that the console was actually thinking, and it was bringing 747s down, it had this Black Rain-style look. We only ran that spot once on 9.9.99 during the video music awards and it became very viral - this is obviously a long time before YouTube. We had a tremendous 18 months. Dreamcast was on fire – we really thought that we could do it. But then we had a target from Japan that said – and I can't remember the exact figures – but we had to make N hundreds of millions of dollars by the holiday season and shift N millions of units of hardware, otherwise we just couldn't sustain the business. So on January 31 2001 we said Sega is leaving hardware – somehow I got to make that call, not the Japanese. I had to fire a lot of people, it was not a pleasant day. We were selling 50,000 units a day, then 60,000, then 100,000, but it was just not going to be enough to get the critical mass to take on the launch of PS2. It was a big stakes game. Sega had the option of pouring in more money and going bankrupt and they decided they wanted to live to fight another day. So going back to Dreamcast vs PS2, you felt the impetus slipping away… It was a horrible period because, all of a sudden, you could sense consumers thinking twice about Dreamcast. I was $199, it was the first online console, we had some great games – SoulCalibur, Sonic Adventure, Trickstyle, Ready 2 Rumble. When you look at them today, you chuckle, but they were on the cutting edge graphically at that time… But [sony] were brilliant at FUD – you know, fear uncertainty and doubt. It was a massive FUD campaign. The consumer thought twice and they started to read, 'can the Dreamcast make it?' It had a tough time in Europe, it had a really disastrous time in Japan. My job was… my personality was such that I'll go up and start being a little more on the front foot… It was like, 'well, what do you do?' You just do it yourself. You start talking, you don't wait for the Japanese to give you messaging – because PR is something they don't do very well, they just don't do that concept of messaging and having passion around the message – the only thing we could do was be passionate. But it was too little too late unfortunately. So you were at Sega for another two years after that… Yeah, my job was to transition the company from being a hardware company, which it had been for two decades, and off I go to Nintendo and Sony… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akator Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 No one said "tens of millions". What we said was just under 11 million over its life. http://www.gametunnel.com/good-enough-why-...one-article.php http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/11...es-of-all-time/ Thanks for the links. I noticed they are the sources for the Dreamcast Wikipedia entry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Good tidbits here too on Dreamcast, from this week's "history of Sega" article at IGN. http://retro.ign.com/articles/974/974695p9.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ From the very beginning, Stolar had been planning SEGA's next move. He knew that their next system would have to be completely different. The hardware had to be simple, easy to program for, and powerful. SEGA had learned their lesson with the Saturn. While they balked at Kalinske's ideas for the next-gen, history had quickly proven them wrong, and Stolar would carry a considerably greater influence. Kalinske speculates, "Coming from Sony after the PlayStation's early success might have given him more influence than I had." To create the system that would become the Dreamcast, SEGA split their hardware development into two teams, one headed by Genesis creator Hideki Sato (initially called "White Belt" and later "Katana"), and another "skunk works" project based in the United States (called "Black Belt" before being renamed "Dural"). The two projects would develop and compete independently, and SEGA would have their choice of the better system. In classic fashion, the American team used American components, building their candidate around 3dfx's chipsets, which were revolutionizing the PC gaming market. The Japanese team likewise kept its spec domestic, with a Hitachi CPU and NEC graphics chip. When 3dfx made their initial public offering, they divulged details of the project with SEGA, resulting in a spat that some speculate cost them the contract. Stolar holds firm that this is not the case. "It was really just the technology end of it." With the hardware settled upon, the system needed content. This was Stolar's mantra, and as painful as the Saturn's early death was, it gave SEGA the time and resources they needed to hit the ground running with their next system. Yuji Naka's Sonic Team got an early start on the completely reinvented 3D Sonic title that the Saturn so sorely lacked. Yu Suzuki pulled his Shenmue project off the Saturn, and began anew on new hardware that would truly do justice to his grand vision. To recapture the sports market that they needed in America, SEGA purchased Visual Concepts. Stolar had previously dealt with the company when they were working on the PlayStation's first Madden title, and although that project had been cancelled, he believed their company could compete with anything EA did. Courting developers would not be easy, but this was a field of expertise for Bernie. With attractive hardware, Namco, Capcom, and Midway soon got on board – all arcade game developers, who would bolster the system's reputation as a true arcade experience. But there was at least one company that would not sign on. To this day, many credit Electronic Arts' lack of support as the Dreamcast's undoing, and much mystery and speculation has surrounded the falling out. Stolar has been kind enough to illuminate the situation, once and for all: "[Former Electronic Arts CEO] Larry Probst is a dear friend of mine. Larry came to me and said, 'Bernie, we'll do Dreamcast games, but we want sports exclusivity.' I said, 'You want to be on the system with no other third-party sports games?' "I looked at him and said, 'You know what? I'll do it, but there's one caveat here: I just bought a company called Visual Concepts for $10 million, so you'll have to compete with them.' Larry says, 'No, you can't even put them on the system.' I said 'Then Larry, you and I are not going to be partners on this system.'" -- Bernie Stolar Despite later smack talk from EA against SEGA and the Dreamcast, Stolar always respected tough negotiation. "I have to applaud EA for asking for that," he admits, before fondly recalling another audacious EA negotiation. The deal fell through, but SEGA was confident that Visual Concepts could outdo even the great Madden franchise, and according to some critics, they were right. To help leverage their long-standing position as a leader in the arcade market, SEGA got an arcade version of the system ready early. Dubbed the NAOMI, they positioned it as an inexpensive successor to their Model 3 board, and made it their flagship system. SEGA had released arcade boards based on all of its previous consoles, but they were generally just used for inexpensive ports of popular console titles. NAOMI was different, eventually rivaling the Neo Geo as one of the most popular pieces of arcade hardware ever, not only for SEGA but third parties as well. Stolar had one more trick up his sleeve that would differentiate the Dreamcast from every console before it: He wanted to include a modem with every system. Ultima Online was showing just how powerful a medium online gaming could be, and Stolar wanted in on the ground floor. He fought hard with Japan to make his case. They didn't believe in the vision as much as he did, but they did things his way in the end. The Japanese launch of the Dreamcast came too soon, in November of 1998. Like so many Japanese launches, there wasn't much software, save for a mediocre, outsourced port of Virtua Fighter 3, which wasn't nearly as popular as its predecessors to begin with. Sonic Adventure followed a month later, giving a boost to the system just in time for Christmas, but it was a slow climb. The American launch, however, was epic. September 9, 1999 (9/9/99) is a date that will forever be remembered by SEGA fans. There were 17 titles to choose from, spanning all the major genres. NFL2K delivered a true-next gen football game, Soulcalibur was hailed as one of the great fighting games of all time, and Sonic Adventure helped SEGA's mascot reclaim his former glory. There were some duds in the lineup, but with so many choices, the Dreamcast could satisfy anyone. It was the most successful console launch in history, up to that point. SEGA was back on top. Trouble Below the Surface The Dreamcast's outlook seemed pretty good in 1999, but things had been changing at SEGA. Nakayama had stepped back to concentrate on arcade games, while vice president Shoichiro Irimajiri took control. Soon after, Nakayama left SEGA to pursue other business ventures. During the upheaval, Isao Okawa, Chairman of SEGA's parent company CSK, assumed a more active role in the company's business, eventually claiming the title of CEO for himself. "I had a relationship with Nakayama and [shoichiro] Irimajiri that was about constantly understanding vision," laments Stolar. "I just don't feel like I had that with Mr. Okawa." It may well be that Okawa's vision and Nakayama's were diametrically opposed. Nakayama wanted SEGA to be a great hardware company, and Mr. Okawa simply did not. Tom Kalinske affirms that this was the case even early in his tenure: "Okawa was telling [Nakayama] to get out of hardware; just become a software company; it's not worth it to keep fighting the hardware battle. He started saying that right from the beginning." This conflict may have doomed the Dreamcast right from the start. Without Nakayama at the helm, SEGA's top brass didn't believe in the platform as a long-term goal. Stolar, who had never had the relationship with Okawa that he did with Nakayama and Irimajiri, was ousted shortly after the Dreamcast launch and replaced with their head of marketing, Peter Moore. More competition was brewing on the horizon as well. Sony and Nintendo were anticipated by all, but Microsoft, the new generation's dark horse, surprised a few. It was no shock, however, to Stolar. Early in the Dreamcast's life, they came to SEGA "offering" to put Windows CE on the Dreamcast, a move that Stolar saw as a transparent Trojan horse to get into the hardware business. He explains his frustrations: "[Microsoft] brought a whole team of people in. They got to learn the business and then walk away. I said to sell them the company, and they should have, because then they could have gotten out of the hardware business clean. I knew [Microsoft President of Entertainment & Devices] Robbie Bach really well, and I said, 'Hey, let's just get this done.' [sighs] Those things happen in the world of business." -- Bernie Stolar His story is yet another missed opportunity that ignites the imagination. If Microsoft had picked up the Dreamcast, would we have seen a more effective marketing strategy? A more solid online plan? And would SEGA have been able to dodge the Sammy takeover? These are just a few more questions that will never be answered. SEGA pressed bravely onward all the same. In 2000, they decided to play to the strength of their creative talent by restructuring their teams into semi-autonomous studios with greater individual freedom. This helped to nurture a culture in which fans would bond with the games of specific creators, and ushered in one of the most creative periods in the company's history. The Dreamcast's life was fleeting, but it was saturated with memorable titles, most of which were completely new properties. Rather than rehashing past glories – most of which had been long forgotten by the public – they released ambitious, creative, colorful games that helped earn them a new generation of fans. Games like Crazy Taxi, Jet Grind Radio, and Shenmue are remembered today as defining games of their time. The novel virtual life sim Seaman served as one of the system's few major hits in Japan. The new series launched on the Dreamcast are too numerous to name. he PlayStation 2 dealt a devastating blow to Dreamcast, leveraging its DVD playback capabilities against Dreamcast's initially-superior library of games. With two more competitors on the way, the noose was quickly tightening. The Dreamcast slashed their price to $99, resulting in a healthy boost in sales, but it did nothing to alleviate the fact that SEGA was hemorrhaging money. Even with a number of million-selling games to their credit, they were losing too much money on hardware to make it back on the games. At the beginning of 2001, SEGA admitted defeat. After 18 years in the console business and only a few short years of real financial success, they were finally calling it quits. The Dreamcast ceased production in March of 2001, and the final units were cut to $50 before disappearing from stores. The announcement echoed Stolar's decision to leave the Saturn, but lacked the silver lining. As with the Saturn, SEGA and a handful of third parties put on a brave face, and games continued to ship in the US into the first half of 2002. By that time the GameCube and Xbox had made their way onto shelves, and the Dreamcast's last hope was gone. SEGA's last console maintained a cult following, and its relationship to the NAOMI arcade hardware ensured that a trickle of Japanese arcade ports would make their way to the system for five years after the last Dreamcast game landed on American shelves. Some of these games, like Border Down, TriZeal, and Under Defeat remain coveted collector's items. But SEGA had moved on. Without them, the Dreamcast was a ghost, and SEGA's fans would have to come to terms with a new chapter in the company's history or simply leave them behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) While the Dreamcast is my personal favorite when compared to the PS2, I'm not a fanboy. I know that based on objective and/or popular standards, the PS2 is the better system. It doesn't hurt my feelings, nor does it make me enjoy my Dreamcast any less. Having owned Dreamcast, XBox, GameCube and PS2, I'd like to think I'm not one either. At the end of the day whether someone prefers the Dreamcast or someone prefers the PS2, it's a matter of their personal, subjective taste. Opinions are opinions, not facts. Edited April 24, 2009 by DracIsBack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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