Rotary Controllers

[SwinginDick]

 

T3k would be cool with a rotary, but a) I don't think he included code for them, and b) where on earth would you find nuon-compatible plugs? let alone the custom chips used to encode the data to the appropriate serial stream. I suppose the protocol could be reverse engineered and the chips replaced with off the shelf parts, but the plugs alone would make such a project a nightmare.

 

 

 

I had a brief posting "chat" with Minter about this. Apparently, the nuon controllers have a built-in ability to accept a grey-code encoder somewhere on the main MCU. However, the few companies that made the controllers never bothered to put the spinner on. The MCU in the controller is a custom part and (surprise!) no one has any idea where the specs are for it. Minter said that he had a controller modified with a spinner "somewhere" and offered to send it to me so I could figure out how to make more, but I never heard back from him. And, I really never followed up.

 

For this, and for a basic B2K spinner, I was thinking about adding a simple MCU that would read the encoder and then modulate the left and right button inputs accordingly. I think I discussed this on another thread in here somewhere and was cautioned that it wouldn't work well, which may be the case, but I'm a pretty tenacious bastard and I'll probably try it anyway.

 

Back to T3K - since the game is so insane (almost unplayable in a standard Tempest kind of way) the button-based control is OK. I'm not sure that a spinner would really help all that much, although there seems to be a demand for it.

 

-Rick

[SwinginDick]

There has been a modded controller with a vcs paddle on the back of a standard Jaguar controller with a switch to switch between the driving wheel and the d-pad. You made the Chaos Reins rotaries correct?

 

Correct.

 

I know many people like the Jedi Jeff rotary , which is hard as hell to locate and carries a premium when found. It is unlike the rest cause its not made from the Jaguar controller shell. My favorite personally is the Chaos Reins,but all of them are nicely built and do the job.

 

A B2K rotary would be AWESOME! JAGUAR RULES!

 

Thanks!

 

I've never seen a Jedi Jeff rotary. I've played with the idea of making a not-based-on-a-Jag-controller spinner, but every time I do the math, it becomes such a costly beastie that I can't imagine selling enough of them to make it commercially worthwhile. Maybe 20 years ago I'd be in it just for the fun of it, but with 3 kids and a career, I find it hard to find the time for the one controller I sell now. Still, this is something I keep thinking about doing, if I can figure out how to make it really nice for a reasonable price.

 

-Rick

[Zerosquare]

Still, some of the JagWare lot are pretty handy when it comes to reverse engineering electronics and signals, right?

Hehe

Yes, it's probably possible to reverse-engineer the communications protocol - it's only simple data like button states after all, so I doubt it's very complicated.

I have the needed equipment to reverse-engineer that, but neither a controller nor a Nuon, and they're pretty rare. It would be interesting to know if the communication is bidirectional or not. In the later case, it should be possible to test the controller without needing a Nuon.

 

A plug solution:

Take one normal nuon controller. Cut off the plug and a short length of cable. Attach a common plug and line socket (4 pin mini-din maybe?) to the cut ends of the cable. Thus they can still plug into each other to function as before, and the adaptor can also plug into any newly made/converted controllers.

That's pretty much what I had in mind as well. I prefer to do it with extension cords (they seem to exist, according to Nuon-Dome) ; that way you don't even have to to mess with the original controller.

 

I was thinking about adding a simple MCU that would read the encoder and then modulate the left and right button inputs accordingly. I think I discussed this on another thread in here somewhere and was cautioned that it wouldn't work well, which may be the case, but I'm a pretty tenacious bastard and I'll probably try it anyway.

I've been thinking about doing the same thing to add rotary or mouse support to games that only support the standard control scheme. One thing that may not be esay is getting the length of pulses right, so that they're never missed or counted twice. On the Jaguar, you could probably use the row select lines as a means of synchronisation (assuming the game reads the joypad ports once per frame), but most microcontrollers are too slow to keep up - I used a CPLD on my PS1 pad-to-Jaguar adapter for this.

[Hyper_Eye]

I have a Chaos Reins and it is not free spinning. It has a nice click to it as you turn the nob. I though a Tyrant controller might be interesting to me if it were free spinning since I already have one that is not.

[BuddyBuddies]

I have a Chaos Reins and it is not free spinning. It has a nice click to it as you turn the nob. I though a Tyrant controller might be interesting to me if it were free spinning since I already have one that is not.

maybe you have the Tyrant and not the Chaos Reins or maybe a Jonathon Rotary as they are clicking too? they are very similar. My Chaos Reins never clicked, but i suppose he could have made ones that did.

[+Stephen Moss]

A lot of people do not like the idea of hacking up their controller as I found out whith my first attempt at a PS Controller to Jag interface, if I could see a picture of the connector I might be able to identify it.

 

I took a few pics for you, it's not easy to get my cameraphone to focus given the tiny size of it, but I did the best I could. Its very similar in construction to micro-usb, except smaller, and where micro-usb has slightly raised contacts, the nuons seem to be slightly recessed.

It's looks like it may possible be some kind of micro D connector, but I have not seen anything like it before and would have assumed from the external shape that it was a mini USB B connector.

I have not compared the size but I think they might be this http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/27268.pdf what do you think? They are the closest I have found in the catalogues I have at work although there is no way to be certain without purchasing some and trying them.

[Tyrant]

It's looks like it may possible be some kind of micro D connector, but I have not seen anything like it before and would have assumed from the external shape that it was a mini USB B connector.

I have not compared the size but I think they might be this http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/27268.pdf what do you think? They are the closest I have found in the catalogues I have at work although there is no way to be certain without purchasing some and trying them.

Hmm... not those, they have a rectangular profile. The outer profile of the nuon plug is indeed a classic D shape, but much smaller. The inner opening is rectangular, with four contacts slightly recessed in on the short side of the D. When my flatmate wakes up I'll see if I can steal his camera and take some decent photos, with a metal ruler along side so you can get an idea of the dimensions.

[Tyrant]

I have a Chaos Reins and it is not free spinning. It has a nice click to it as you turn the nob. I though a Tyrant controller might be interesting to me if it were free spinning since I already have one that is not.

Interesting. I'll admit I know very little about the ChaosReins controllers, but all of mine have used a detented (clicking or stepping) encoder, with 36 steps per revolution. I'm pretty sure all of the ones by Jonathan Ascough have used the exact same encoder as mine.

[Hyper_Eye]

I have a Chaos Reins and it is not free spinning. It has a nice click to it as you turn the nob. I though a Tyrant controller might be interesting to me if it were free spinning since I already have one that is not.

Interesting. I'll admit I know very little about the ChaosReins controllers, but all of mine have used a detented (clicking or stepping) encoder, with 36 steps per revolution. I'm pretty sure all of the ones by Jonathan Ascough have used the exact same encoder as mine.

 

Well the one thing I am 100% sure of is that I have a Chaos Reins controller. Apparently I haven't used it in too long because I just checked and it is free spinning. So my memory failed me on this one. Maybe what happened is that I wanted one with a click after receiving my Chaos Reins and over time I forgot the one I have doesn't have a click. So, yes, I most definitely have a Chaos Reins (which I had no doubt of) and, yes I was wrong, it is free spinning. So I'm interested in one that is not free spinning. Sorry for the confusion. Just to clarify though... the Chaos Reins rotary is a fantastic controller. I simply want both types.

[+save2600]

I just ordered one from TrickyDick and forgot to ask if it's free spinning! I would assume so.

Why would you want one that is not?? Like the arcade, you should be able to spin that bad

boy 'round and 'round if you please. I know that these are not weighted, but models that

prevent total free spin ala the 2600 paddles would feel all wrong on this game.

[Tyrant]

I just ordered one from TrickyDick and forgot to ask if it's free spinning! I would assume so.

Why would you want one that is not?? Like the arcade, you should be able to spin that bad

boy 'round and 'round if you please. I know that these are not weighted, but models that

prevent total free spin ala the 2600 paddles would feel all wrong on this game.

The distinction between "free spinning" and "detented" isn't really so significant. On all of the rotaries based on ordinary controllers, the knob is only about an inch across, and won't spin once you let go of it. For that you would need a much larger flywheel-like knob. The only difference is that the detented ones have a slight... detent, is really the only term for it, on each step of the signal it sends. This makes it easier to navigate the menus, and also to play the bonus levels, which behave rather... strangely (read: they're buggy as hell).

[+save2600]

Thanks Tyrant - wasn't relating to detents at all, so sorry if that was the topic or previous sentiment - but who

is modding controllers with a detent pot? Yeah, not normal - or good. I hope NOBODY is producing rotary

mods using that silly method.

 

To me, "free spinning" means 360˚ rotation. This "detent" or stepped attenuating potentiometer business is a

whole other chapter...

Edited September 27, 2009 by save2600

[SwinginDick]

I have a Chaos Reins and it is not free spinning. It has a nice click to it as you turn the nob. I though a Tyrant controller might be interesting to me if it were free spinning since I already have one that is not.

 

Can't be one of mine - I've never made one with an encoder with detents. Besides, if it was one of mine it would be clearly identified with a label on the back.

 

-Rick

[Tyrant]

but who is modding controllers with a detent pot? Yeah, not normal - or good. I hope NOBODY is producing rotary mods using that silly method.

 

Uh... I am, and so is (or was) Jonathan Ascough. Well, it's not a pot since the signal is a 2 bit grey code, but the encoders both I and he used have a slight detent to them, and I've never heard a complaint about it from people who've actually tried one.

 

To me, "free spinning" means 360˚ rotation. This "detent" or stepped attenuating potentiometer business is a

whole other chapter...

 

360˚ rotation as opposed to what? one that would only go 270˚ and stop? That wouldn't, couldn't work with the way Tempest operates. All the encoders, no matter who they're made by, can be rotated infinitely in either direction. I know the 2600 had both driving and paddle controllers, but that isn't the case for the Jaguar, since there are no games that would benefit from that kind of input.

[ovalbugmann]

SwinginDick! Hehe! Cool name man that made me laugh. I am the one who just purchased a rotary from you on ebay, I'm Noel52-57 on ebay and asked about packing it well.

 

And yes, for others: I can confirm that SwinginDicks' rotarys are without the indent notch while turning.

 

Now, I initially dis-agreed with Tyrants' decision to ebay his controllers to the highest bidder. However, after doing business with Rick for two transactions, I don't think it's all that bad - from a purchasers' point of view there seems to be a limited but enough of a supply to make buying one not go over the $100.00 mark and that is good for regular Jag Players like me.

 

Thanks for your work guys to make T2K even better!

[ovalbugmann]

I've never heard a complaint about it from people who've actually tried one.

 

Sounds cool to me, I would still like to pick up one of your controllers too. I assume that for every indent your ship moves one web section?

 

a slight... detent, is really the only term for it, on each step of the signal it sends

 

If so, that would also be fine for playing the game, I would think. It would offer some precision movement probably.

[+save2600]

 

Uh... I am, and so is (or was) Jonathan Ascough. Well, it's not a pot since the signal is a 2 bit grey code, but the encoders both I and he used have a slight detent to them, and I've never heard a complaint about it from people who've actually tried one.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying Tyrant. Sounds as though, even with the slight detent, that the encoder still operates smoothly

and does not loose or skip values during the indent/detent. Stepped attenuation with no grey between is typical in a

potentiometer scenario and that's what I was thinking originally. My bad!

 

And yes, I took it that the term "free spinning" mirrored how the driving controls behaved. Never crossed my mind

that someone would use a rotary knob with a slight detent to it. Interesting! I'm sure they're fine then as 1 million

happy customers can't be wrong :-) lol

[Tyrant]

 

Uh... I am, and so is (or was) Jonathan Ascough. Well, it's not a pot since the signal is a 2 bit grey code, but the encoders both I and he used have a slight detent to them, and I've never heard a complaint about it from people who've actually tried one.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying Tyrant. Sounds as though, even with the slight detent, that the encoder still operates smoothly

and does not loose or skip values during the indent/detent. Stepped attenuation with no grey between is typical in a

potentiometer scenario and that's what I was thinking originally. My bad!

 

And yes, I took it that the term "free spinning" mirrored how the driving controls behaved. Never crossed my mind

that someone would use a rotary knob with a slight detent to it. Interesting! I'm sure they're fine then as 1 million

happy customers can't be wrong :-) lol

 

*grins* hardly a million, but yeah I think the general consensus is that they work just fine.

 

I've never seen a stepped pot, but they sound like they could have their uses, in specific scenarios. The way Jag Rotaries work is the same as the 2600 driving controllers, but more sensitive. Basically a two bit binary grey-code; a pair of squarewaves with one preceding the other by a quarter cycle. There are thus four steps per cycle, and on the encoders I use, 9 cycles (which is 36 steps) per revolution. For comparison I believe the 2600 driving controller used four cycles per revolution, but I could be wrong on that.

[Hyper_Eye]

I have a Chaos Reins and it is not free spinning. It has a nice click to it as you turn the nob. I though a Tyrant controller might be interesting to me if it were free spinning since I already have one that is not.

 

Can't be one of mine - I've never made one with an encoder with detents. Besides, if it was one of mine it would be clearly identified with a label on the back.

 

-Rick

 

And it is clearly labeled on the back plus I still have the original letter that was sent with the controller congratulating the purchaser on getting a chaos reins controller. If you read my later post I checked and I was mistaken. I would edit the post but you aren't able to do that. My controller is definitely a Chaos Reins and it is free spinning.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Hyper_Eye

[disjaukifa]

Hey,

 

While I really need to go back and read this ENTIRE thread, if you are planning on making a free spinning controller for Tempest 2k, I would be interested in getting one.

 

-Disjaukifa

[+save2600]

Got mine back from Rick today and had a quick game. Quite impressed with the fit and finish of this mod. Doesn't look

home made, rigged or modded at all. The rotary has a real nice feel to it and looks/feels as if it's made of brushed aluminium.

My only complaint is that I wish it turned a little more loosely, but I wouldn't be surprised that after some use, it'll free

itself up somewhat. What's also impressive is how easy it is to use with your left hand (or left thumb really). I was thinking

this might have been better had you controlled it with your right thumb, but nope - feels quite natural just the way it is.

A right-hander would play the arcade with his right hand, but the way you hold the knob on the arcade is quite different.

1 thumb and maybe your middle and (opposite) ring finger. Left handed control on the Jag allows the claw (or whatever

it's called) to go in the direction you're "spinning".

 

I like it a lot Rick - thanks much!

Edited October 1, 2009 by save2600

[ovalbugmann]

 

Uh... I am, and so is (or was) Jonathan Ascough. Well, it's not a pot since the signal is a 2 bit grey code, but the encoders both I and he used have a slight detent to them, and I've never heard a complaint about it from people who've actually tried one.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying Tyrant. Sounds as though, even with the slight detent, that the encoder still operates smoothly

and does not loose or skip values during the indent/detent. Stepped attenuation with no grey between is typical in a

potentiometer scenario and that's what I was thinking originally. My bad!

 

And yes, I took it that the term "free spinning" mirrored how the driving controls behaved. Never crossed my mind

that someone would use a rotary knob with a slight detent to it. Interesting! I'm sure they're fine then as 1 million

happy customers can't be wrong :-) lol

 

 

Got mine back from Rick today and had a quick game. Quite impressed with the fit and finish of this mod. Doesn't look

home made, rigged or modded at all. The rotary has a real nice feel to it and looks/feels as if it's made of brushed aluminium.

My only complaint is that I wish it turned a little more loosely, but I wouldn't be surprised that after some use, it'll free

itself up somewhat. What's also impressive is how easy it is to use with your left hand (or left thumb really). I was thinking

this might have been better had you controlled it with your right thumb, but nope - feels quite natural just the way it is.

A right-hander would play the arcade with his right hand, but the way you hold the knob on the arcade is quite different.

1 thumb and maybe your middle and (opposite) ring finger. Left handed control on the Jag allows the claw (or whatever

it's called) to go in the direction you're "spinning".

 

I like it a lot Rick - thanks much!

 

 

 

As Thomas noted in the Harmony thread, posts with line breaks suck and are hard to read. I can live with no coherent paragraphing, but line breaks are just a pain to read. We've come a long way since Usenet. You should make your posts inviting to the reader and make them organized so people can concentrate on the message and not the formatting - so to recap: there is no need to be pressing the enter key in a paragraph it will go to the next line automatically.

Edited October 2, 2009 by ovalbugmann

[+save2600]

Shit.... I'm truly sorry guys. On my display though, I can stretch or squish the browser to fit however I want it. Do it all the time out of necessity. So, stretching the browser out, I don't see the annoying line breaks at all. Course, I run my display natively at 1344x840, so maybe those with lower resolutions and smaller monitors are the ones seeing the annoying line break thing. I'm trying my damndest to break myself of the habit though - I swear :-) Thanks for making this old man feel like a computer newbie ovalbugmann! lol

 

-edit- had to insert an extra 'n'... like Manfred Mann, to your user name.

Edited October 2, 2009 by save2600

[Tyrant]

Shit.... I'm truly sorry guys. On my display though, I can stretch or squish the browser to fit however I want it. Do it all the time out of necessity. So, stretching the browser out, I don't see the annoying line breaks at all. Course, I run my display natively at 1344x840, so maybe those with lower resolutions and smaller monitors are the ones seeing the annoying line break thing. I'm trying my damndest to break myself of the habit though - I swear :-) Thanks for making this old man feel like a computer newbie ovalbugmann! lol

 

-edit- had to insert an extra 'n'... like Manfred Mann, to your user name.

 

Pfft! It doesn't bother me in the slighest, but I guess people on a really low resolution would get a line and a half for each of your lines and that is annoying.

[ovalbugmann]

No problem man, I just thought I would be another reader here to bring it to your attention so you would be aware that it can take away from the post a little. No big deal, I still read your posts, but when I am tired or late at night, sometimes I will skip those kinds of posts. I did not mean to make you feel old, or like a computer newbie - my bad, your writing thoughts are still well organized and that's the important thing.

 

I am running 1024x768 resolution on my screen, and I always use full screen for most browser things, I just use tabs to switch over. I did reduce the size of my browser to see if your lines break as much, and with a smaller window the breaks are not as pronounced but still there.

 

Well, there are several people who post like this regularly - so I did not mean to pick on you or be stickler for little unimportant writing details.(grammar police! ) This is not a english class or computer class, just a message board - it's all good!.

Edited October 3, 2009 by ovalbugmann