How long do you think a machine will last?

[potatohead]

Ditto on the here and now.

 

IMHO, the machines will last, until they don't. At that time, either there is interest, or there isn't, and replacement stuff will be made.

 

Non issue as far as I am concerned.

[MagitekAngel]

Our 2600s will still be good to go in 2600

And at the very least, they'll still be here long after the last 360 goes poof.

[tz101]

RevEng touched on the true solution: Vacuum storage bags. Oxygen (along with UV light) is the true enemy of all electrical and plastic components. Eliminate the oxygen and classic game consoles could last for centuries. I would suggest getting some of the vacuum storage bags advertised on TV for shrinking blankets and pillows. Put in your 2600 or 5200 console, along with any game carts, controllers, and a/c adapters, then use your Eureka to vacuum out all the air. Voila, store this bag in a dark and temperate room in your house, and it will be useful to the grand-kids one day.

[Kurisu]

RevEng touched on the true solution: Vacuum storage bags. Oxygen (along with UV light) is the true enemy of all electrical and plastic components. Eliminate the oxygen and classic game consoles could last for centuries. I would suggest getting some of the vacuum storage bags advertised on TV for shrinking blankets and pillows. Put in your 2600 or 5200 console, along with any game carts, controllers, and a/c adapters, then use your Eureka to vacuum out all the air. Voila, store this bag in a dark and temperate room in your house, and it will be useful to the grand-kids one day.

 

You know, if I ever get a unit in near-perfect condition, I am very much considering doing this. The question is, what games to archive?

 

Pac-Man? Defender? Missile Command? Combat? Yar's Revenge? Pitfall! and Pitfall 2? all 3 Swordquest titles (if one can get waterworld, that is)?

 

It's a fun thing to think about, the "obsessive" preservation idea, because the only way to logically do it is to preserve one of every game ever, which would be rather difficult considering many are one-of-a-kind.

 

I think in the end, even if the machines cease to function in another 30 years, the fact that many of them certainly still will exist is a nice thing: people could still see and touch the unit, even if it sadly no longer functions.

 

I also like to think that since we have the schematics, maybe sometime in the future it will somehow be possible for us (as a hobby group) to be able to somehow produce new replacement components, in the same way one can, in theory, keep a car running forever by over time replacing effectively every component of it.

 

Wouldn't that be a nice future? The TIA in your 2600 dies, or the POKEY in your favourite 7800 game fries out, and all you have to do is buy a replacement "new" component from the store here. Solder it in and boom, hopefully another 30-50 years of the game or system working!

 

...in dreams, and in theory, anyway....

[Mirage]

Please do not preserve any Swordquest titles in vacuum sealed bags. Thank you.

[Kurisu]

Please do not preserve any Swordquest titles in vacuum sealed bags. Thank you.

 

I wont. It was a sick joke.

 

E.T, however, deserves to be preserved. Can't believe I missed that one in my off the top of my head mini list.

[ovalbugmann]

As discussed earlier the electrolytic capacitors are many Atari consoles/computers weakest link, therefore I have decided to do as suggested and invest in a "voltage regulator" to even out the current going to the Ataris - to give what's called "clean power" as output. This will alow me to use my original AC adaptors for my Heavy Sixer, 7800 & Jaguar systems.

 

Here is what I am going to buy soon or possibly one of the APC brand ones:

 

http://www.amazon.com/OPTI-UPS-SS1200-Stabilizer-Automatic-Regulator/dp/B0007P11M4/ref=pd_cp_e_2

[Kurisu]

Oh wow, certainly worth the investment.

 

I just actually had a power supply die on me: luckily it was not my "original" grey one.

[tetrode kink]

As discussed earlier the electrolytic capacitors are many Atari consoles/computers weakest link, therefore I have decided to do as suggested and invest in a "voltage regulator" to even out the current going to the Ataris - to give what's called "clean power" as output. This will alow me to use my original AC adaptors for my Heavy Sixer, 7800 & Jaguar systems.

 

Here is what I am going to buy soon or possibly one of the APC brand ones:

 

amazon.com link...

Hi, Ogive Rear Windowed Volkswagen Beetle Male Person, I think you've misunderstood. While it's always a good thing to have a UPS to back up power for electronics, and most UPSs have some line filtering to "clean up" incoming power, that's not what RevEng was talking about when he said "get a regulated power supply."

 

What he was talking about was replacing the stock Atari wall-wart with a regulated power supply, such as from a laptop or later-gen game system. Good idea, IMHO. You could even Frankenstein the Atari wall-wart's power cable onto the 12-V leads from an old AT or ATX computer power supply.

 

He was bringing to light the fact that there will always be a little AC ripple in a wall-wart's output. OK, so what's wrong with ripple? Haven't we all needed an inexpensive adult beverage now and then? No, we're talking about AC ripple (not a brand name!) It's not a defect, it's just that with the simple diode/capacitor (rectifier/filter) in the wall-wart, ripple can't be completely eliminated. Granted, you'd need an oscilloscope to detect it, and at that point it probably isn't taxing the Atari's circuits excessively.

 

I would worry more about the transformer in the wall-wart. It will blithely pass any power surges it receives through to the rectifier (then to the Atari, assuming the diodes survive the onslought). This fact is only mitigated by the fact that it's a step-down transformer, so the surge will be reduced as well.

 

The laptop or computer power supply is a good solution because it is regulated and well-filtered (won't [or shouldn't ] pass power surges), and presents very steady (effectively rippleless) power to its user. Yes, no ripple = no fun, but let's face it: We want a sober supply to power our computing devices.

 

Unfortunately, that solution introduces a new problem: We're talking about pampering our Ataris here, and asking the Atari's internal regulation to sink 12 V instead of 9 is not pampering, it's almost abusing. OK, maybe not abusing, but we're definitely going in the wrong direction.

 

So, what to do? We need a regulated power supply to pamper our Ataris, and preferably at a voltage at (or below) 9 V: Hmm, what to do... what to do...

 

EUREKA!

 

Actually, I'm only half kidding. That one would cost a few hundred dollars, unless you picked one up used on eBay. Doing some quick Googling, I found this:

 

3~12VDC 2A Economical Multiple Output Voltage Bench Power Supply

 

$29.93 plus $9.99 S/H, as of this post.

 

It's practically perfect: A regulated supply that can be voltage-adjusted to taste. Just hook up the aforementioned wall-wart's cord to the supply's output posts and you're golden. Just make sure you get the polarity right. Ideally you'd run it at 6 V, but just in case the RF modulator gets hinky you could run it at 7.5 V. This way, the Atari's internal regulator generates less heat, thus hopefully lasts longer since it doesn't have to work as hard.

 

Yeah, I know, who's going to spend $40 to replace a $10 device for their video game? HA! Stupid question. Forgot where I was there for a second .

 

Can't spend $40, but you're a handy type of person?

 

A super-cheap alternative: Replace or supplement the wall-wart's built-in filter cap with a higher-capacity one. I've never opened an Atari wall-wart so I don't know what the capacitor's capacity is, but all you'd have to do is either get another one of the same capacity and tag it on to the old one (mindful of polarity, of course), or get a higher-capacity cap and replace the old one. The stock one is probably between 1000 and 2000 µF, so just double it: If it's 2000 µF, get another 2000 µF and tag it on, or replace it with a 4000 µF cap.

 

The point of this is to reduce the (admittedly, already miniscule) AC ripple and provide a cleaner, flatter 9 Volts DC to the Atari.

 

There is almost no downside to increasing the capacitance of the filter cap. Almost. You probably don't want to more than double it, if only because every time you plug the wall-wart into the wall, there is a momentary power surge from the transformer while the cap charges up. This stresses the rectifier diodes, but only for a fraction of a second. Increasing the capacitance exacerbates the momentary power surge, so you don't want to go crazy with it. Doubling is probably plenty.

 

OK, fess up: Who's going to go out now and get one of those regulated power supplies? Come on, Atari nerd. You're safe here, you can admit it!

 

-tet

Edited November 13, 2009 by tetrode kink

[Videogamecollector123]

I think that Atari's will last a long time, but in the future they're going to need maitnence. It will get to the point where to collect Atari you need basic knowledge on circutry and soldering(although that's not a problem for most of us here).

[Herbarius]

asking the Atari's internal regulation to sink 12 V instead of 9 is not pampering, it's almost abusing.

 

Well, it's made to take up to 15V...

[Kurisu]

As discussed earlier the electrolytic capacitors are many Atari consoles/computers weakest link, therefore I have decided to do as suggested and invest in a "voltage regulator" to even out the current going to the Ataris - to give what's called "clean power" as output. This will alow me to use my original AC adaptors for my Heavy Sixer, 7800 & Jaguar systems.

 

Here is what I am going to buy soon or possibly one of the APC brand ones:

 

amazon.com link...

Hi, Ogive Rear Windowed Volkswagen Beetle Male Person, I think you've misunderstood. While it's always a good thing to have a UPS to back up power for electronics, and most UPSs have some line filtering to "clean up" incoming power, that's not what RevEng was talking about when he said "get a regulated power supply."

 

What he was talking about was replacing the stock Atari wall-wart with a regulated power supply, such as from a laptop or later-gen game system. Good idea, IMHO. You could even Frankenstein the Atari wall-wart's power cable onto the 12-V leads from an old AT or ATX computer power supply.

 

He was bringing to light the fact that there will always be a little AC ripple in a wall-wart's output. OK, so what's wrong with ripple? Haven't we all needed an inexpensive adult beverage now and then? No, we're talking about AC ripple (not a brand name!) It's not a defect, it's just that with the simple diode/capacitor (rectifier/filter) in the wall-wart, ripple can't be completely eliminated. Granted, you'd need an oscilloscope to detect it, and at that point it probably isn't taxing the Atari's circuits excessively.

 

I would worry more about the transformer in the wall-wart. It will blithely pass any power surges it receives through to the rectifier (then to the Atari, assuming the diodes survive the onslought). This fact is only mitigated by the fact that it's a step-down transformer, so the surge will be reduced as well.

 

The laptop or computer power supply is a good solution because it is regulated and well-filtered (won't [or shouldn't ] pass power surges), and presents very steady (effectively rippleless) power to its user. Yes, no ripple = no fun, but let's face it: We want a sober supply to power our computing devices.

 

Unfortunately, that solution introduces a new problem: We're talking about pampering our Ataris here, and asking the Atari's internal regulation to sink 12 V instead of 9 is not pampering, it's almost abusing. OK, maybe not abusing, but we're definitely going in the wrong direction.

 

So, what to do? We need a regulated power supply to pamper our Ataris, and preferably at a voltage at (or below) 9 V: Hmm, what to do... what to do...

 

EUREKA!

 

Actually, I'm only half kidding. That one would cost a few hundred dollars, unless you picked one up used on eBay. Doing some quick Googling, I found this:

 

3~12VDC 2A Economical Multiple Output Voltage Bench Power Supply

 

$29.93 plus $9.99 S/H, as of this post.

 

It's practically perfect: A regulated supply that can be voltage-adjusted to taste. Just hook up the aforementioned wall-wart's cord to the supply's output posts and you're golden. Just make sure you get the polarity right. Ideally you'd run it at 6 V, but just in case the RF modulator gets hinky you could run it at 7.5 V. This way, the Atari's internal regulator generates less heat, thus hopefully lasts longer since it doesn't have to work as hard.

 

Yeah, I know, who's going to spend $40 to replace a $10 device for their video game? HA! Stupid question. Forgot where I was there for a second .

 

Can't spend $40, but you're a handy type of person?

 

A super-cheap alternative: Replace or supplement the wall-wart's built-in filter cap with a higher-capacity one. I've never opened an Atari wall-wart so I don't know what the capacitor's capacity is, but all you'd have to do is either get another one of the same capacity and tag it on to the old one (mindful of polarity, of course), or get a higher-capacity cap and replace the old one. The stock one is probably between 1000 and 2000 µF, so just double it: If it's 2000 µF, get another 2000 µF and tag it on, or replace it with a 4000 µF cap.

 

The point of this is to reduce the (admittedly, already miniscule) AC ripple and provide a cleaner, flatter 9 Volts DC to the Atari.

 

There is almost no downside to increasing the capacitance of the filter cap. Almost. You probably don't want to more than double it, if only because every time you plug the wall-wart into the wall, there is a momentary power surge from the transformer while the cap charges up. This stresses the rectifier diodes, but only for a fraction of a second. Increasing the capacitance exacerbates the momentary power surge, so you don't want to go crazy with it. Doubling is probably plenty.

 

OK, fess up: Who's going to go out now and get one of those regulated power supplies? Come on, Atari nerd. You're safe here, you can admit it!

 

-tet

 

 

You know, I took Electronics as my main courses during high school, so this all was VERY familiar to me. I remember working on simple rectifier circuits and recalling how specific diode - capacitor setups effected the end result of the current: how just a diode created a 30 Htz pulse effect, a diode and a simple capacitor created a ripple, and a small complex capacitor array, still with the one diode, somehow buffered it down to nothing.

 

I can also recall the teacher mentioning how a larger initial capacitor would do just as you say: take longer to charge, and put more stress on the diode, but would work in place of these complex capacitor arrays.

 

IIRC, is that not why PC power supplies are so large, because they use the more complex array type?

 

Honestly, if it was not for the risk of a knob getting turned accidentally on those variable power supplies, I would have long ago gotten one, for various other projects. Back in high school, we used to actually fry circuits with those just to see what the effect was. Cooking a resistor was hilarious, but frying a larger capacitor was downright scary.

 

Now, these caps DID take a good 3-4 more volts than they were rated for, over a period of about 20 seconds, to finally fry out, but they were new units, not ones from 30 years ago.

 

Gah, looks like I will be taking a trip up to radio shack soon, to satisfy my curiosity on how the power is coming out of my power supplies.

[ovalbugmann]

Hi, Ogive Rear Windowed Volkswagen Beetle Male Person

 

 

 

ogive definition

 

ogive (ō′jīv′, ō jīv′)

 

noun

 

1. the diagonal rib or groin of a Gothic vault

2. a pointed, or Gothic, arch

3. a similarly shaped nose of a bullet, rocket, or other projectile

Edited November 14, 2009 by ovalbugmann

[keilbaca]

I was actually thinking about this very subject the other night while trying to sleep.

 

I didn't get much sleep that night.

 

This thread is packed nicely with information, good to know that I can at least for sure to play atari till i'm 90 years old. XD

[Kurisu]

Yeah, I am amazed so much good info got put here: so many ideas, theories, experiences, and such.

 

The great thing is, the info here, on a general sense, is also valid for all the other retro machines, and even still for the machines of today: presuming the moving parts are working on your PS2's, Gamecubes, Saturns, and such, they still have the same potential issues that the 2600 and such do: how long WILL an IC last? Will my capacitors survive? Really an issue that boils down to: just how long can 20th century electronics survive?

 

 

Glad you liked the thread.

[keilbaca]

I have enough atari 2600 spare consoles, I should vacuum seal an atari with some commons that I have, or maybe a harmony cart with the Atari 2600 collection on it, so I know I have a working one in 70-80 years, for my kids.

[Kurisu]

There is another though: how long would the SD card last? As techy as I am, I don't even quite know how those things work! XD I understand normal flash technology, but do fear bit-rot with them (its very probable with standard flash, right?). Would storing game rom data onto SD cards really allow them to survive X number of years?

[Herbarius]

The great thing is, the info here, on a general sense, is also valid for all the other retro machines, and even still for the machines of today: presuming the moving parts are working on your PS2's, Gamecubes, Saturns, and such

I think whats different about the newer systems is the optical drive (CD/DVD/Blu-Ray), so you were right about the "moving parts" bit. However I think those are really a problem. From my own experiences with audio CD players and PC CD-ROM drives I'd say those won't last much more than 5 years. The other parts of the console propably will (assuming it doesn't RRoD ), but you'll have to repair and/or replace the drive mechanics and laser in comparatively short intervals.

 

Maybe someone can confirm this? Some systems, like the original Playstation or the Saturn, are already well past my estimate. What's the likelihood of finding one of those which still works, without needing to repair?

Edited November 25, 2009 by Herbarius

[VectorGamer]

The answer to the question is:

 

"The whole time"

[Rik]

I'll just leave my stuff as is.In my experience,everything I've babied to look nice and last long ended up doing MORE damage,or not lasting any longer than stuff that was neglected.Not trying to discourage and say the various suggestions here wont help,just my honest experience.

[Rik]

I'll just leave my stuff as is.In my experience,everything I've babied to look nice and last long ended up doing MORE damage,or not lasting any longer than stuff that was neglected.Not trying to discourage and say the various suggestions here wont help,just my honest experience.I also do not see any sense FOR ME anyway, in preserving things for others in the future who will more than likely throw it all in the garbage,or send to the thrift.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Rik

[RevEng]

Would storing game rom data onto SD cards really allow them to survive X number of years?

Typically 10 years of actual usage. There's not a lot of info available on the shelf-life though.

 

Sandisk recently came out with a WORM SD card that is supposed to last 100 years, stored or actively used. No idea on price or availability though.

[Kurisu]

Typically 10 years of actual usage. There's not a lot of info available on the shelf-life though.

 

So then, would it still be just a decade of shelf life, being written to once, then read from for the rest of the time? in theory, that is all one would have to do to back up all of the original (1977-1991) releases.

 

Well, in a way it is a moot point, as the rom data, presuming we don't have total data failure across the whole of human existence, will survive "forever". the issue still boils down to the survivability and ability to repair the original machinery, but at that point it almost stops becoming the original device. Odd eh?

[RevEng]

Not sure if it's a decade in read-only mode or what - there isn't a lot of info out there on non-write-related wear-out. I'd certainly expect it to last a lot longer that way.

 

Assuming an archived Atari survived the journey, I fully expect that in 100 years the kids won't care about a real archived 2600 anyway, outside of the interest in it being an antique. Any retro-gamers will just print up some controllers and run the games on their video screens using Stella V50 or whatever, rather than trying to figure out how the heck to hook this thing up to their superDRMHDTV.

 

And there's no way that Atari is going to survive for their great-grandkids. Atoms ultimately turn to dust; you can't stop it. The only real way to preserve the games is to ensure the games are dumped and passed around in an active community, and kids are taught that it's the gameplay that matters.

[Kurisu]

You say kids won't care in 100 years, but think about this:

 

Let's not presume little kids, who as we all know don't care about much of anything past the year they live in, but let's say someone my age: 24

 

They have an interest in game history in general, as I do. the 2600 is before my time: I was born the year the NES was released here, but sure enough I have gone back to that time, to enjoy all I can from that era. It's just how I am. We all obviously do not expect much of anyone to actually care, but those few that DO care to see these items, or experience them, at all, in the same way I do (to experience something from before they existed, yet is critical to what they enjoy now).

 

As a perfect parallel, I collect records: I am into them to the point that I enjoy even the earliest sound recording methods: the first disc records, and cylinder recordings. I have no real reason other than being one of "those kinds of people".

 

At a local antique store, I found a 1915 Victrolla, and some records from 1903: Antiques by definition. I put them on the machine, started it up, and thought to myself: What I am hearing was recorded over a century ago: the people in this recording were born probably 100 years before I was, as well (1880's). I have no reason to care about this, but I do...

 

I think there will be "kids" like me in another century, who will look at the Atari 2600 in the same way we would a Victrolla: This simple device that, to them, is an amazing creation, considering all it could do for "what they had at the time".

 

Think about it: even now, are not most of us simply amazed the VCS could do what it did? I know I am, at times.

 

</deep>