Commodore 64 vs Atari 800 Xl

[Bryan]

My power doesn't just go off then later decide to come back on, or just "brown out", it'll flick on and off repeatedly about 20 times and that's enough to confuse anything I swear there's just a guy at the local leccy sub station going off on off on off on weeeeeeee!

 

Anyone know what atariksi does for a day job...?

Chewbacca Power Company

[PeteD]

 

Well, it's not that simple. Pokey isn't like SID where you pick your settings and you get that sound. Pokey is a strange combination of timers and polynomial counters with some bizarre combinational logic added. Just knowing what the bits do doesn't help you predict what it will sound like unless you just want square waves or white noise. It turns out you can get many other noises and waveforms out of it with the right settings and I don't consider it a software trick but rather a real Pokey voice if you can set the registers once and have it maintain the sound indefinitely (although many effects consume more than one voice). Pitch correction is a software trick, however.

 

In other words, Pokey programming is a difficult and non-intuitive, but makes a wider variety of sounds than its specification would imply. See, everything on the Atari is hard work!

 

 

Grok that. Like you say, it's all a lot of work (either runtime or previous experimentation) to get it to do anything really good but it's without a doubt worth it on occasion. That's one of the reasons I offered to write the player, most of the stuff I've heard coming from the "experts" is unfortunately wrapped up in some sometimes badly out of tune music and as I mentioned earlier that's it for me, when I hear something out of tune I have to switch off. I'd much rather have the possibilities explained, write code, prove it to myself that certain things aren't just pipe dreams and then end up with a music player.

 

 

Pete

[Bryan]

Grok that. Like you say, it's all a lot of work (either runtime or previous experimentation) to get it to do anything really good but it's without a doubt worth it on occasion. That's one of the reasons I offered to write the player, most of the stuff I've heard coming from the "experts" is unfortunately wrapped up in some sometimes badly out of tune music and as I mentioned earlier that's it for me, when I hear something out of tune I have to switch off. I'd much rather have the possibilities explained, write code, prove it to myself that certain things aren't just pipe dreams and then end up with a music player.

 

 

Pete

I think different people have different sensitivity to pitch. I frequently post on AudioAsylum's vinyl board and we had a discussion a while back on how far a record has to be pressed off-center before the effect on pitch is bothersome. Some people notice a very slight amount (especially on piano) while others aren't ever bothered by it.

 

Personally, I'm sensitive to pitch and I consider much of the A8's music library to be almost unlistenable. The old AMS player was considered to be awesome back in the day, but in reality was pretty sour sounding. Tunes have greatly improved recently thanks to pitch correction tricks.

[potatohead]

...what we had as a kid.

 

Nah, doesn't always work... i had an 800XL to start with, in fact i've still got it. It's poorly now but i've got another one to keep it company. =-)

 

IMHO, a lot of this comes down to the time spent on the machines. Today, it still comes down to that in a lot of ways. Look at some of the people branching out, checking out the other hardware. Good stuff is gonna come from that.

 

Now, if we can just get some of the non-programmers taking up an assembler, that'd lead to even more good stuff. =-)

 

Seconded. I'm headed there slowly. Life consumes a lot right now.

 

I'm pitch sensitive too. I love POKEY for effects. I don't like music on it very much, but for a few of the better works we've heard with pitch correction and such tricks. Back in the day, SID tunes were (and still are) great!

 

IMHO, some Batari Basic type projects for the various computers would be good too. Kind of an assembly / higher level blend. Look at all the interesting VCS projects.

Edited May 4, 2010 by potatohead

[ANTIQ]

10 SOUND 0,127,10,8
20 SOUND 2,126,10,8
30 POKE 53768,5
40 STOP

 

Does anyone know the intention behind the thing called the high-pass filter?

[Bryan]

10 SOUND 0,127,10,8
20 SOUND 2,126,10,8
30 POKE 53768,5
40 STOP

 

Does anyone know the intention behind the thing called the high-pass filter?

Yes, the idea here is allow full shaping of noise effects. When you set a frequency for a noise channel, you affect the maximum rate at which the output can change providing a low-pass filtering effect. When you enable the high-pass filter, you can force changes to happen in the output at the rate of the associated channel which adds a high-pass filtering effect. This gives an unusual amount of control over how the noise will sound.

 

Using the high-pass filter with square waves at super-sonic speeds is what gives us the sawtooth waveform.

[Bryan]

I'm headed there slowly. Life consumes a lot right now.

 

Tell me about it. I have no fewer than 7 A8 projects in various states and no time to work on them. I'm no good at doing 15-30 minutes at a time. I have to have large blocks of time set aside to make any progress. If I ever hit Lotto, I'm setting up a fund to help frustrated retro-programmers.

[potatohead]

count me in on that!

 

Usually I get time. This year has been an unusually busy year. Kind of shut me down. Oh well, that means some extra dollars to buy drive emulation hardware for running stuff on the real deal.

 

For me, it's really about two hours. It takes half an hour to reconnect with the project, then an hour to really get anything done, and there is a shut down, save state half hour on the way out, so that I know what the heck the deal is next time.

[+remowilliams]

Sorry for clobbering the carnage in progress. It just kind of happened fast

 

Whoops. Yes the intent was to point out the larger layer of futility there in the 'discussion'

 

But if he doesn't want to smell any more posts at AA, so be it.

[+wood_jl]

Personally, I'm sensitive to pitch and I consider much of the A8's music library to be almost unlistenable. The old AMS player was considered to be awesome back in the day, but in reality was pretty sour sounding. Tunes have greatly improved recently thanks to pitch correction tricks.

 

The AMS player is still cool!!! But in a very, very, very retro kind of way. Yeah, you definitely have to pick and choose and throw out the songs that just don't sound right, and it definitely reveals limitations. But the program is SO COOL! I mean the little piano and the "colored voices pressing keys" was just a JOY to watch, and still is. I had assumed there'd be a SID-player for C64 that looks that way - with the little keyboard (or something) on the screen to go with the music. Never found it! Would have been totally awesome to have an AMS-style SID-player for C64.

[PeteD]

Personally, I'm sensitive to pitch and I consider much of the A8's music library to be almost unlistenable. The old AMS player was considered to be awesome back in the day, but in reality was pretty sour sounding. Tunes have greatly improved recently thanks to pitch correction tricks.

 

The AMS player is still cool!!! But in a very, very, very retro kind of way. Yeah, you definitely have to pick and choose and throw out the songs that just don't sound right, and it definitely reveals limitations. But the program is SO COOL! I mean the little piano and the "colored voices pressing keys" was just a JOY to watch, and still is. I had assumed there'd be a SID-player for C64 that looks that way - with the little keyboard (or something) on the screen to go with the music. Never found it! Would have been totally awesome to have an AMS-style SID-player for C64.

 

Pretty sure there has to be at least one SID editor/player with onscreen keyboard either as part of the input process for the editor and/or playback to give you something to watch. I know I've seen one and also quite a few demos that do the piano keyboard lighting up thing. There's just sooooooo many players and ridiculous amounts of demos to look through it's needle in a haystack time, unless someone else remembers a name..

 

*edit*

http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=2596

http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=18233

 

Pretty similar, neither is the one I was thinking of but I should've remembered DMC. (Thanks "Mr Foxy 'O'")

 

Pete

Edited May 6, 2010 by PeteD

[TMR]

The AMS player is still cool!!! But in a very, very, very retro kind of way. Yeah, you definitely have to pick and choose and throw out the songs that just don't sound right, and it definitely reveals limitations. But the program is SO COOL! I mean the little piano and the "colored voices pressing keys" was just a JOY to watch, and still is. I had assumed there'd be a SID-player for C64 that looks that way - with the little keyboard (or something) on the screen to go with the music. Never found it! Would have been totally awesome to have an AMS-style SID-player for C64.

 

Pretty sure there has to be at least one SID editor/player with onscreen keyboard either as part of the input process for the editor and/or playback to give you something to watch. I know I've seen one and also quite a few demos that do the piano keyboard lighting up thing. There's just sooooooo many players and ridiculous amounts of demos to look through it's needle in a haystack time, unless someone else remembers a name..

 

There's an on-screen keyboard in the DMC music editors and the second part of Escalate by Shape has one off the top of my head...

[PeteD]

 

 

There's an on-screen keyboard in the DMC music editors and the second part of Escalate by Shape has one off the top of my head...

 

You missed my edit

 

I think all demos should have as many flashing lights on screen as possible attempting to play in time with the music!

Edited May 6, 2010 by PeteD

[Bryan]

Personally, I'm sensitive to pitch and I consider much of the A8's music library to be almost unlistenable. The old AMS player was considered to be awesome back in the day, but in reality was pretty sour sounding. Tunes have greatly improved recently thanks to pitch correction tricks.

 

The AMS player is still cool!!! But in a very, very, very retro kind of way. Yeah, you definitely have to pick and choose and throw out the songs that just don't sound right, and it definitely reveals limitations. But the program is SO COOL! I mean the little piano and the "colored voices pressing keys" was just a JOY to watch, and still is. I had assumed there'd be a SID-player for C64 that looks that way - with the little keyboard (or something) on the screen to go with the music. Never found it! Would have been totally awesome to have an AMS-style SID-player for C64.

 

Today you could write an AMS player that wouldn't have the pitch problems...

[Audiophile]

Reading about the sid vs pokey stuff I have to put some words on this vs talking.

 

I always made music, started only serious when the Atari Falcon came. Sorry the Amiga could not handle my wishes at that time. Nowadays I use the PC with professional soundcard and professional software, but STILL I am 8 bit computerlover and honestly more Atari 800xl lover than c64.

About the sid vs pokey stuff I see a link to the studiosynthesizers I owned. I owned a Roland Juno 60 and Roland JX3P. Both are studioequipment.

The JX3P had more possibilities and one more voice, so I always thought that's better then the Juno 60, but boy I was wrong. The Juno 60 sounds much more powerfull and richer. I always connected computers to stereo amplifiers and I noticed the Pokey chip has more richer sound (combine the channels and you will be amazed even more) then the sid had. The Sid sounded more thin and lacks power even when it had basically seen more possibilities (or one more voice).

[PeteD]

SID, thin? Now you're talking crazy

 

Pete

[Audiophile]

SID, thin? Now you're talking crazy

 

Pete

 

Hmmmm more thin than pokey, or are you telling me my stereo amplifier is damaged? And no I do not use cheap speakers.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Audiophile

[Bryan]

You know what arguments I got in a lot as a kid?

 

(wait for it...)

 

Apple II vs. Anything.

 

I like Steve Wozniak. He's a very gifted engineer and he is largely responsible for ushering in the PC era... but if you read what he says about designing computers, it's all about the art of minimalism. Apple didn't develop custom ASICs because Woz could get basic functionality using off-the-shelf logic parts. That's quite an achievement but it resulted in a pretty crude computer. No sound hardware (just a speaker connected to an IO port), no sprites, no scrolling, none of the things that help make a good action game. At least it had slots so you could work around some of the limitations.

 

And the price! The cost of entry for a II was over $1K and a usable configuration was between $2K-$4K. You gotta give Apple credit because they built a solid image a sold tons of them. But everyone I knew with an Apple was totally snotty. Everything else was a piece of crap toy compared to their glorious system. I think part of the standard sales pitch was to convince people they were buying a Mercedes and everything else was an old Chevy. Maybe they needed something to feel good about while the rest of us played colorful fast scrolling games with music.

 

There was some good Apple software and it was well supported, but it's got to be one of the hardest systems to create anything decent on. The Apple II was a groundbreaking machine when it was released in '77 (two years before the much more capable Atari 800) but I wonder how many AA members outside the US have even seen one.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Bryan

[akator]

And the price! The cost of entry for a II was over $1K and a usable configuration was between $2K-$4K. You gotta give Apple credit because they built a solid image a sold tons of them. But everyone I knew with an Apple was totally snotty. Everything else was a piece of crap toy compared to their glorious system. I guess they needed something to feel good about while the rest of us played colorful fast scrolling games with music.

 

I wasn't snotty. By the time we had an Apple II+, the Apple IIe was out. Sure, the Apple II was a minimalist computer sold for a premium price, and yes, I had friends with Atari computers that I dreamed of owning. Still, years later we had an Apple IIc and I was still using it while my friends with Atari computers where whining about how things had turned out badly for them. By 1986 even the majority of my C64 friends had stopped using their computers... which I couldn't understand, because I would go to their homes and show them how cool their computer was...

 

But "snotty" Apple II owners? I only met a few, the rest were like everyone else. They wanted cool games and software to enjoy, and were pissed when they couldn't get the same cool games that were available on other computers. I heard the Apple II, Apple II+, Apple IIe, and Apple IIc referred to as crap on a regular basis. There was no glory if you had an Apple II computer at home.

 

There was some good Apple software, but it's got to be one of the hardest systems to create anything decent on.

 

Yes. At 12-13, I learned to code in hex to make the Apple II do things that were otherwise impossibly slow. While I do very little code now, it's still very easy for me to pick up higher programming languages because it is sooooo much easier. Similarly, I have the utmost respect for homebrew developers who push old hardware to limits no one could have imagined "way back then."

 

The Apple II was a groundbreaking machine when it was released in '77 (two years before the much more capable Atari 800) but I wonder how many AA members outside the US have even seen one.

 

Again, there is no question that the A8 computers were amazing. Trouble is, I wasn't allowed to have one because it "wasn't a real computer," and "a waste-of-time game machine." Same reason I didn't have a C64 as a teenager, the perception of my parents was that it was a waste of time.

 

I have seen many, many Apple II computers. In 1985, when my friends and I were done with working at our summer job, we used to go to a college computer lab and play Apple II games until they closed. As "minimalist" as the Apple II series was, it provided all of us with years of enjoyment -- even with green screens. We didn't have a local arcade, and the Apple II lab was the closest we could get without a car.

 

Sure, there were the awesome Atari and Commodore computers that were better for gaming, but we took advantage of what was available...

Edited May 6, 2010 by akator

[Audiophile]

You know what arguments I got in a lot as a kid?

 

(wait for it...)

 

Apple II vs. Anything.

 

I like Steve Wozniak. He's a very gifted engineer and he is largely responsible for ushering in the PC era... but if you read what he says about designing computers, it's all about the art of minimalism. Apple didn't develop custom ASICs because Woz could get basic functionality using off-the-shelf logic parts. That's quite an achievement but it resulted in a pretty crude computer. No sound hardware (just a speaker connected to an IO port), no sprites, no scrolling, none of the things that help make a good action game. At least it had slots so you could work around some of the limitations.

 

And the price! The cost of entry for a II was over $1K and a usable configuration was between $2K-$4K. You gotta give Apple credit because they built a solid image a sold tons of them. But everyone I knew with an Apple was totally snotty. Everything else was a piece of crap toy compared to their glorious system. I think part of the standard sales pitch was to convince people they were buying a Mercedes and everything else was an old Chevy. Maybe they needed something to feel good about while the rest of us played colorful fast scrolling games with music.

 

There was some good Apple software and it was well supported, but it's got to be one of the hardest systems to create anything decent on. The Apple II was a groundbreaking machine when it was released in '77 (two years before the much more capable Atari 800) but I wonder how many AA members outside the US have even seen one.

 

I worked with apple in the 90s in a computer company and I learned a lot in that time. Apple could do some amazing things. I also know that many many records in the housemusic scene in the 90s had a carton cover drawn on the apple. Also many musicians swear by apple. For what I have seen and discovered those machines were great!

[Bryan]

Again, there is no question that the A8 computers were amazing. Trouble is, I wasn't allowed to have one because it "wasn't a real computer," and "a waste-of-time game machine." Same reason I didn't have a C64 as a teenager, the perception of my parents was that it was a waste of time.

What Atari and Commodore were lacking was someone like Steve Jobs. He crafted an image around Apple that has kept them around to this day. Commodore succeeded because their products were irresistible at their price, but IMO Atari failed at telling people why they should want a 400 or 800.

[PeteD]

SID, thin? Now you're talking crazy

 

Pete

 

Hmmmm more thin than pokey, or are you telling me my stereo amplifier is damaged? And no I do not use cheap speakers.

 

Can you give some examples of things you're using to compare? The thing with SID is it's capable of a huge variety of sounds and is well know for being fatter (or is that phatter) for bass sounds. It all depends on what envelopes are used, what waveforms, what filters etc.

 

I think POKEY sounds a little more powerful and more "machine like" but I wouldn't say SID is thin unless that's what the musician wanted.

 

 

Pete

[Bryan]

I worked with apple in the 90s in a computer company and I learned a lot in that time. Apple could do some amazing things. I also know that many many records in the housemusic scene in the 90s had a carton cover drawn on the apple. Also many musicians swear by apple. For what I have seen and discovered those machines were great!

 

The Apple was well supported and had the best library of professional apps, but compared to the graphics and sound capability of the A8 and 64, it loses by a mile.

[PeteD]

I worked with apple in the 90s in a computer company and I learned a lot in that time. Apple could do some amazing things. I also know that many many records in the housemusic scene in the 90s had a carton cover drawn on the apple. Also many musicians swear by apple. For what I have seen and discovered those machines were great!

 

The Apple was well supported and had the best library of professional apps, but compared to the graphics and sound capability of the A8 and 64, it loses by a mile.

 

It got Prince of Persia though

[Bryan]

It got Prince of Persia though

Yup. It probably had the fastest disk drive I think I've seen on an 8-bit, too.