The official "ColecoVision 2" thread

[Jordiway73]

Here is a Colecovision portable

 

 

you can read all about it here, this guy does all kinds of cool stuff

 

http://benheck.com/colecovision-portable

[Pixelboy]

Okay I want to know more about that CV game pad. That looks 100 times more comfortable than the original. Sure, can't use overlays, but who cares?

It's one of doubledown's mods, if I remember correctly. Which controller did he use? I think it was from a japanese system, can't remember which one. But he rewired it to work with the ColecoVision.

[frank_c]

i think it was a CD-I controller.

[Murph74]

Hmm-- The CD-i game controllers I have all look like NES Dogbone controllers.

[ApolloBoy]

Okay I want to know more about that CV game pad. That looks 100 times more comfortable than the original. Sure, can't use overlays, but who cares?

It's one of doubledown's mods, if I remember correctly. Which controller did he use? I think it was from a japanese system, can't remember which one. But he rewired it to work with the ColecoVision.

That was a controller that came with the NTT Data modem for the Super Famicom.

[Wntermute]

Okay I want to know more about that CV game pad. That looks 100 times more comfortable than the original. Sure, can't use overlays, but who cares?

It's one of doubledown's mods, if I remember correctly. Which controller did he use? I think it was from a japanese system, can't remember which one. But he rewired it to work with the ColecoVision.

That was a controller that came with the NTT Data modem for the Super Famicom.

 

I think it looks more like this one.. from the Nintendo Famicom Network System

 

[ten-four]

Hi

 

I don't think there should be joysticks with an upcoming CV2 from the start.

 

Use the original controllers from CV1, build some by your self or allowing third party to produce usable controllers.

 

It also opens up for joysticks, where you don't need the level of difficulty, so no number keypad, just player 1 and 2 Fire/Jump.

 

Many of the new games do not use the skill level anyway.

 

A new controller with numeric keypad may also need new overlays adapted to the new mummeric keypad.

 

Controllers to the upcoming CV2 will slow further and increase the price of the project.

[retroillucid]

I don't know if this idea has been said before, but...

 

I though about CV2 tonight, and I think while making a new CV system, why not include as a bullt-in a SuperGame Module

Kind of, Super ColecoVision

 

Just trowing idea here...

[Pixelboy]

I don't know if this idea has been said before, but...

 

I though about CV2 tonight, and I think while making a new CV system, why not include as a bullt-in a SuperGame Module

Kind of, Super ColecoVision

 

Just trowing idea here...

 

I don't recall if it was on the AA forums or in a private conversation, but I distinctly remember Eduardo telling me that he wanted the CV2 to have the same 60-pin front expansion port of the original CV. This implies that the hardware architecture of the CV2 would need to stay the same in terms of I/O, which means that the SGM features would have to remain external elements. At best, you could have 8K of RAM instead of 1K mirrored seven times.

 

I think keeping the front expansion port serves no valid purpose and should just be replaced with the extra RAM and extra sound chip of the SGM, but that's just my opinion.

[opcode]

I just had the most promising discussion about the CV2, it is even possible we could get to see the machine in some very early stage of development later this year. Let's see what specs from my list we can get for under 200 bucks.

Yeah, you can add that to my ever growing list of vaporware (though hopefully in two weeks at least the SGM will be out of that list).

Edited March 14, 2013 by opcode

[opcode]

So just to clarify my earlier post, while I was developing the SGM I tried to get external help a couple of times, with no success. I am more of a software guy, I get involved with hardware more out of necessity than anything, but when I do so, that means less time for software. While I was still in Brazil around 2005, I got a deal with Ademir Carchano that never got out of the paper. Then in 2009/10 a got a deal with Andre Lamothe, but the truth is that the deal never got beyond some technical advise. Then in 2011 I got a deal again with Ademir, which again never took off.

However, a little before that I got to know another very talented engineer in Brazil, that helped me with some stuff back when I was still planning to add an ADPCM sound chip to the SGM.

Well, a couple of weeks ago I was casually talking to him about some MSX stuff when I mentioned the SGM and he got really interested. So I mentioned the CV2 and he was really enthusiastic about the idea, so I gave him some specs I had, some old docs about what I was looking for, not really expecting anything to actually come from that, and for my surprise today we had this little chat where I found out he was already working on the thing, and he seems very committed to finish the machine.

So there you have it, we have a talented guy with a lot more experience than me, with a number of MSX devices commercially available, most of them video or audio expansions, with years of experience in electronics (that is what he does for a living) and he is working on the CV2.

I will keep cheering and pushing him to see how far we can get, and as I said, hopefully by the end of the year we can have something to show. I keep you guys updated. In the meantime, please keep fingers crossed..

Edited March 14, 2013 by opcode

[HDTV1080P]

Thanks for the update. Since 100% of TV’s now being sold in retail stores are HDTV flat panels and all computer monitors are flat panels, it would be ideal for the ColecoVision II to have a HDMI output. Low cost 24 inch computer monitors with HDMI inputs are now available. For a ColecoVision II all we really need is a HDMI output and a composite video output with analog audio for older SD displays that lack a DVI/HDMI connection. There is no need to offer S-Video output anymore since the consumer electronics industry has dropped S-Video on all new HDTV’s. Component video output could also be removed from the ColecoVision II since HDMI is the future.

 

Also I hope the ColecoVision II will have a expansion module interface to plug in the Expansion module #1 Atari 2600 adapter and Expansion module #3 Adam computer.

I hope in the future specs for the ColecoVision II will be released.

 

Thanks again for the update.

Edited March 14, 2013 by HDTV1080P

[Arjak]

Awesome Sauce! I can't wait to hear more! Can you give us an idea of how powerful it would be in a best-case scenario? Is there another system you could compare your ideas for the CV2 to? This is just my opinion, but I think it would be wise to make it a large step up from the CV1. If it's only going to be a small step up, why bother? I'm not saying it needs to be a PS3, but I would like to see a more powerful machine. I'd love to see something as powerful as a Genesis or SNES, but that's just my wild fantasy. Don't let my fantasies make your job harder!

 

If it's at least as powerful as an MSX2+, I'll be happy. I'd love to see some MSX2 ports!

 

OK, I'll stop my excited rantings, now.

[Pixelboy]

If it's at least as powerful as an MSX2+, I'll be happy. I'd love to see some MSX2 ports!

 

OK, I'll stop my excited rantings, now.

 

Be careful what you wish for, buddy. Give too much steroids to the CV and it will stop being compatible with existing games.

 

More seriously, making the system more "powerful" is pointless if you're not going to release new games that take full advantage of the added power. Opcode Games is not really a company, just a hobbyist with friends doing cool stuff for a tiny niche market. You can't expect Eduardo to carry a "boosted" CV on his shoulders, with litterally no serious third-party support for new game releases.

 

The CV and MSX may be cousins, but one is a game console and the other is a generalistic home computer, and that explains their differences in architecture. Besides, anything you "add" to the CV2 will just increase the cost of the hardware. I can agree with things like having HDMI output, but just that is already a costly proposition for a team of hobbyist working on a game console with virtually no chance of market growth.

 

If it's only going to be a small step up, why bother?

 

Because the CV2's main purpose is not to be a Sega Master System in disguise. The point is to offer some replacement hardware for an aging console that is highly prone to failure after 30 years of service. All our small community really needs is a modern console board that can play all our existing cartridges (legacy and homebrew) while removing such worries as power switch issues, power supply problems, VRAM failures, etc.

 

And the beauty of the CV2 project, in a way, is that you'll still get your wish for a more powerful system: Eduardo will likely be using a V9958 graphic chip instead of the original TMS9928 (which is no longer available on the spare parts market) and the V9958 has a bunch of interesting extra features that new game software will be able to take advantage of. Unless I'm mistaken, such MSX games as Metal Gear could be ported to the CV2 and display the exact same colorful graphics via the V9958's advanced graphic modes. And there's also the fact that the Z80 CPUs available today can run at two different speeds, namely the original speed of the CV (3.58 Mhz, if I remember correctly) and roughly twice that speed for added processing power.

 

But still, the real point is to have modern hardware to replace the aging original hardware, so that we can keep playing all our cherished CV games. I'm still hoping the CV2 will be a replacement kit designed to be inserted into the CV console's plastic casing. I see no point in spending money on a new plastic casing, not when the existing plastic casing can be recycled and do the job just as well. Just place the HDMI connector in the spot where the power connector is currently located, and place the new power plug in the place of the RF plug. There's no need to drill any new holes into the original casing!

[+Gemintronic]

A new MSX is a wonderful idea. Definitely a much more versatile machine than a Coleco. I think the people involved have declared it beyond the scope of this project though.

 

This is close enough to a new Coleco console - and not just a replacement part - that I cringe at the though of sacrificing an old Coleco for the new one. Hopefully stand-alone units with a new case would be the next step for this project.

[Pixelboy]

This is close enough to a new Coleco console - and not just a replacement part - that I cringe at the though of sacrificing an old Coleco for the new one. Hopefully stand-alone units with a new case would be the next step for this project.

 

As I said, this is a tiny niche market. More like a community spread out all over the world, really. About 500 console casings is all we need to cater to today's ColecoVision community with the CV2. Back in the early eighties, Coleco sold thousands upon thousands of CV consoles. Are you telling me we couldn't find 500 defective/unused consoles today that could be cleaned and recycled to house the CV2 PCB? Heck, I see defective ColecoVisions sold "for parts" on eBay every week.

[HDTV1080P]

QUOTE

 

“Total sales of the ColecoVision are uncertain but were ultimately in excess of 2 million units, as sales had reached that number by the spring of 1984”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ColecoVision

 

If the ColecoVision II was sold as a brand new videogame system with a colorful retail box for around $200 it would most likely easily surpass 2 thousand units sold if marketed correctly.

[HARMIK]

Sorry HDTV1080P I have to disagree with you, having a HDMI port is fine but in my opinion it still needs an S-Video and maybe component port to run on old CRT TVs at there best. Colecovision 2 will still be a fairly low resolution system that in my opinion and this is just my opinion I do not think would look good on an LCD display. I run all my old systems on Sony CRT TVs that have S-Video and component input and they look much better than all the LCD TVs I have tried. And these days you can still pick up CRT TVs in good condition for very cheep.

[opcode]

I have a meeting in a hour, so I must be quick.

Some projects premises:

 

- Video output is going to be composite, S-video, component, RGB. No HDMI. HDMI is digital realm, the other are analog. The cost to bridge analog to digital is just too high, so if you want HDMI you are going to need a 3rd party device that converts RGB to HDMI.

- We are starting with the bare minimum to give the machine full CV compatibility, except for the V9958 as a replacement for the TMS9928 (because of the added features and superior video output, RGB), and from there we are going to expend until we get a board that costs $150 to manufacture

- We can go all the way up to 16 bits quality graphics and sound, courtesy of the V9990 and YM2151. However that depends on price. As long as it fits the budget we will keep adding features

- Before we go crazy about the 16 bits specs, there is a certain functionally that I want to add to the CV2 that I am sure is going to make a lot of CV fans super happy

- I mentioned 200 bucks in my post yesterday and just mentioned $150 above. The remaining $50 would be a provisioning for a custom case, if we can get enough pre-orders

[youki]

The CV and MSX may be cousins, but one is a game console and the other is a generalistic home computer, and that explains their differences in architecture.

 

MSX not a console ????...

 

http://www.passionmsx.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=48&keywords=kobo&lang=french

 

 

 

I cross my fingers for the CV2.

[opcode]

About the beauty of the V9958:

Not just is it fully backward compatible with the TMS9928, but it adds a number of interesting features. We get hardware scroll. We get to choose from 512 colors. Those the two most obvious choices for creating games that run just fine on regular CVs but can enhance the experience if ran from a CV2.

Then we have a number of additional features, like high res modes, high color modes (up to 256 colors in bitmap or 19k colors in YJK mode, a kind of precursor of jpg), 8 sprites per scanline, sprite color or-ing, a blitter, etc.

 

Now, the thing that excites me the most is that even though the V9958 was created for the MSX and actually used in two generations of MSX machines, software to actually take advantage of it was barely created. We have like a dozen games created specifically for the MSX2+ and TurboR, and not all of them use the new video stuff. The MSX2 was just too strong in Japan for companies to actually care about 2+/TR. So for me it is an opportunity to finally create something the shows what the V9958 can do, which basically means to use the hardware scroll feature. Here is something I created years ago, a little technical demo but totally doable as a game, since it is basically a mod of the MSX2 original (for those whom know, the MSX2 game doesn't offer any scroll at all):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa4CFRAOD_w

Edited March 14, 2013 by opcode

[+grips03]

Thanks for keeping it analog video. HDMI would be a waste of time and money. Does V9958 change the screen palette from TMS9928? Native RGB is going to be awesome!

 

Will CV2 be backwards compatible with both CV and SGM games?

 

Will the CV2 PCB be designed so that it could either fit in older CV case or new CV2 case?

 

I order to reduce the number of things to design I would skip making new controllers, as there is always time for that down the road. PCB, software logic and case are already quite a bit of work.

 

I would however put +5 on controller pin 7 like Atari 2600 does as this would allow for rapid fire units, etc. Ensure there is a power led. Add a pause button. Keep the reset button. Remove expansion port to save on costs and complexity. Keep CV cartridge port, however add SD slot to provide for lower cost game publishing.

[opcode]

Thanks for keeping it analog video. HDMI would be a waste of time and money. Does V9958 change the screen palette from TMS9928? Native RGB is going to be awesome!

 

With the V9958 in TMS9928 mode you can select whatever 16 colors you want from 512 available colors, if that is what you want to know. By default it uses a similar palette as the TMS though.

 

Will CV2 be backwards compatible with both CV and SGM games?

 

That is the idea.

 

Will the CV2 PCB be designed so that it could either fit in older CV case or new CV2 case?

 

That is kind of a question mark right now, depends on a number of factors.

 

I order to reduce the number of things to design I would skip making new controllers, as there is always time for that down the road. PCB, software logic and case are already quite a bit of work.

 

Exactly.

 

I would however put +5 on controller pin 7 like Atari 2600 does as this would allow for rapid fire units, etc.

 

I don't think that is possible, as we don't have any free pins left. And the 2600 actually doesn't have a 5V pin either. But I understand and share your concern.

 

Ensure there is a power led. Add a pause button. Keep the reset button. Remove expansion port to save on costs and complexity. Keep CV cartridge port, however add SD slot to provide for lower cost game publishing.

 

All in my list.

Edited March 14, 2013 by opcode

[HDTV1080P]

Sorry HDTV1080P I have to disagree with you, having a HDMI port is fine but in my opinion it still needs an S-Video and maybe component port to run on old CRT TVs at there best. Colecovision 2 will still be a fairly low resolution system that in my opinion and this is just my opinion I do not think would look good on an LCD display. I run all my old systems on Sony CRT TVs that have S-Video and component input and they look much better than all the LCD TVs I have tried. And these days you can still pick up CRT TVs in good condition for very cheep.

 

There are also some old CRT displays with HDMI inputs, however your correct some old CRT displays only have component video and/or S-Video. I have nothing against S-Video and have used it for years. The only problem with S-Video is the consumer electronics manufactories have dropped the interface on all new TV’s (all new TV’s are flat panel HDTV’s). So my suggesting to drop both S-Video and component video was only to keep cost down since HDMI is the future. Low cost $100-$200 DVI/HDMI computer monitors exist today. I did mention composite video as a legacy option. Of course the more outputs the better, however that also raises the cost of the unit.

[HDTV1080P]

I have a meeting in a hour, so I must be quick.

Some projects premises:

 

- Video output is going to be composite, S-video, component, RGB. No HDMI. HDMI is digital realm, the other are analog. The cost to bridge analog to digital is just too high, so if you want HDMI you are going to need a 3rd party device that converts RGB to HDMI.

- We are starting with the bare minimum to give the machine full CV compatibility, except for the V9958 as a replacement for the TMS9928 (because of the added features and superior video output, RGB), and from there we are going to expend until we get a board that costs $150 to manufacture

- We can go all the way up to 16 bits quality graphics and sound, courtesy of the V9990 and YM2151. However that depends on price. As long as it fits the budget we will keep adding features

- Before we go crazy about the 16 bits specs, there is a certain functionally that I want to add to the CV2 that I am sure is going to make a lot of CV fans super happy

- I mentioned 200 bucks in my post yesterday and just mentioned $150 above. The remaining $50 would be a provisioning for a custom case, if we can get enough pre-orders

 

Thanks opcode for the information. Therefore, the new Colecovision 2 is going to have composite video, S-Video, component video, and analog RGB. That is great for someone that wants to connect the video game system to an older CRT or even an older CRT computer monitor. However all the new computer monitors are using either DVI or HDMI connections with no analog connections. There is low cost DVI to HDMI adapters available. I have used a Colecovision computer software emulator on a large flat panel before and it looks great using a digital connection. It’s too bad the ColecoVision II with not have a built in HDMI output which would increase sells. However as a ColecoVision fan I will be interested in the component video output feature. Component video inputs are available on all or most HDTV’s today, however in a few years consumer electronics TV manufactories will most likely drop component video inputs just as they have dropped S-Video from the new HDTV’s.

Edited March 14, 2013 by HDTV1080P