UNIXcoffee928 Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 You may get some good ideas from this site, which covers the classes used in Motif: http://www.ist-inc.com/motif/books/vol6A/ch-3.fm.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 You may get some good ideas from this site, which covers the classes used in Motif: http://www.ist-inc.c...6A/ch-3.fm.html That looks pretty nice, and useful... thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Just to add to the information overload, here's some nice photos from 1981's Xerox Star 8010 interfaces. Not suggesting any of these get used, but it's always fun to show that Apple / Mac was not the innovator. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 (edited) Thanks Stephen. All grist for the mill. Steven Seagal was using an Apple Newton in Under Siege II on TV last night... naturally I was intrigued. Edited May 3, 2011 by flashjazzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fibrewire Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I first saw Under Seige 2 a couple of years later on TV. I couldn't afford a Newton at the time (17 years old) but my mom got me a Texas Instruments Avigo. That thing had some great monochrome games, including a version of Tetris that was nearly identical to the GameBoy version. In fact, I bet porting the games to FJC GUI would be a perfect fit for the Atari even though the Avigo was an 8-bit Z80. The Avigo is also how i knew about making backgrounds with the diffusion technique for monochrome screens. http://www.markus-he...com/av_game.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 Yes, these early mobile systems are highly relevant to what we're attempting to accomplish here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Just to add to the information overload, here's some nice photos from 1981's Xerox Star 8010 interfaces. Not suggesting any of these get used, but it's always fun to show that Apple / Mac was not the innovator. That is bad-ass.. Macrosloth has yet to catch up with that.. Especially that "multi-language text/character manager" word processing applet.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Just to add to the information overload, here's some nice photos from 1981's Xerox Star 8010 interfaces. Not suggesting any of these get used, but it's always fun to show that Apple / Mac was not the innovator. Yeah... Guis have much longer history then some think... Thanks for link! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 Well, this one's gonna have a long history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ransom Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Just to add to the information overload, here's some nice photos from 1981's Xerox Star 8010 interfaces. Not suggesting any of these get used, but it's always fun to show that Apple / Mac was not the innovator. If you're going to pull that out, might as well invite Doug Englebart into the conversation as well. And Licklider, and . . . Kinda like with videogames. First you think it's one guy who invented 'em, then you find out someone else did it before him, and someone before that guy, and so on back to the dawn of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fibrewire Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 The most impressive aspect of the Xerox Star isn't just the GUI, It's the specs and sheer resolution of the display. 1024x809... Also interesting to note is that the desktop pattern could be generated into the overscan areas of the display, beyond the workspace resolution area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star#Hardware Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpj1138 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 BPJ1138, I don't know who you are.. 34 posts since december of 07? no information in your profile whatsoever.. You sound like you think the A8 is capable of AMIGA-scale functionality.. I'll tell you one thing.. Where tight/fast code is concerned, and maximizing the resources/functionality of what really IS realistically available.. I'd put Flashjazzcat's code against yours without a second thought, any day.. I dont say this because I dont respect the things you have coded and posted here. I say this because of the things Ive seen that FJC managed to squeeze out of the machine, where actual full-scale finished applications are concerned. You have to understand that based on what he's done in the past, and based on what he's done so far in this project, that's probably gonna be the oppinion of just about everyone else on here as well. So if you want a collaborative effort to create something you feel would be superior, why don't you throw down, and go start your own project? If you're not willing to do that, then when the guy doing the develpoment tells you "no", listen to him. Nahh, I'll let FJC do the dirty work. I'm just an Atari kid. I was an Amiga kid in another life, but my dad decided to buy a 130XE for me, which changed the course of my life. I think he was a wise man, now that I'm 38. I like numbers a lot. God talks to me through numbers. Flashjazzcat (BTW, why do you call yourself "flash"?, makes me think of Flash coders, which isn't good I guess). Steve Jobs became a snob and didn't watch flash on his phone, I agree with him. I had a mac for a while, which had a 68030, I think. Which was cool cuz it has an MMU and a FP coprocessor.. LOL.. Anyhow, I love you all, don't read into my messages, I don't mean no harm. Oh, FJC, for OOP GUI shit, you *MIGHT* want to take a look at FLTK. Cheers, Bartlomiej.. Piotr.. Jaszcz.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNIXcoffee928 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 ... Flashjazzcat (BTW, why do you call yourself "flash"?, makes me think of Flash coders, which isn't good I guess). ... "Flash" is a Beat Generation term for "With Style", "Flashy", "Ultra-Hip", "With it", etc.. A "Cat" is a "Dude". Being that he's a jazz guitar player, I would gather that his name has nothing whatsoever with "Flash Programming"... other than his programming being "Flash"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fibrewire Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Motif - Okay. FLTK?... just the thing to corrupt FJC GUI... whats next, enlightenment? Enlightenment Window Manager FYI, the FLTK is approaching 4MB, which is slightly beyond the 48K in my Atari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpj1138 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Oh shit, Motif! Don't remind me of that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fibrewire Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 FJC: how big a cart are we talking for your GUI? 64K - 4MB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpj1138 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 she's part of the enemy clan, she's part of the monastery, great fight scenes, great fightin' shoot 'em up... battle of LA.. that one sucked.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNIXcoffee928 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Douglas Englebart , "The Mother of All Demos", ARC, Augment, DARPA, Xerox, PARC, Newton, Apple IIGS, MacOS, GEM, Motif, & many other people, interaction technologies, & interactivity metaphors have all been discussed here, earlier, if you go back to the beginning of the thread. We really did a lot of digging through the history of GUIs, in the earlier parts of this thread, and you will find quite a lot of varied Toolbox documentation, if you start from message #1, and work your way through the long, winding trail that has lead us all to this point. @fibrewire: The Motif link, that I had posted recently, went into great detail regarding the structure of the class hierarchy of the Motif GUI. FJC is now mostly doing back-end work, so this information is relevant., and not some kind of over-the-top distraction, or "corruption" of the FJC-GUI, particularly since Motif has been one of the many interfaces that FJC has investigated, since very early on. While the FJC-GUI may have a similar visual appearance to a Mac, there are many, many influences lurking under the bonnet of the actual visible interface. FlashJazzCat is a very able programmer, and a great Transformer of Abstract Ideas & Concepts, so don't worry! There is no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that he will release a highly efficient, hand-optimized, Zero-Bloat GUI Masterwork. He started from Square One, with this project, but simultaneously was very open to the absurd quantities of Graphical User Interface & Human-Computer Interaction Historical studies that myself & others threw his way. In a lot of ways, it is quite likely that this GUI has undergone much more extensive Research than most of the GUIs that have ever been developed, as it stands upon the shoulders of many of the giants that have come before it (& we dug very deeply into the Historical Studies, I can assure you). Of course, it is a gross oversimplification to just call it a GUI, as it has been developed to support a full API, and that takes a lot of work! Indeed, the API will inevitably prove to be this GUI software's greatest achievement, because it will ensure a Future for the GUI, and not just leave it as a "pretty program launcher" that will be quickly forgotten as a trifling excess. So, like Dürer's "Saint Jerome", FlashJazzCat is tirelessly devoting himself to creating a Masterpiece. Don't worry, it will be amazing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fibrewire Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 MWM or IEEE 1295? In short, I wasn't referencing the Motif information, but when dude said FLTK, I thought to myself "wow we're getting into C++ already" so I made the sarcastic remark of a full fledged window manager. I'm no programmer, but I've worked with enough C, C++, and C# guys in the embedded market to know when something is taking shape beyond available resources. No offense intended - and original post edited to reflect my original sentiment. I really should put thought into what I say before enscribing it for all to see Sorry, bpj1138 created the feeling like we were headed in the direction of Angstrom Linux and beyond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fibrewire Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 fibrewire's rule of thumb ASM = bytes C = kilobytes C++ = megabytes C# = hundreds of megabytes - gigabytes Am I off??? You know it's true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 (edited) ... Flashjazzcat (BTW, why do you call yourself "flash"?, makes me think of Flash coders, which isn't good I guess). ... "Flash" is a Beat Generation term for "With Style", "Flashy", "Ultra-Hip", "With it", etc.. A "Cat" is a "Dude". Being that he's a jazz guitar player, I would gather that his name has nothing whatsoever with "Flash Programming"... other than his programming being "Flash"! I can confirm the jazz guitar connection. Also, watch certain episodes of "BlackAdder" for an additional popular culture reference to "flash" - i.e. "Flash by name, flash by nature!". As well as meaning "dude" in the context of my nick, cat also refers to my love of cats (of which we have three at the moment). FJC: how big a cart are we talking for your GUI? 64K - 4MB? The GUI code should fit into a 64KB cart when complete. The custom-built RAM cart I have here has 512KB RAM (banked at $8000 or $A000 in 8KB or 16KB banks), 1MB Flash ROM, and a pass-thru connector. Users who choose that particular combo will be able to run the GUI on an unexpanded 800. Other bulds with work with standard AtariMax carts, TurboFreezer, etc. Each piece of hardware has its strengths. The prototype RAM cart and Turbo Freezer's on-board RAM will provide the optimal user experience when using the GUI to launch legacy applications. Edited May 4, 2011 by flashjazzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fibrewire Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 So, theoretically the XE Super Cart PCB would work for modified systems? Minimum requirement is more than 128K? eBay Auction -- Item Number: 130509019861 EDIT: I guess I'm asking what your custom 512kb RAM + 1MB flash ram cart looks like. Sounds like bomb-jake cart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 Well, I knew nothing about the Bomb Jake cart till I just looked it up, but it does sound like a nice piece of kit. The RTC would be especially nice for a GUI. A 64KB super cart would work, but would naturally require on-board RAM. I must make the minimum configuration work on a 130XE (this is from an "ethical" standpoint as much as anything else), and thus I will have to create a number of different builds with different memory models. Broadly speaking: 1) AtariMax/Supercart/other - 8KB ROM banks at $A000, extended memory mapped at $4000-$7FFF. 2) RAM cart/Turbo Freezer/other RAM cart - 8KB ROM banks at $A000, extended memory (on board the cart) mapped at $8000-$9FFF. The prototype RAM cart I have here is flexible enough to bank the RAM at $8000 in 16KB chunks, but clearly I'll have Hobbes' time designing a banking system which juggles ROM and RAM in the left and right cart space. The advantage of the cart-based RAM is simply that legacy applications are guaranteed not to disturb the GUI's object tree and resources, even if they access the Atari's extended memory (if present). With plain, ROM-only bankswitched carts, applications which disturb extended RAM will require a complete re-initialization of the GUI on exit (although of course we will cache the "state" of the desktop before the app was launched so it can be reinstated). Gonna be fun, fun, fun doing all this back-end design work. It's one of the reasons I have such total respect for Trub and Drac030. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelmischief Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Oh shit, Motif! Don't remind me of that! WHAT!!?? OSF Motif was excellent! The API was clean and well organized and performance was rock solid on every platform. I loved it. Blew Sun's OpenWindows completely out of the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Motif fan here too. My favorite of the GUI tool kits was the IRIX Interactive Desktop. SGI built a great GUI kit. Wheels, spinners, jumpers (short cut launchers to the web and other places), etc... http://toastytech.com/guis/irix.html Had a screenie online, but it's gone now. Too bad. Was a nice screenie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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