+save2600 Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Oh well, I'll just chalk this up as another homebrew I can't play, like others. Too bad, it looks pretty impressive. Real 2600's are everywhere and they're dirt cheap. Can't imagine only having a FB2 or some other clone as your main Atari 2600. Sell that silly thing and put the money toward a real 2600! 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+stephena Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 The game uses extra RAM, so it won't work on the FB2 like the other extended RAM games ... Chris Oh well, I'll just chalk this up as another homebrew I can't play, like others. Too bad, it looks pretty impressive. I don't mean this to come across as hostile, but your comment sort of bugs me a little, as if you're getting in another dig at the homebrew scene. Excuse me if I'm reading into this too much, that's just the way I'm interpreting your comment. You originally posted in December that you had a FB2. Many comments have since followed that it is not a real console. It is a hacked (with cart slot), 3rd-party product. It's amazing the actual number of games that work on it at all, considering it's not official, original Atari hardware. You really should consider getting the heavy sixer you mention, and having it modded for Svideo/composite output. Then you get the best of both worlds. I can guarantee it's going to get worse from this point on, with the relative explosion of new schemes for Melody/Harmony, and the increased usage of Batari Basic. EDIT: Forgot to mention the longevity thing. IME, if the Atari consoles are anything like other electronics released in the 70s and early 80s, I expect to still be using them when I retire I definitely won't make that claim for a FB2. EDIT2: Also, I don't want anyone to get the idea that the FB2 is an inferior product. For its design goals, it's a very nice little system (I have several). But it is what it is, and it isn't a real console, compatible with a lot of the new carts coming out now. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidcorp Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 The game uses extra RAM, so it won't work on the FB2 like the other extended RAM games ... 28K AND extra RAM?! I am sooooooooo jealous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) Yep, get a real VCS. You can either modify it yourself, or have somebody do it, or buy one that's been done. None of that is hard, or particularly expensive either. Besides, having a play on really old hardware is where the fun is!! That is a big part of why most of us do this stuff. I prefer a six switcher, because I like the look, and it's the one I had way back when as a kid. The rough part in this, and somebody has to say it, happens to be you have no real leverage ComputerSpaceFan. Anyone into this stuff knows about the FB2, and it's accepted that a real VCS is the reference platform. That is what people will code to, because doing it at all is a lot of work, meaning having to support clones and other machines that deviate from the reference platform would increase the work without adding value. Edited April 18, 2012 by potatohead 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComputerSpaceFan Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 The game uses extra RAM, so it won't work on the FB2 like the other extended RAM games ... Chris Oh well, I'll just chalk this up as another homebrew I can't play, like others. Too bad, it looks pretty impressive. I don't mean this to come across as hostile, but your comment sort of bugs me a little, as if you're getting in another dig at the homebrew scene. Excuse me if I'm reading into this too much, that's just the way I'm interpreting your comment. You originally posted in December that you had a FB2. Many comments have since followed that it is not a real console. It is a hacked (with cart slot), 3rd-party product. It's amazing the actual number of games that work on it at all, considering it's not official, original Atari hardware. You really should consider getting the heavy sixer you mention, and having it modded for Svideo/composite output. Then you get the best of both worlds. I can guarantee it's going to get worse from this point on, with the relative explosion of new schemes for Melody/Harmony, and the increased usage of Batari Basic. EDIT: Forgot to mention the longevity thing. IME, if the Atari consoles are anything like other electronics released in the 70s and early 80s, I expect to still be using them when I retire I definitely won't make that claim for a FB2. EDIT2: Also, I don't want anyone to get the idea that the FB2 is an inferior product. For its design goals, it's a very nice little system (I have several). But it is what it is, and it isn't a real console, compatible with a lot of the new carts coming out now. Ooops sorry if my comments came across as hostile, that is definitely not my intention. And apologies to anyone that took my comments that way. I love what everyone is doing in the homebrew scene so please don't mistake my slight and very minor frustration as a complaint. From my bird's eye view it looks so simple for programmers to just tweak a bit of code here or a line of bits there in order to make games work on the FB2 so I always ask when a game is not compatible. But from that other thread about bB Programming I have learned that homebrew on 2600 is far from it so I really only pointed to that thread in case there are other FB2-only owners like me out there also wondering the same thing. Yes I do feel crummy when I can't enjoy the same games as you all, but I am choosing to go this route and it's just the way it is that as we go forward less and less games will run on FB2 hardware. I am totally cool with that, there a hundreds of great homebrews that do work. I guess the only thing that puzzles me, and again this is my bird's eye point of view without understanding the hardware, is that the 2600 is practically ancient technology in the gaming world so to run into backwards compatibility issues with a FB2 seems very very odd to me. I understand it with modern consoles but with 2600 titles it seems very strange. So my comments might come across as anger at programmers, I definitely do not intend that, any anger I may have is at the backwards compatitibility Twilight Zone that hovers in all regions of gaming. Hope that makes sense. Everyone keep up the awesome work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) I guess the only thing that puzzles me, and again this is my bird's eye point of view without understanding the hardware, is that the 2600 is practically ancient technology in the gaming world so to run into backwards compatibility issues with a FB2 seems very very odd to me. It's quite simple - the FB2 uses completely different guts than a 2600. All components were re-created as a single chip, rather than as a series of 30-year-old ones. But it didn't turn out quite right. So therefore, it's not a 2600. It mimics one very closely, but not exactly. So therefore, if you're coding for a real 2600, you may not want to make the sacrifices necessary to get your game to work on an FB2, which isn't a real 2600. For that matter, even some 7800's (which are also not 2600's - but claim compatibility with them) won't play every 2600 game out there, and even between real 2600s there are issues. When homebrews are developed, a lot of testing is done on different 2600 consoles (and 7800's) to ensure the games will play on as many vintage Atari consoles as possible. But not every variation of every console can be tested, and since the FB2 is known not to behave like a real 2600, it's rarely taken into consideration. Edited April 18, 2012 by Nathan Strum 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComputerSpaceFan Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 even between real 2600s there are issues. When homebrews are developed, a lot of testing is done on different 2600 consoles Interesting. This is the first I have ever heard of compatibility issues between 2600's. Just out of curiosity, what sorts of differences are there? I am guessing the Jr and Vader operate a little different than their 70's counterparts but are there major differences between a six-switch and a four-switch 2600 too? (Always happy to hear stories about the inner guts of the 2600) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I am guessing the Jr and Vader operate a little different than their 70's counterparts but are there major differences between a six-switch and a four-switch 2600 too? The Vader is very compatible to the older consoles, but the Chinese Jrs have some slight incompatibilities, especially when it comes to unusual usage to HMOVE. This is often done to optimize the code for speed or space or to make a nicer kernel (without HMOVE blanks). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Propane13 Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Did any consoles not support "illegal opcodes?" Those ones would have differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+stephena Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I guess the only thing that puzzles me, and again this is my bird's eye point of view without understanding the hardware, is that the 2600 is practically ancient technology in the gaming world so to run into backwards compatibility issues with a FB2 seems very very odd to me. It's quite simple - the FB2 uses completely different guts than a 2600. All components were re-created as a single chip, rather than as a series of 30-year-old ones. But it didn't turn out quite right. So therefore, it's not a 2600. It mimics one very closely, but not exactly. It also needs to be said that the FB2 was never really meant to have a cart slot, and to accommodate any old cart you might throw at it. Or I should say, that while the traces were put there to add the slot, it was never guaranteed to work completely. AFAIK, the system works perfectly with the built-in games, and from that POV it's a success. Anything else is gravy. In fact, I'm personally harder on Stella, because at least that's supposed to be an authentic emulation for every possible ROM, and I say that as the person maintaining it. I don't think the FB2 was ever advertised as such. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Saw post above. No worries then. Clearly I was one of the ones taking it badly. My apologies. Game on! (but you really should think about a real VCS --chicks dig it, LOL!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maiki Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) Can someone explain to me why Flashback 2 cannot play a game with extra RAM whereas a regular 2600 can? Thanks. And btw I only have a Chinese Jr. so reading this I might also face some incompatibility issues in the future I guess... Edited April 18, 2012 by maiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iesposta Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I guess the only thing that puzzles me, and again this is my bird's eye point of view without understanding the hardware, is that the 2600 is practically ancient technology in the gaming world so to run into backwards compatibility issues with a FB2 seems very very odd to me. It's quite simple - the FB2 uses completely different guts than a 2600. All components were re-created as a single chip, rather than as a series of 30-year-old ones. But it didn't turn out quite right. So therefore, it's not a 2600. It mimics one very closely, but not exactly. It also needs to be said that the FB2 was never really meant to have a cart slot, and to accommodate any old cart you might throw at it. Or I should say, that while the traces were put there to add the slot, it was never guaranteed to work completely. AFAIK, the system works perfectly with the built-in games, and from that POV it's a success. Anything else is gravy. Millipede is a built-in Flashback 2+ game that uses additional RAM. The problem is that one single data line can't be "brought out" to the cart port mod, so some bank-switch games fail. If you can put Star Castle on the built-in ROM chip, I bet it would run just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Can someone explain to me why Flashback 2 cannot play a game with extra RAM whereas a regular 2600 can? batari posted this about the problem: The problem is that the A12 line is always high on the FB2 so there's pretty much no way to tell the difference between a TIA access and either an access to Pitfall II's DPC registers or Fatal Run's (and others') SARA RAM writes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 H6, L6, and Stella are the reference platforms for the 2600, with H6 being the gold standard. If it runs on H6 then that is all that is required. Anything else is gravy. Just because something is new or different doesn't guarantee compatibility. And the newer the item the less compatible it will be with the original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maiki Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 H6, L6, and Stella are the reference platforms for the 2600, with H6 being the gold standard. If it runs on H6 then that is all that is required. Anything else is gravy. Although I agree, I still prefer Jr. Similar situation with ZX Spectrum. The gold standard is 48k machine from 1982, but there are still people who will be making games on +2A/+3 which are not fully compatible. But the situation is not clear with 2600 because the other models are not fully explored if I understand correctly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) Someone correct me if I am wrong. But. Programmers will write software with the intent that it works on HS, LS and 4S models first. Then Stella & Harmony, especially if they were used as a test/development tool. All the funky one-offs including those all-in-one console/joystick units, or cartridge adapters, flashbackers, superchargers, fgpa based units, rebuilt consoles, consoles with mods, emulators, simulators, carts-with-funky-bank-switch-schemes, all the non-original-Atari stuff, the clones and everything too.. All that.. If your homebrew title works on these then consider it a bonus! You can bet your ass that if a programmer wrote something and it worked on HS but not LS or 4S, then he would go back and continue working (till the end of time if necessary) to make it compatible. Assuming it works on the real genuine consoles but not flashback or a coleco-adapter, say for example, then pffffttthh! who gives a fuck. The programmer probably has no real desire to make it compatible, nor is it usually worth the time and effort to do so in the first place! It is also not to be expected of any programmer to ensure their wares will work on anything other than the first 3 iterations of the VCS. Any user that is expecting otherwise is delusional and has no clue. And that is the way it should be! Edited April 19, 2012 by Keatah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Someone correct me if I am wrong. But. Programmers will write software with the intent that it works on HS, LS and 4S models first. Then Stella & Harmony, especially if they were used as a test/development tool. All the funky one-offs including those all-in-one console/joystick units, or cartridge adapters, flashbackers, superchargers, fgpa based units, rebuilt consoles, consoles with mods, emulators, simulators, carts-with-funky-bank-switch-schemes, all the non-original-Atari stuff, the clones and everything too.. All that.. If your homebrew title works on these then consider it a bonus! The 7800 (and its own funky variants) get a lot of testing from 2600 homebrew programmers as well. Often a problem will show up on some oddball 7800 that won't show up anyplace else, and programmers will go the extra mile to fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elviticus Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Looks incredible cd-w!!! Thanks for making this- I'm buying one as soon as it's out. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iesposta Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 So, godzillajoe, So what do you think about your original post question having been discussed and resulting in a new working 2600 game? That's pretty wonderful, no? Many topics I've started get one or two posts and die. Go Star Castle! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godzillajoe Posted April 23, 2012 Author Share Posted April 23, 2012 Nice! Sometimes opening a can of worms can have a positive outcome. I gotta get some playtesting in soon. Falling out of the loop again. Life. It gets in the way of all the FUN stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+5-11under Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 The plot thickens... or thins: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/698159145/atari-2600-star-castle?ref=live Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 I wonder what flash cart he is talking about... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Wow - $33k down to a $10 pledge - Seems competition worked like it should in a Capitalistic market Im curious what flash cart he is using also - Harmony carts? Actually not a bad package and reasonable prices if you want to give his version a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidcorp Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 WOW, it only took 2 hours for it to make Atari Age! You beat me to the announcement. Hahahaha, yea. That's been in the works for months but I didn't want to say anything until it was ready. So, if anyone is interested check out the Kickstarter http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/698159145/atari-2600-star-castle 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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