Gauging interest New XF551 Drive mainboard

[Dropcheck]

I have both a stock XF and a 3.5" XF. Will this board work for the 3.5" XF?

If so, I'll get 2.

 

I am planning that it will support both versions as far as power and data connections. Of course a OS that supports 3 1/2 is needed. I think both Bob Wooley's and the Hyper XF have versions that do.

[MEtalGuy66]

I got a question:

Is this board going to actually supply +12v for people who want to use a 5.25" drive mech? Or is that going to require some kind of external ass-rig (like the 8bitDomain boards did)?

 

Second, Why not not design the board footprint to fit a 1050 case instead? Anyone who has an XF551 case already has an XF551 mainboard. Yeah they are crappy build quality.. But they are easy to repair, and they arent prone to burning up or anything.. 1050s, on the other hand are very common and there's currently no easy upgrade path to a double-sided or 3.5" mech for them (even though its very easy to physically stick these types of drive mechs in the case).. and alot of people actually prefer the XL hardware look/feel to the junky (by comparisson) XE stuff..

Edited June 28, 2012 by MEtalGuy66

[Marius]

It does not happen a lot, but I agree with Metalguy66 here.

 

A new, fresh designed 1050 PCB with all bells and whistles would I also prefer.

 

Especially when that will give us the possibility to mount a standard PC 5.25" floppy mechanism in the 1050 case, and actually USE it with the installed PCB. A built-in Happy would be great too.

 

Although I also would be interested in a speedy XF clone.

[BillC]

I got a question:

Is this board going to actually supply +12v for people who want to use a 5.25" drive mech? Or is that going to require some kind of external ass-rig (like the 8bitDomain boards did)?

 

Second, Why not not design the board footprint to fit a 1050 case instead? Anyone who has an XF551 case already has an XF551 mainboard. Yeah they are crappy build quality.. But they are easy to repair, and they arent prone to burning up or anything.. 1050s, on the other hand are very common and there's currently no easy upgrade path to a double-sided or 3.5" mech for them (even though its very easy to physically stick these types of drive mechs in the case).. and alot of people actually prefer the XL hardware look/feel to the junky (by comparisson) XE stuff..

There are links in posts #12&13 to an eBay auction of the type of dual-voltage external power supply it's designed to use.

[+Allan]

Here's another vote for what MetalGuy66 said. I've had so may 1050s die on my. It seems a shame to see them all go to waist. The XF551 drives are so rare when you see one on eBay it usually goes for $80 or higher.

 

Allan

[+wood_jl]

I'm in with Metalguy66 and Allan. It had never occurred to me to think about such a suggestion (1050) but it would be great. There are so many more 1050s that there could possibly be more interest?

[Roydea6]

I'm in with Metalguy66 and Allan.

DITTO...

[+bob1200xl]

Be nice to use a 65xxx base rather than the 8040 thing... no way you're going to get a track buffer in the XF551 hardware. Atari source code is available for the 810 and hacked code has been done on the 1050.

 

Is Happy code available?

 

You could set up CF cards and such.

 

Lots of possibilities... It would be a computer system in its own right.

 

Bob

[+Larry]

There are almost always problems with asking for a "4th Wish."

 

FWIW the original proposal seemed pretty reasonable, and designing a whole new drive looks "beyond the scope."

 

I do think that having some type of power connection jack on the board that includes +12VDC is a good idea

 

-Larry

[unholy]

+1 to the 1050 form factor idea.

[MEtalGuy66]

Using that external supply is a crappy Idea if you ask me.. Yet ANOTHER custom PSU brick to keep up with.. It would cost pennies to put a bridge rectifier on board and a couple of modern switching regulators.. ANd then you could use the stock 1050/XF551 PSU, or any of a milion others that use the familliar/common "barrell" connector and have at least 12v 1amp output.. Also, you wouldnt have to enlarge the hole in the case.

Edited June 28, 2012 by MEtalGuy66

[Dropcheck]

Hi,

 

Everyone has an idea or is entitled to have an idea. As I stated earlier I am gauging interest in demand for a new XF551 mainboard with a few additional features included. If you don't want one thats fine, if you want a 1050 yada yada that's fine too. Go ahead and design one and offer it up for everyone here. Heck, I might even do that later myself or buy it from you.

 

The 1050 5 1/4 drive mech is not standard, which means you would have to find an Atarized version as well as redo the mainboard. Or simply canabalize parts from other Atari 1050s. As MetalGuy66 has already admitted there is currently no easy upgrade path for doublesided or 3 1/2" drive mechs with the original board without a total redesign of the board and roms and drive mech.

 

Or you could replace the insides completely and use the 1050 case as a container for a reshaped the XF551 mainboard. Once I debug my version, it should be a simple matter to reshape the board for a 1050 case. I kinda like the XL line visionally better than the XE too.

 

As far as an external power supply, there is no such thing as a standard power supply jack or a standard power supply. Every manufacture seems to have their own take on what is considered standard. I know of at least 10 different ones that I have in my own home right now. Atari doesn't even have a standard power supply. Sure some power supplies work with multiple devices, but there is nothing standard across all the devices. The most you can say is that they all have an AC barrel jack which only handles one voltage level and you are still left with a brick transformer outside of the case. Of course you have to have extra circuitry inside to parse the needed DC voltages and amperage.

 

My choice allows you to replace the entire power supply with anything that outputs +5 and +12 V upto 2 A DC. At most if you can't find the right connector on the power supply, you can order the correct one from Mouser or Digikey and solder/splice it on the end of the power supply cable, shrink wrap the connector and go.

 

Lastly as I stated this is to be a drop in replacement. That means no case modifications need be done except for a switch to select between OSes if you want too.

[Dropcheck]

Hi

 

One other thought is that I am considering adding onto the board as seperate upgrade boards some SIO options.....SIO2SD, SIO2CF SIO21050 etc. There would be space under the drive mech and there is a lip on the front of the drive for a SIO2SD/CF connector. There's also space on the back of the case for a SIO21050/USB connector.

 

Definitely would require a major case mod for the connectors. Not sure if that isn't really a individual thing. I could offer the board I guess.

 

As I said in the first post I am attempting to add a much prized mod from Atari's XF551 past, but I am waiting on approval from the owner. He has asked for some time to gather his old notes and files and see if the mod can be reproduced. I'll know more sometime around the middle of July.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Dropcheck

[MEtalGuy66]

There certainly is a predominant standard for power supplies with external drives (and other peripherals) on ATARIs.. The 1050, 810, XF551, Indus GT, RANA 1000, all the ASTRA drives, etc.. (not to mention the atari 400,800,1200XL, 1027, ICD MIO,etc. etc. etc.) all use a very standard internal power circuit. These devices take in power on a standard "barell" type connector and have an internal AC voltage doubler, bridge rectifier, 7805 and 7812 regulators.. What this means is that they can use any PSU that uses that standard barell connector and outputs >= 9vac or >= 12vdc with sufficient current capacity. It most certainly is a very SIMPLE and STANDARD power input circuit design, and can provide both 5vdc and 12vdc internal sources depending on the needs of the device..

 

As I said before.. anyone who has an XF551 case also has an XF551 mainboard.. The XF551 mainboard is dirt-simple to repair, and the design is such that they very rarely "burn up" or catastrophically fail needing replacement.

 

A much better application for your idea would be a replacement board for the 1050 case based on the XF551 design. Otherwise, what you are talking about doing really doesnt have a very big market.. Your not talking about adding any additional features.

 

Where switching OSes is concerned, Anyone can install a 27128 with various OSes along with a couple of pulldowns and a switch to a stock mainboard and do what you are talking about very easily.. And besides switching between 5.25" and 3.5" mechs, I cant think of more than one OS you'd ever want to switch.. All the stock ATARI OSes are buggy (some less than others).. HyperXF works with PAL/NTSC, supports "standard" ultraspeed operation, and has all the bugs fixed (not to speak of any of the enhanced features it adds). I guess you could have 5.25"(D1-D4), 5.25"(D5-D8), 3.5"(D1-D4), and 3.5"(D5-D8)..

 

And removing the ability to use a standard atari drive PSU is a very poor compromise considering the 5 minutes of extra layout work on the board and $2.50 worth of extra components it would take to retain the stock PSU spec...

Edited June 29, 2012 by MEtalGuy66

[Marius]

Hi,

 

Everyone has an idea or is entitled to have an idea. As I stated earlier I am gauging interest in demand for a new XF551 mainboard with a few additional features included. If you don't want one thats fine, if you want a 1050 yada yada that's fine too. Go ahead and design one and offer it up for everyone here. Heck, I might even do that later myself or buy it from you.

 

Hi Dropcheck!

 

I can understand your reaction, but all the responses to your idea prove that your idea is great. People are really interested, but realised that your idea might be even better if it was not an atari XF551 board, but a 1050... It is not a disqualification of your idea, but a great feedback. If your idea was not good, no one had respond. I would still be interested in your XF551 board... but perhaps it is good to think this over little time more, to get even better ideas, and come with a very nice final solution. Please do not feel pressed or offended.

 

 

Or you could replace the insides completely and use the 1050 case as a container for a reshaped the XF551 mainboard. Once I debug my version, it should be a simple matter to reshape the board for a 1050 case. I kinda like the XL line visionally better than the XE too.

 

That was my idea too. If it is (easy) to put in a stock 5.25" drive mechanism into a 1050 case (I never did that), and if it is easy to replace that front thing of the drive, so you can still have a brown front... and handle... that would do the trick for me too, definitely.

 

My choice allows you to replace the entire power supply with anything that outputs +5 and +12 V upto 2 A DC. At most if you can't find the right connector on the power supply, you can order the correct one from Mouser or Digikey and solder/splice it on the end of the power supply cable, shrink wrap the connector and go.

 

I agree with you on this. I have always been hating the voltage transformers circuits with all those capacitor sh*t inside my diskdrives. I want my drives to last as long as possible, without the need of replacing parts... a power supply is much easier to replace. And besides that: the existing 9VAC PSU's (well... the ones I have here) make an awful lot of loud noise. Honest... the bzzzzz coming out of my XF551 PSU's... it's really not funny. So a new PSU is perfect. I'd say there are enough existing alternatives for that indeed.

 

Anyway: go for it... and please: do you have any ideas of a speedy-xf?

[olavese@online.no]

I would rather have the sleek looking XF-551 running again, not looking like a 1050. I would love replacement boards that I can exchange for the board in my XF-551 that is poorly designed (or rather produced maybe). They all seem to suffer from pulling in and out a SIO cable more than a few times.

 

Keep it up

[Dropcheck]

Anyway: go for it... and please: do you have any ideas of a speedy-xf?

 

I have looked at that option. I am not that familar with speedy-XF but after reading about it here http://members.chello.nl/taf.offenga/megazine/ISSUE7-XFSPEEDY.html It is doubtful. The reviewer seems to think that it is just copy of the 1050 speedy. Also apparently the XF551 cpu is replaced by one of the boards in the kit. Not really what I was aiming for. Still since my version will socket the cpu you have the option to install it a little easier. Might be an add on later on, assuming no one else is working on reproducing the XF Speedy.

[Mathy]

Hello guys (and girls)

 

The rights for the XF-Speedy are owned by the ABBUC, but it shouldn't be to hard to get the OK to manufacture some.

 

The big advantage of the XF551 board is that it uses standard PC drives. So all you need to hook up a 5.25" or 3.5" drive you have lying around to your Atari is order one of Dropcheck's boards.

 

It would be nice if you could still choose the Atari power supply (via a separate PCB that fits inside the XF's case?). These power circuits can be improved upon, so they don't have to get as warm as the usually get. IIRC mega-Hz has an upgrade for that.

 

Mathy

[frogstar_robot]

How hard would it be to make a little board that sits on the connectors Dropcheck intends to provide that will accept 12V from an Atari 12V PSU? If this installs neatly or at least easily instead of what he intends to put in place then it needn't be an ass-rig.

 

Dropcheck already seems open to a version that will fit in the 1050 case though it will still require a standard 3.5" or 5.25" mech. Making it support the 1050 mech would be significant additional engineering and I think his refusal to do that reasonable. Add in the fact that some kind of SD slot is easily added and it sounds like a very nice storage option to me.

[+wood_jl]

Wouldn't adding an SD card slot necessitate a hole in the case, from which to access it, or necessitate case disassembly to access the card?

 

I dunno about you guys, but there are so many Sdrive/SIO-2-whatever solutions already available, that when I take out a disk drive, I intend to use actual disks. If it's SD cards I want to use, I'd prefer to avoid the wear and tear on my real drive, entirely. For SD card use, a tiny Sdrive/SIO2SD is considerably more convenient than a huge disk drive with its power supply.

Edited June 29, 2012 by wood_jl

[unholy]

Just to clarify: nobody said anything about support for 1050 drive mechanism. The suggestion was simply to make the board fit the 1050 case layout. (1050 case + Dropcheck's XF551 repro board + stock 5.25''/3.5'' drive = XF1051?)

[Fox-1 / mnx]

If it is (easy) to put in a stock 5.25" drive mechanism into a 1050 case (I never did that), and if it is easy to replace that front thing of the drive, so you can still have a brown front... and handle... that would do the trick for me too, definitely.

 

A regular 5,25" mechanic does fit a 1050 case without issues if there's no PCB inside. It fits perfectly on the stock pillars but that big metal plate to cool the voltage regulators on the original PCB is about 5mm too big, which is no problem without a PCB.

 

 

Note that above mechanic is a bit lower profile then a standardized one, required to fit the additional 3,5" ST mechanic.

 

 

I have always been hating the voltage transformers circuits with all those capacitor sh*t inside my diskdrives.

 

True. I think the most useful option is the +5VDC / +12VDC requirement. Those PS' are easily available (used with USB<>IDE hard disk adapters for example) and it's also possible to run it from an ATX PS as some may use anyways to run their 8-bit stuff.

 

 

I want my drives to last as long as possible, without the need of replacing parts... a power supply is much easier to replace. And besides that: the existing 9VAC PSU's (well... the ones I have here) make an awful lot of loud noise.

 

They also break down after a while (no, not only just the fuse). One may say the disk drive itself will do too but I have more working Atari disk drives than I have working Atari power supplies. 2 Of these already have their power supply replaced with a general 10V transformer.

 

 

and please: do you have any ideas of a speedy-xf?

 

As long the bugs/incompatibilities of the original design aren't solved (it isn't compatible with all XF drives, reason (still?) unknown) it's not worth it I guess.

[Mathy]

Hello Robert

 

The original XF Speedy was a bad design, since it doesn't work in all XF's. But he or she who'll recreate it, should be smart enough, to redo the whole thing in such a way, that it WILL work on all XF's. Otherwise (s)he'll probably be virtually tarred and feathered.

 

Mathy

[Marius]

Well... when the XF is upgraded with a compatible speedy of happy-like-thing, it will definately be a very interesting diskdrive. Till then I stay with the HYPERXF upgrade. I'm rather positive about my XF551's, and those drives look pretty cool in my XE setup.

[Fox-1 / mnx]

I think a Speedy-XF (as an upgrade) isn't/wasn't a smart move. The features and specs (while it works reliable) are great but it's not an XF551 anymore.

 

Basically, the only XF parts kept after doing the Speedy-XF upgrade are the power circuit, the mechanic and the WD1772. I think that it's much more convenient to do it the other way around: Take the Speedy-XF design and throw a WD1772 (or "better") at it. Klaus Peters did about the same with the Floppy 2000, which is basically an Atari 1050 with Speedy 1050 upgrade but eliminating the Atari 1050 (uses a slightly modified PC style mechanic).

 

With today's available electronics (in the hands of the right people) I don't think it's a big problem to develop a PCB that's able to drive 8 PC-style disk drive mechanics, both 5,25" and 3,5", and let the Atari handle it as 8 separate Speedy-compatible 180/360/720(/1440?) disk drives, but who really wants such a beast? If it could "emulate" a stock 1050 in handling copy-protected disks 100% I'd surely want such a thing but I think I'm on my own with this :-)