What defines a Rogue-like game?

[high voltage]

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[SlowCoder]

This thread pushed me to play a bit of Rogue (PC version) the last couple of days. It's been a few years since last time I played. I've managed level 15 so far, and it seems to be getting exponentially harder. I forgot what this game did to engage my imagination when I played it. Awesome!

[Syntaxerror999]

Off topic but I cant believe Ive gone though my whole life and never played nethack. Android ver is great once you customize the comand buttons.

[Amstari]

Could be done with CompuMate, that'll be ace

 

I had started on a text adventure before my CompuMate keyboard started to malfunction. It wasn't "Rouge-like" but I think a very simple version could be made.

 

I haven't been able to fix mine, so I will buy another one when I find one for a reasonable price.

[+Gemintronic]

Yeah, the Compumate is on my do-want list but it's rare enough and pricey enough that I worry about heavy use. It's too bad I can't program and encode it to tape on PC. Rogue should be possible with just keyboard controllers. I *think* Batari BASIC has some sample code for those things. I haven't heard any negative feedback about my suggested normal controller scheme so I'll go with that.

 

The nice thing is, Nethack and Rogue have been ported to many, many platforms. To my mind, Rogue is the easiest to pick-up-and-play. The fellas at the Temple of the Rogue haven't seen any Atari 2600 ports so maybe this'll be a first.

[Arkhan]

You can't do Rogue on the 2600 without using the keypad. It just won't work.

 

For some inspiration, check out Gateway to Apshai for C64. Even that game requires the use of the keyboard to activate the menus.

 

Then, check out the same game for Coleco.

 

Sword of Fargoal and Telengard are worth checking out also to see some more ideas of what to do.

 

You don't need to display text perse'. The Atari 2600 is more primitive as far as displays go.

 

To me, the biggest part of rogue is the exploration aspect. You only see what your little duder can see. If you don't have that aspect of the game nailed, everything else won't matter

[+Gemintronic]

You can't do Rogue on the 2600 without using the keypad. It just won't work.

 

Given these guidelines:

* You must kill a boss and then come back up to the first level of the dungeon.

* Potions, rings, weapons and armor. Spell scrolls too, I think.

* Stupid, annoying (in my opinion) perma death and starvation.

* Monsters to wear you down.

 

Why wouldn't these controls work?

Potions -> Short FIRE button press

Scrolls -> Long FIRE button press

Attack -> Contact with enemy

Feed -> Automatic use of equipped food when starvation reached

Armor -> Auto erasure of old armor and equip of new piece.

Weapon -> Auto erasure of old weapon and equip of new piece.

Ring -> Auto erasure of old ring and equip of new piece.

Use Stairwell -> Go upstairs/downstairs on contact.

[SlowCoder]

The problem with auto-erase of old, and equip of new is that in a roguelike, different potions, weapons, armor, etc. work differently on different creatures or objects. In my opinion, the option to carry multiple pieces of armor or weapons is a must. And if I pick up a new something, and it's worse than what just got erased, I might not be happy.

 

Other than that, I could se the possibilities with your setup. 128b RAM doesn't give you Mich to work with for a solid game, so I'm guessing random rooms would be out of the question.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2012 by SlowCoder

[GroovyBee]

Part of the appeal of rogue style games is controlling your own destiny and learning what does what to who. If its all "auto" and too many decisions are taken for you it wouldn't be as much fun in my opinion. To have a decent sized and consistent world (so you can retrace your steps) and to keep track of everything in it I think you'll be looking at up to 1K of RAM. I don't know if Melody PCBs support writeable serial EPROMs but that ability would add game save states relatively easily.

[SeaGtGruff]

I'd think a Rogue-like game would almost have to be played on the keypad controllers.

[+Gemintronic]

@GroovyBee

to keep track of everything in it I think you'll be looking at up to 1K of RAM

 

Well, right now I'm not using SuperChip memory at all:

http://www.atariage....86-destiny-wip/

 

@SlowCoder

I'm guessing random rooms would be out of the question.

 

Each complete dungeon is generated by pseudo random numbers as well as item and monster placement so ROM/RAM space isn't a constraint. Each floor on each maze can be completely retraced. Items stay in the same room until you pick them up. Then EVERY instance of that item gets warped to a different room.

 

Here is the current working (i.e. in the game now) feature set for the dungeon:

16 basic room types (not including rare rooms)

8 room structure styles

16 x 8 = 128 Unique Rooms

256 level dungeon consisting of 256 x 256 screens per level.

All in all, my Adventure/Roguelike should have 1,677,7216 screens per gaming session. Each time the game is powered on a game seed is used so really 256 1,677,7216 screen dungeons are possible.

 

if I pick up a new something, and it's worse than what just got erased, I might not be happy.

What about having the old item drop on the floor when you pick up a new one?

 

@SeaGtGruff

I'd think a Rogue-like game would almost have to be played on the keypad controllers.

Based on my response here:

http://www.atariage....25#entry2547779

 

Wouldn't that be sufficient?

Edited June 25, 2012 by theloon

[SlowCoder]

@SlowCoder

I'm guessing random rooms would be out of the question.

Each complete dungeon is generated by pseudo random numbers as well as item and monster placement so ROM/RAM space isn't a constraint. Each floor on each maze can be completely retraced. Items stay in the same room until you pick them up. Then EVERY instance of that item gets warped to a different room.

 

Here is the current working (i.e. in the game now) feature set for the dungeon:

16 basic room types (not including rare rooms)

8 room structure styles

16 x 8 = 128 Unique Rooms

256 level dungeon consisting of 256 x 256 screens per level.

All in all, my Adventure/Roguelike should have 1,677,7216 screens per gaming session. Each time the game is powered on a game seed is used so really 256 1,677,7216 screen dungeons are possible.

Wouldn't you need to use RAM to hold the random values for each room type and location at least for the current level? You'd also need to keep track of what items the player has, health, damage, mana (if that's part of the game), locations of monsters as they move around, with all of their dynamic stats, what items are in each room, etc. That's a lot of data to fit into 128B RAM.

 

if I pick up a new something, and it's worse than what just got erased, I might not be happy.

What about having the old item drop on the floor when you pick up a new one?

Or maybe allow the player to "look" at the item's stats and decide if they want to pick it up.

 

I'm not in any way trying to talk you out of trying to build your game. If you want to give it a go, I say go for it!

[+Gemintronic]

Memory turns out not to be a problem because of the way I use pseudo random numbers. Each of the possible 256 Dungeons have 256 floors that consist of 256x256 rooms (not counting each room has a secret alternative layout). There are 128 possible room types.

 

The 256 Dungeons can be completely retraced from Floor #1 to Floor #256. The caveat being each room has a secret alternative version that you may encounter. The secret version of each room is also fixed/static. The whole game world consists literally of these variables: dungeonlvl, worldx, worldy, rclass, roomtype and gameseed. Of those, only gameseed actually defines what the world looks like: the others are derived from gameseed (rclass/roomtype) or just store the current location of the player (dungeonlvl/worldx/worldy).

 

Each item, monster and stairwell has its own location. Item locations will not change unit you pick it up. Then all other instances of that item in the dungeon will change. So, if you leave a potion alone on floor #1 and never pick up another potion you can retrace your steps and pick up that potion back in the first level. Each item location takes up a single variable.

 

Monsters will also have a single variable for location. They will haunt that location until you kill them. As with items when removed the next instance of that monster will relocate. If you leave the monster alone it will still be there no matter what distance the player goes. The last encountered monster will chase you for a few screens but reset to their spawn point after awhile.

 

Basically, from the Dungeon layout to item and monster placement the minimum thing I store is a single seed value. Memory is not an issue thanks to pseudo random numbers!

 

Each potion, ring or scroll has its own unique color. In Rogue potion effects are not known until tried. So, you'll not know from game to game if a yellow potion will heal. Once you've tried a potion and noted its color the next potion of that same color will have the same effect. Again, the next game yellow might be a sleep potion for that session.

Edited June 25, 2012 by theloon

[GroovyBee]

Pseudo random is good for level generation and monster/item placement. To make a persistent world (to make a much more in depth and enjoyable game) you need to start storing where items are dropped in a room (plus any stats they might have) and keep a track of monster stats and their locations. All that variable storage adds up so I think you'll soon exceed what SARA offers too.

[+Gemintronic]

That really depends on how much persistence I allow. If I want to keep track of player modified objects I'd need to waste 2 variables for each object (worldx/worldy). 3 If I go multi-floor (dungeonlvl/worldx/worldy).

 

Persistence can really gouge memory for sure. How much should be allowed is the question.

 

Here are some possible scenarios:

 

A. Objects left on ground disappear after leaving a room. BEST SAVINGS/HORRIBLE PERSISTENCE

B. Objects are persistent until the player leaves the floor object is on. OK SAVINGS/OK PERSISTENCE

C. Player dropped items are kept track of in the entire Dungeon. HORRIBLE SAVINGS/BEST PERSISTENCE

D. Players may drop off items at their home base ala Adventure. OK SAVINGS/GOOD PERSISTENCE

 

Monster stats only need to be retained until the player is out of range (game will assume monster wandered back to his lair and recuperated).

Edited June 25, 2012 by theloon

[GroovyBee]

Given the size of the world you want to create I can see tracking back to base to drop off items becoming quite tiresome once you leave the first level.

 

Although not really a rogue-like game something like Ranarama would be quite fun on the 2600 :-

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranarama

[+Gemintronic]

Out of the four choices a home base at least had some interest eh? How about on each floor you may encounter a tent where goods can be stored Dr. Who Tardis style.

 

P.S. Ranarama does give me some ideas on room generation. Hmmn..

Edited June 25, 2012 by theloon

[GroovyBee]

Having to make your way to a "storage locker" to drop/collect items would kinda get in the way of exploring and hacking and slashing your way to victory in my opinion.

[+Gemintronic]

Having to make your way to a "storage locker" to drop/collect items would kinda get in the way of exploring and hacking and slashing your way to victory in my opinion.

 

Then that leaves us with the other three options (unless there's yet another way)

A. Objects left on ground disappear after leaving a room. BEST SAVINGS/HORRIBLE PERSISTENCE

B. Objects are persistent until the player leaves the floor object is on. OK SAVINGS/OK PERSISTENCE

C. Player dropped items are kept track of in the entire Dungeon. HORRIBLE SAVINGS/BEST PERSISTENCE

 

I'd say Nethack is complicated enough that persistence becomes more important. Rogue has few types of objects and seems to focus on persistence less. It's more about exploring the procedural dungeon and figuring out which items do what (as the different styles of items change effects every game).

 

Death in Adventure where opened castle gates and items are retained is almost meaningless. Rogue's lack of persistence (permadeath) and changing properties makes each game unique. It's more difficult but much more rewarding when you finish.

Edited June 25, 2012 by theloon

[GroovyBee]

I've no idea if weapons can receive damage or need repairing in your game but if weapon damage is allowed it would be pretty annoying if your weapon broke and you went down a level to get your 2nd best weapon back and it had been moved. Similarly if you back out of a battle to go and get some food after kicking the snot out out of monster only to find it fully rejuvenated (because you'd gone too far from it) and you arrive back weak but with enough energy to take it. These are all things to consider when balancing out the game.

[jhd]

I've played several of these type of games (e.g. Rogue, NetHack, Larn, Angband), but none very recently.

 

Angband does provide "storage lockers" at the surface level, but it also has a very complex overworld with multiple towns, winderness areas, etc.

 

How is the presistence of objects handled in these other games? Is there a "standard"?

 

I'd vote for:

B. Objects are persistent until the player leaves the floor object is on. OK SAVINGS/OK PERSISTENCE

 

Presumably the monsters, other adventurers, etc. are also wandering the dungeon and collecting your detritus.

[SlowCoder]

I would have been nice, I think, if Rogue was multi-level persistent, but it wasn't to be. Here, we are talking about the 2600, so I think it would be too much to assume multi-level persistence would work well. I appreciate the concept of the "storage locker" on each level, but I think it would be too time-consuming for the player.

 

I opt for B.

 

It sounds like you have an interesting plan going, using the pseudo randomization to control a lot of the data.

Edited June 25, 2012 by SlowCoder

[Godzilla]

has anyone played baroque on the wii? (port of an old saturn game,) really fun modernish first person rogue-a-like with wii-mote sword swinging

 

wonder if a-davies tile engine (from boulder dash,) would suit a 2600 rouge...

[+Gemintronic]

Two votes for persistent stuff per dungeon floor. No love for a Tardis style inventory locker.

 

I love Baroque! If I made an Atari 2600 version it'd be called "Broq" Another instance of persistence per dungeon floor. Baroque, however, has a LOT of stuff going on. Each monster is actively rolling around and doing things. It'd be hard to fake on the 2600.

 

It's up to the higher level bB users to connect the dots with Davies engine or the 32 character text engine. Someone needs to make the hooks that allow bB to talk to the graphics engines. I think my game can be done without waiting and hoping for such things.

 

The PC was good for text graphics. The 2600 is good for icons/symbols. In a way, Rogue will have to be translated through the filter of Atari Adventure. A strict Rogue is both infeasible and unappealing on the 2600. Too many compromises and I just end up with another Atari Adventure clone. I'm looking for the sweet spot. The comments so far really help in the quest!

Edited June 26, 2012 by theloon

[Hakogame 箱亀]

Of the few rogue-likes I've played, the more enjoyable ones were the ones that left out the whole "hunger" deal.

 

Ever tried Legends of Yore?