Please help with the ColecoVision Opgrade Module

[opcode]

I know a few of you like updates so here is it:

 

The following components have been added to the schematics:

- Slot selector (selects between cartridge and MegaRAM, which share the same address space)

- MegaRAM (128KB, emulates cartridge)

- Joystick ports

- Cartridge slot

- Power

- Reset (using IC)

 

What is still missing:

- CV PSG

- AY-3-8910

- YM2151

- M6295 (in case we end using it)

- IDE or SD card

- Expansion port (not exactly the same as the original one)

 

I must confess that I am really excited about this standalone thing. Soon I should start designing the first PCB. Since I am not an electronic engineer per se, I have ordered a few books about PCB design so I can upgrade my knowledge. It is going to be a very tricky project, but I believe that if we are passionate enough we can overcome any challenge. Remember that first and foremost I am also a CV fan, so the idea of a new CV is very exciting to me.

Anyways, I have been giving it some thinking and I believe it makes more sense to move the target date for the CV2 late 2010. There is still a lot to do, PCBs to create, a lot of testing, firmware, etc. And because of that I shouldnt have any new game till there. I think it is a small price to pay for something so unique like that we are planning…

Keep you guys informed.

 

Edit: As a ColecoVision fan, and as someone that wanted to get an ADAM back in the 80s but was unable because the thing died before I had the chance, I would love to see a computer version of our planned upgrade. Perhaps some of the ADAM fans/users here could pursue that, but to be honest I am not holding my breath. I would love to give that a try myself, but then I suppose I would need another lifespan or a clone... Anyways, in the very remote case someone here wants to pursue the idea of an “EVE” system please let me know... (and in case you think 8 bit computers are useless, check this video of a MSX Turbo-R running SymbOS, a multitasking GUI type OS for Z80 with V9958 video:

)

Yeah, right, it cannot run MS Word, but it is pretty cool anyways…

Edited September 1, 2009 by opcode

[opcode]

Good news: the first PCB arrived... kind of... and that is the bad news: I was left with just a notice to go pick up the PCB tomorrow...

[Pixelboy]

Edit: As a ColecoVision fan, and as someone that wanted to get an ADAM back in the 80s but was unable because the thing died before I had the chance, I would love to see a computer version of our planned upgrade. Perhaps some of the ADAM fans/users here could pursue that, but to be honest I am not holding my breath. I would love to give that a try myself, but then I suppose I would need another lifespan or a clone... Anyways, in the very remote case someone here wants to pursue the idea of an “EVE” system please let me know... (and in case you think 8 bit computers are useless, check this video of a MSX Turbo-R running SymbOS, a multitasking GUI type OS for Z80 with V9958 video:

)

Yeah, right, it cannot run MS Word, but it is pretty cool anyways…

Didn't you reinsert the Compact Flash drive into the OM's design? With the CF drive included, 24K of RAM and 128K of supplementary RAM (the MegaRAM), all you really need is a keyboard (and perhaps a mouse, optionally). Beyond that, all that's needed is a DOS-like (or perhaps even Windows-like) operating system to manage files on the CF (which is already part of your plan for the OM's BIOS anyway, if I'm not mistaken).

 

A BASIC interpreter could be offered as a regular 32K CV cartridge, but beyond BASIC, I don't think there's any point in making software for this "computer", since we have PCs and Macs today that are a million times more powerful and user-friendly for doing regular computer-based tasks. Well, perhaps a NotePad-style text editor and/or a simple paint program would be nice, at least...

 

If it was up to me, I would just devise a way to plug the ADAM's keyboard into the CV2, since that keyboard is probably one of the best parts of the ADAM. A printer would be overkill, since this would be a toy computer, and besides, if you want to print something you made on the CV2, just put it on a CF cart, transfer it on a PC or Mac, and print it with your modern printer.

 

All this to say that I don't think turning the CV2 into a full-fledged computer would be all that hard, as long as you keep design specs simple, and expectations low.

[opcode]

Didn't you reinsert the Compact Flash drive into the OM's design? With the CF drive included, 24K of RAM and 128K of supplementary RAM (the MegaRAM), all you really need is a keyboard (and perhaps a mouse, optionally). Beyond that, all that's needed is a DOS-like (or perhaps even Windows-like) operating system to manage files on the CF (which is already part of your plan for the OM's BIOS anyway, if I'm not mistaken).

 

A BASIC interpreter could be offered as a regular 32K CV cartridge, but beyond BASIC, I don't think there's any point in making software for this "computer", since we have PCs and Macs today that are a million times more powerful and user-friendly for doing regular computer-based tasks. Well, perhaps a NotePad-style text editor and/or a simple paint program would be nice, at least...

 

If it was up to me, I would just devise a way to plug the ADAM's keyboard into the CV2, since that keyboard is probably one of the best parts of the ADAM. A printer would be overkill, since this would be a toy computer, and besides, if you want to print something you made on the CV2, just put it on a CF cart, transfer it on a PC or Mac, and print it with your modern printer.

 

All this to say that I don't think turning the CV2 into a full-fledged computer would be all that hard, as long as you keep design specs simple, and expectations low.

Actually you would need more than just a keyboard. You need lots of memory, otherwise there is no point in creating a computer version. Then a real time clock IC, for keeping the date and time. Expansion slots would be great too. And to get really powerful and professional, programmable timer, DMA controller and interrupt controller. Now that would make a first class computer. I don't know about BASIC, nobody cares about programing languages anymore. I think a nice GUI like SymbOS would be cooler...

[Pixelboy]

Actually you would need more than just a keyboard. You need lots of memory, otherwise there is no point in creating a computer version. Then a real time clock IC, for keeping the date and time. Expansion slots would be great too. And to get really powerful and professional, programmable timer, DMA controller and interrupt controller. Now that would make a first class computer. I don't know about BASIC, nobody cares about programing languages anymore. I think a nice GUI like SymbOS would be cooler...

I'm not sure, but I think you and I are talking about two completely different things. You seem to be talking about a completely distinct version of the hardware, like the stand-alone ADAM is distinct from the CV, while I'm talking about using the CV2 itself as a toy computer, with a keyboard and mouse plugged into the unit instead of regular CV joysticks.

[opcode]

Actually you would need more than just a keyboard. You need lots of memory, otherwise there is no point in creating a computer version. Then a real time clock IC, for keeping the date and time. Expansion slots would be great too. And to get really powerful and professional, programmable timer, DMA controller and interrupt controller. Now that would make a first class computer. I don't know about BASIC, nobody cares about programing languages anymore. I think a nice GUI like SymbOS would be cooler...

I'm not sure, but I think you and I are talking about two completely different things. You seem to be talking about a completely distinct version of the hardware, like the stand-alone ADAM is distinct from the CV, while I'm talking about using the CV2 itself as a toy computer, with a keyboard and mouse plugged into the unit instead of regular CV joysticks.

 

Man, you just gave me the most incredible idea... Indeed I was thinking in terms of a new version of the hardware, just like the ADAM expands the CV. But now you mentioned it, if we connect a PS2 keyboard to the OM/CV2, and... we add BASIC... like the MSX BASIC, and the BASIC Compiler, which is a separate cartridge, but we have the MegaCart, so no problem... we get a simple development system for hobbyists. And we have CF, so saving and sharing your programs would be easy. The keyboard could plug to the I/O port (you know, the port that goes to the PSG), using an adaptor...

Cool....

[Bill Loguidice]

Man, you just gave me the most incredible idea... Indeed I was thinking in terms of a new version of the hardware, just like the ADAM expands the CV. But now you mentioned it, if we connect a PS2 keyboard to the OM/CV2, and... we add BASIC... like the MSX BASIC, and the BASIC Compiler, which is a separate cartridge, but we have the MegaCart, so no problem... we get a simple development system for hobbyists. And we have CF, so saving and sharing your programs would be easy. The keyboard could plug to the I/O port (you know, the port that goes to the PSG), using an adaptor...

Cool....

 

If there was a way to use ADAM SmartBasic or Sega SC-3000 BASIC as the foundation and just add extensions, all the better, as then we'd be able to run all of those programs, as well as create new, enhanced ones. Of course ANY good form of BASIC would be awesome.

[Pixelboy]

Man, you just gave me the most incredible idea... Indeed I was thinking in terms of a new version of the hardware, just like the ADAM expands the CV. But now you mentioned it, if we connect a PS2 keyboard to the OM/CV2, and... we add BASIC... like the MSX BASIC, and the BASIC Compiler, which is a separate cartridge, but we have the MegaCart, so no problem... we get a simple development system for hobbyists. And we have CF, so saving and sharing your programs would be easy. The keyboard could plug to the I/O port (you know, the port that goes to the PSG), using an adaptor...

Cool....

Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking.

 

So we're looking at a simple adaptor to connect a PS2 keyboard to the PSG I/O port, similar to the adaptor we were talking about earlier for supporting the Atari 2600 paddles for Arkanoid. Unless I'm missing something, this proposed adaptor could (and really should) sport two connectors, one for a PS2 keyboard, and the other for a PS2 mouse. Because even the simplest development system will definately be 100 times more fun to use with a mouse, especially for kids who are already familiar with today's computers with modern GUIs.

[Pixelboy]

If there was a way to use ADAM SmartBasic or Sega SC-3000 BASIC as the foundation and just add extensions, all the better, as then we'd be able to run all of those programs, as well as create new, enhanced ones. Of course ANY good form of BASIC would be awesome.

Hmmm... SmartBASIC has its strengths and its weaknesses. One weakness I see is the really weird graphic modes (3/4 graphics, 1/4 text area at the bottom), which may be hard to reproduce on the CV2. I think it would be better to design our own BASIC language, which would be customized around the capabilities of the CV2's V9958 graphic chip, and the other components of interest, like the PSG chip and its associated IO port.

 

A Z80 assembly compiler (perhaps even with a simplified IDE) could also be interesting, although that would be a more long-term project.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Pixelboy

[Bill Loguidice]

If there was a way to use ADAM SmartBasic or Sega SC-3000 BASIC as the foundation and just add extensions, all the better, as then we'd be able to run all of those programs, as well as create new, enhanced ones. Of course ANY good form of BASIC would be awesome.

Hmmm... SmartBASIC has its strengths and its weaknesses. One weakness I see is the really weird graphic modes (3/4 graphics, 1/4 text area at the bottom), which may be hard to reproduce on the CV2. I think it would be better to design our own BASIC language, which would be customized around the capabilities of the CV2's V9958 graphic chip, and the other components of interest, like the PSG chip and its associated IO port.

 

A Z80 assembly compiler (perhaps even with a simplified IDE) could also be interesting, although that would be a more long-term project.

 

The other advantage to SmartBASIC though is having good compatibility with Applesoft BASIC. Too true though about the pitfalls, and certainly as long as it's well documented, no loss in having a new BASIC language, particularly since it would be a second tier benefit for most users.

[youki]

I would keep things "simple". Because if you add feature on feature you will never complete the project! and we wont have our CV2 before september 2037.

 

If you think to the possibility to do also an kind of ADAM 2 , i guess you will have to think about for instance put an hardrive controller, Sd Card reader, usb port etc...

I guess you will have to develop a new or enhance the BIOS . Create a new OS or port SymbOS etc..etc... It seems to be a never ending work , mainly for one personne!

 

In addition more you add things, more potential bug you add. More testing is required....

 

But i'm very happy you seems very motivated for the CV2 !!!

 

So no hope to have a CV2 for Christmas 2009 ? I had already put it on my Christmas list!!

[Bill Loguidice]

I would keep things "simple". Because if you add feature on feature you will never complete the project! and we wont have our CV2 before september 2037.

 

If you think to the possibility to do also an kind of ADAM 2 , i guess you will have to think about for instance put an hardrive controller, Sd Card reader, usb port etc...

I guess you will have to develop a new or enhance the BIOS . Create a new OS or port SymbOS etc..etc... It seems to be a never ending work , mainly for one personne!

 

In addition more you add things, more potential bug you add. More testing is required....

 

But i'm very happy you seems very motivated for the CV2 !!!

 

So no hope to have a CV2 for Christmas 2009 ? I had already put it on my Christmas list!!

 

Feature creep is a very real danger in any project, but I think adding a few additional basic options, as long as they don't add much complexity or cost, makes a lot of sense. No one says the BASIC language or anything else needs to be ready on launch, but being able to plug in a PS2 keyboard and maybe a keyboard and mouse, seems like a very practical thing if you're able to add a programming cartridge at a later date. I think it's important to keep in mind that there are certain basic features in this design like the CF card that give this thing incredible flexibility, and it would be quite the shame not to be able to tap some of that potential on a basic level, such as adding the keyboard/mouse ports. Of course I'm a mostly non-technical outsider, so what do I know, but as a major collector and user of this type of stuff, I can certainly say if something is able to be done in this one shot at doing it, why not, particularly if it's a feature or option that doesn't need immediate support that would delay the thing indefinitely.

[Pixelboy]

Feature creep is a very real danger in any project, but I think adding a few additional basic options, as long as they don't add much complexity or cost, makes a lot of sense. No one says the BASIC language or anything else needs to be ready on launch, but being able to plug in a PS2 keyboard and maybe a keyboard and mouse, seems like a very practical thing if you're able to add a programming cartridge at a later date. I think it's important to keep in mind that there are certain basic features in this design like the CF card that give this thing incredible flexibility, and it would be quite the shame not to be able to tap some of that potential on a basic level, such as adding the keyboard/mouse ports. Of course I'm a mostly non-technical outsider, so what do I know, but as a major collector and user of this type of stuff, I can certainly say if something is able to be done in this one shot at doing it, why not, particularly if it's a feature or option that doesn't need immediate support that would delay the thing indefinitely.

The I/O port will definately be included in the CV2's design, there's no question about it. The only question is the shape that the keyboard/mouse adaptor would take, and how the CV2 would accept input from such hardware. It may not be hard to support a keyboard and mouse, but it may not be trivial either... Eduardo? Comments?

[Bill Loguidice]

Is one or two USB ports in lieu of other types of ports impractical or have license issues? Then pretty much anything could be plugged in in the future.

[opcode]

Ok, lets start with the good news first: guess what is in my desk? Yeah, the OM PCB.

It looks raw, sure, I didn't order a soldering mask, and I was more concerned with logic aspect then electric details. Anyways I should start to assemble it tonight.

About keyboard and mouse, we can go the old way, using an i8042, just like the PC. We can interface that to the I/O port, no problem.

About BASIC, I don't know any BASIC for Z80 more complete and powerful than the MSX BASIC. In fact it could well be the most advanced 8-bit BASIC ever, and completely bug free. And of course it supports all the V9958, PSG functions. There is even an extension for the YM2151 (created by Yamaha themselves). But the best: there is an official compiler for the MSX BASIC, which makes programs run like 10 times faster. As probably you know most if not all 8 bit BASICs were interpreted, not compiled...

I know that a custom BASIC would be better, but unless someone wants to pursue that, I would go with the MSX-BASIC. And release it as a free download. You would then just need to copy it to the CF and the BASIC would load itself to the MegaRAM. No cartridge needed.

[Pixelboy]

Ok, lets start with the good news first: guess what is in my desk? Yeah, the OM PCB.

It looks raw, sure, I didn't order a soldering mask, and I was more concerned with logic aspect then electric details. Anyways I should start to assemble it tonight.

About keyboard and mouse, we can go the old way, using an i8042, just like the PC. We can interface that to the I/O port, no problem.

About BASIC, I don't know any BASIC for Z80 more complete and powerful than the MSX BASIC. In fact it could well be the most advanced 8-bit BASIC ever, and completely bug free. And of course it supports all the V9958, PSG functions. There is even an extension for the YM2151 (created by Yamaha themselves). But the best: there is an official compiler for the MSX BASIC, which makes programs run like 10 times faster. As probably you know most if not all 8 bit BASICs were interpreted, not compiled...

I know that a custom BASIC would be better, but unless someone wants to pursue that, I would go with the MSX-BASIC. And release it as a free download. You would then just need to copy it to the CF and the BASIC would load itself to the MegaRAM. No cartridge needed.

Are MSX BASIC and the compiler open source projects, so to speak, or are there copyright owners we would need to worry about?

[opcode]

Are MSX BASIC and the compiler open source projects, so to speak, or are there copyright owners we would need to worry about?

 

Funny you ask that...

Of course they aren't open source, but I suppose that as long as we don't ask money for it we should be safe. I believe the person downloading the software should worry if he/she is legally entitled to use it or not.

See, the whole computer thing isn't something I want to actively pursue as I indicated previously. It is something I would do for fun, as long as it doesn't take much of my time... As you keep saying, I have too much in my plate already, so something like that. Lets keep focus..

[youki]

, I don't know any BASIC for Z80 more complete and powerful than the MSX BASIC.

 

Did you ever try the Locomotive 's Basic 1.4 or the Mallard's Basic?

 

The Locomotive's basic was the basic built in with the AMSTRAD CPC serie (Z80) , the 1.4 is the lastest release you can find on CPC+ .

The Mallard's basic is derivated from the locomotive ones, it was provided with AMSTRAD PCW computers.

 

I used lot of basic back in time. And on Z80 the Locomotive is my favorite. But the Microsoft Basic on MSX is very good too.

[King_Salamon]

4.7V is a good guess, but I would like to be sure. The ADAM schematics aren't clear enough.

I cannot believe that I will need to buy an ADAM just for that... But then, I always wanted an ADAM... Perhaps after the CV2 I should try to design the EVE computer...

 

EDIT: It just occurred me a few minutes ago: with the V9958 it would be possible to create or port vector games. The V9958 is bitmapped and capable of drawing lines by hardware. Quite fast... Coupled with the 7MHz Z80 it would be possible to recreate games like Tempest or Star Wars... or something completely new...

 

Wait a second... TEMPEST with the Opgrade Module? If you plan on making Tempest for the ColecoVision (via OM) you can count me in for a copy! Star Wars too!! (Even though there is a copy of that one available) But wow... TEMPEST?!?!? Excited!!

[King_Salamon]

Ok, lets start with the good news first: guess what is in my desk? Yeah, the OM PCB.

It looks raw, sure, I didn't order a soldering mask, and I was more concerned with logic aspect then electric details. Anyways I should start to assemble it tonight.

About keyboard and mouse, we can go the old way, using an i8042, just like the PC. We can interface that to the I/O port, no problem.

About BASIC, I don't know any BASIC for Z80 more complete and powerful than the MSX BASIC. In fact it could well be the most advanced 8-bit BASIC ever, and completely bug free. And of course it supports all the V9958, PSG functions. There is even an extension for the YM2151 (created by Yamaha themselves). But the best: there is an official compiler for the MSX BASIC, which makes programs run like 10 times faster. As probably you know most if not all 8 bit BASICs were interpreted, not compiled...

I know that a custom BASIC would be better, but unless someone wants to pursue that, I would go with the MSX-BASIC. And release it as a free download. You would then just need to copy it to the CF and the BASIC would load itself to the MegaRAM. No cartridge needed.

 

Sexy!! Drool...

 

So how goes the prototype? Did you build it yet? This is so exciting!

 

By the way... I will take one OM and one CV2 please!

[Murph74]

Not sure "sexy" is the word I'd use, but it IS very exciting.

 

While I like the ideas being discussed, I still reserve judgment til the product is finish- but think it's sound less and less like a ColecoVision again.

[opcode]

Sexy!! Drool...

 

So how goes the prototype? Did you build it yet? This is so exciting!

 

By the way... I will take one OM and one CV2 please!

 

Do you believe I forgot to order the flash memory? Actually I realized about the memory on Monday and ordered it online, but it's probable it won't be here until next week. In the meantime I will check all the PCB traces and solder all the other components in place (using sockets when possible).

The next version of the OM (or the next PCB I will order) will include 3 new components: slot selector, MegaRAM and IDE interface. That completes which I call the "base" module (the PCB I just got includes expanded RAM, BIOS XP, PSG and I/O). The schematics for the base module with all the functionality I mentioned here is already done, I just want to test the current PCB first to make sure I didn't make any mistake with the first set of features. Anyways, this base module would be an option for release, with the advantage it could be available early next year. It has everything the CV2 should have, except the advanced A/V features.

So what could we do with this "base" module? It can run all the games I have in the pipeline. The IDE (with Compact Flash cards) coupled with the MegaRAM would allow any CV ROM image to be loaded and run, so you could play any CV game you want without cartridges. The IDE also allows for save games, screenshots, cheat codes, patching and more. All those features should be available from the BIOS XP GUI (aka graphic user interface).

The other feature I am excited about is the I/O port. That could have many functions too: advanced controllers connection, the PC keyboard mentioned above, connection between two or more CV, connection between a CV and a PC (and thus the internet) and more.

[ten-four]

Hi Eduardo...

 

Do you have any new pictures for your Module ?...

[opcode]

Hi Eduardo...

 

Do you have any new pictures for your Module ?...

 

I have the board assembled, the only missing IC is the flash memory for the BIOS, and you know, no BIOS, no boot.. Still waiting for the IC...

I can post pictures here once I get home...

[+remowilliams]

Wow, the feature list sounds awesome. Can't wait to see more on this one!