Neo Geo v.s Atari jaguar

[+Stephen]

48 minutes ago, dougal22 said:

I had two games on my Jaguar,

Well, that definitely makes you an expert on the system, that's for sure!

[Editorb]

I misquoted Mr. Drover:

 

“I hate asparagus, but I don't talk about it on the Asparagus.com message board."

[BassGuitari]

18 hours ago, dougal22 said:

I had a Jaguar in my collection but I sold it because the games it had were garbage and the controller was horrible too. 

18 hours ago, dougal22 said:

Sorry to say it especially here but the Atari Jaguar is one of the worst consoles ever overall. Very few games and almost all of them are rubbish.

1 hour ago, dougal22 said:

I won't argue with the fact that Wolfenstein 3D looks awesome on the Jaguar. I had two games on my Jaguar, Wolfenstein 3D which I liked and Cybermorph which was garbage. My problem with the Jaguar is not as such the specs of the system but the lack of third party support for the console.

 

Okay, hang on: so you only had two games, and you liked one of them, but you decided the entire library is garbage?

 

[+Stephen]

21 minutes ago, BassGuitari said:

 

Okay, hang on: so you only had two games, and you liked one of them, but you decided the entire library is garbage?

 

It only took 21 years to reach that conclusion, so maybe not much thought was put into it.

[dougal22]

48 minutes ago, BassGuitari said:

 

Okay, hang on: so you only had two games, and you liked one of them, but you decided the entire library is garbage?

 

I did lots of Googling to see what games were released and looked at reviews of games. Almost all the games released on the system bar a few exceptions (such as Wolfenstein) were either games nobody ever heard about by developers nobody ever heard about or else modern versions of Atari arcade hits from the 1980's. Atari destroyed their good reputation as a console maker with the video game crash of 1983 and never really recovered and mostly relied on its back library of arcade games.

 

Despite coming from the Amiga camp (I had an Amiga 500 Plus) during those times I do truly respect the Atari ST line especially for its leading role in MIDI music but even for the amount of third party support for games it received even though especially in its later years programmers got lazy and made rubbish ports of multi-platform games which didn't take advantage of the STe which was similar in capabilities to the Amiga with its new sound hardware and blitter and the added bonus of easily upgradable 30 pin ram. 

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, dougal22 said:

I did lots of Googling to see what games were released and looked at reviews of games. Almost all the games released on the system bar a few exceptions (such as Wolfenstein) were either games nobody ever heard about by developers nobody ever heard about or else modern versions of Atari arcade hits from the 1980's. Atari destroyed their good reputation as a console maker with the video game crash of 1983 and never really recovered and mostly relied on its back library of arcade games.

 

Despite coming from the Amiga camp (I had an Amiga 500 Plus) during those times I do truly respect the Atari ST line especially for its leading role in MIDI music but even for the amount of third party support for games it received even though especially in its later years programmers got lazy and made rubbish ports of multi-platform games which didn't take advantage of the STe which was similar in capabilities to the Amiga with its new sound hardware and blitter and the added bonus of easily upgradable 30 pin ram. 

Riiight, nobody ever heard of Flashback, NBA Jam, Worms or Theme Park, of course  

 

I guess your are not very familiar with consoles of the 90s. Ok, no problem. But how it comes that you try to irritate forum members with nonsensical condemnations like "worst console of all time?!

 

 

 

 

[+cubanismo]

Personally, not irritated. I like to hear all opinions and experiences.

 

I love the big cat, but can easily see that if I had bought one when it was in production, I may have been disappointed given the marketing and retail catalog. It's not like when I show some friend my Jaguar games they're suddenly a convert and regret their PS1 or N64 purchases 30 years ago. Slightly amused is generally the best reaction I get.

[agradeneu]

52 minutes ago, cubanismo said:

Personally, not irritated. I like to hear all opinions and experiences.

 

I love the big cat, but can easily see that if I had bought one when it was in production, I may have been disappointed given the marketing and retail catalog. It's not like when I show some friend my Jaguar games they're suddenly a convert and regret their PS1 or N64 purchases 30 years ago. Slightly amused is generally the best reaction I get.

Well, after 30 years, we can enjoy all classic consoles without regret. And if some ppl bought a Jag dirt cheap in a clearence sale end of 1997, I guess they are very happy now😅

[KrunchyTC]

I would like to know what new stuff programmers have learned about the Jaguar after 30 years. Has it been determined how close the Jag can get to PS1's 3D capabilities yet? I know the Jag can do absolutely stunningly beautiful 2D graphics, there is no denying that!

Edited April 26 by KrunchyTC

[+cubanismo]

4 hours ago, KrunchyTC said:

Has it been determined how close the Jag can get to PS1's 3D capabilities yet?

If you know how hardware works in great detail, yes.

If you don't, no one seems to have constructed a suitable metaphor such that it can be communicated in a manner that results in a consensus, but that shouldn't prevent anyone from discussing it vociferously if the past 30 years of forum content are an indicator.

[alucardX]

On 4/25/2024 at 6:36 AM, dougal22 said:

I won't argue with the fact that Wolfenstein 3D looks awesome on the Jaguar. I had two games on my Jaguar, Wolfenstein 3D which I liked and Cybermorph which was garbage. My problem with the Jaguar is not as such the specs of the system but the lack of third party support for the console. Also from the few games that actually made it to the system almost none of them took advantage of the claimed 64 bit power. Games on the Playstation and Saturn, both 32 bit albeit released after the Jaguar look better. Heck, most Jaguar games don't look much better than similar games on the 16 bit SNES. So no matter what the hardware can do, without decent 3rd party support its bound to fail. Same with the Atari Lynx, a portable which holds very dear to me because it was my first handheld. It was technically superior to the pea green Gameboy or even the Game Gear and had a few great games which I already mentioned, it also has a lot of crappy games. I don't care for the recycled old Atari arcade ports they made for it just because it lacked support from publishers. Honestly, I am not an Atari basher. So much so that my first ever computer was a 65XE and I have fond memories of playing games like Henry's House, Pac Man, Mario Bros, Pitfall etc. 

You're entitled to your opinion. I would suggest trying a few more games and consider that the bits mean little to nothing. Try playing Tempest 2k, NBA Jam and other games. I personally really love Defender 2K but I also know that is not everyone's cup of tea. The Jaguar was positioned strangely in the market, not by design but by the unknown but inevitable direction of gaming. They were trying to out do the SNES and MD and did so quite well. They threw in very fast (For the time) 3D and they really did have some good ideas that could have been executed better. You look at the interviews by members of the Atari team from the time and tell me that those people weren't passionate and trying their hardest make the best with what they had.

 

Some games suffered at the hands of inexperience, budgets or bad tools. The Jag is a 2D powerhouse and if you look at something like Skyhammer you can see just how much they were able to pull out of the system in terms of 3D. I'd bet that someone today could optimize that game to run better but only because we know more now than was known then. Could it out perform the PSX in 3D? Should it be able to? Hardware was increasing in power quite fast in those days and the PSX is how much newer than the Jag?

 

Nothing I said here should be taken negatively btw. Hang out, enjoy the forums.

[zzip]

4 hours ago, cubanismo said:

f you don't, no one seems to have constructed a suitable metaphor such that it can be communicated in a manner that results in a consensus,

So true,  and if you ask you'll get admonished by both the people who know the potential but refuse to explain, and the people who believe in mythical untapped Jaguar potential.

 

But due to Moore's Law, you can make a reasonable guess of what it's capable of for a system of that timeframe and price.

[dougal22]

1 hour ago, alucardX said:

You're entitled to your opinion. I would suggest trying a few more games and consider that the bits mean little to nothing. Try playing Tempest 2k, NBA Jam and other games. I personally really love Defender 2K but I also know that is not everyone's cup of tea. The Jaguar was positioned strangely in the market, not by design but by the unknown but inevitable direction of gaming. They were trying to out do the SNES and MD and did so quite well. They threw in very fast (For the time) 3D and they really did have some good ideas that could have been executed better. You look at the interviews by members of the Atari team from the time and tell me that those people weren't passionate and trying their hardest make the best with what they had.

 

Some games suffered at the hands of inexperience, budgets or bad tools. The Jag is a 2D powerhouse and if you look at something like Skyhammer you can see just how much they were able to pull out of the system in terms of 3D. I'd bet that someone today could optimize that game to run better but only because we know more now than was known then. Could it out perform the PSX in 3D? Should it be able to? Hardware was increasing in power quite fast in those days and the PSX is how much newer than the Jag?

 

Nothing I said here should be taken negatively btw. Hang out, enjoy the forums.

I never bashed the actual specs or power of the Jaguar. To be honest thinking about it the worst console of all time is probably the Philips CDI. Anyway, the specs of a console don't mean much if there aren't many good games for the system. Sure the Jaguar had a few great games as you and others have mentioned but nowhere near enough to persuade many people to choose it over a Nintendo, Sega or Sony console. Yeah it had Wolfenstein and a damn nice version of it at that but by that time many people had a PC and could play it on that. Sure it had Flashback but again that game was on the Megadrive, PC, Amiga and other platforms. I won't comment on NBA Jam because I don't like sports games nor will I comment much on games like Tempest 2K and Defender 2K though it does go back to what I said about rehashing old Atari arcade games and by that time almost all arcade genre games except for fighting games and racing games were no longer popular. Around the time the Jaguar was new and supported by Atari I had an Amiga 500 plus, a 486DX2/66, a SNES and not long after a Saturn (which I sold to buy a Playstation not long after) and had no interest at all in the Jaguar. Probably around 2005 I had bought a second hand boxed Jaguar with two games, Wolfenstein 3D and Cybermorph. Wolf 3d was great but Cybermorph was a joke. The console was a UK PAL-I but I live in a PAL-B/G region and so the sound didn't work and I only had an RF cable for it. Anyway, its not the only console I think was not good as I also feel the same about the 3DO and CDI and despite being an Amiga fanboy even the Amiga CD32 was in my opinion a stupid console and yes I do have one but never use it. 

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, dougal22 said:

I never bashed the actual specs or power of the Jaguar. To be honest thinking about it the worst console of all time is probably the Philips CDI.

5200, 7800, Sega CD, Apple Pippin, CD32, 32X were all consoles not delivering what they initially promised.

 

There is not really anything substantial that objectively would back up "worst console of all time". 

From the technological side, the Jaguar falls short of its potential but that is what keeps people interested.  

 

The "Even the 32 bit PSX and Saturn were more powerful than the  "64 bit" Jaguar - Jaguar sucks!" argument is lame and was debunked several times.

The graphics hardware of the PSX and Saturn was more advanced than the Jaguar and the "64 bits" logo does not change that. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 26 by agradeneu

[KrunchyTC]

9 hours ago, cubanismo said:

If you know how hardware works in great detail, yes.

If you don't, no one seems to have constructed a suitable metaphor such that it can be communicated in a manner that results in a consensus, but that shouldn't prevent anyone from discussing it vociferously if the past 30 years of forum content are an indicator.

Few seem to be willing to make a 3D game that is a hardware pusher. Unless Iron Soldier 2 is as good as the Jag can do in terms of 3D. I'm not a programmer, and don't understand a lot of the programmer talking stuff, I need visual representation, outside of that, I am lost lol

[alucardX]

1 hour ago, KrunchyTC said:

Few seem to be willing to make a 3D game that is a hardware pusher. Unless Iron Soldier 2 is as good as the Jag can do in terms of 3D. I'm not a programmer, and don't understand a lot of the programmer talking stuff, I need visual representation, outside of that, I am lost lol

What are the metrics? There are a lot of software tricks that can be done if you balance your resource. Look at some of the things that Traveler's Tales did on the MegaDrive and Saturn.

[+CyranoJ]

2 hours ago, alucardX said:

Look at some of the things that Traveler's Tales did on the MegaDrive and Saturn.

 

Or better yet, look at the Jaguar Technical Reference Docs and try it yourself?

[ColecoGamer]

What’s the point of comparing the two? Both consoles are fantastic imho. The Neo-Geo and its arcade games and the Jaguar with its 3D titles and excellent homebrew releases. Both have (and do have) a place in my gaming room.

[alucardX]

27 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

 

Or better yet, look at the Jaguar Technical Reference Docs and try it yourself?

Touché

[KrunchyTC]

2 hours ago, alucardX said:

What are the metrics? There are a lot of software tricks that can be done if you balance your resource. Look at some of the things that Traveler's Tales did on the MegaDrive and Saturn.

Virtua Racing, or Virtua Fighter on the Jaguar at 60fps 480i  I'd be happy if the Jag could do that!

[alucardX]

1 minute ago, KrunchyTC said:

Virtua Racing, or Virtua Fighter on the Jaguar at 60fps 480i  I'd be happy if the Jag could do that!

So would I!

[KrunchyTC]

1 minute ago, alucardX said:

So would I!

But it's yet to be seen if it's even possible lol

[alucardX]

9 minutes ago, KrunchyTC said:

But it's yet to be seen if it's even possible lol

I think making fun games should be the first priority and after that pushing graphics. I would be happy with a Starfox / Panzer Dragoon like game.

[KrunchyTC]

5 minutes ago, alucardX said:

I think making fun games should be the first priority and after that pushing graphics. I would be happy with a Starfox / Panzer Dragoon like game.

Agreed. And to be honest, new games with super realistic graphics bore me to death. While I much prefer gameplay over graphics, when it comes to old hardware (especially Atari hardware), my curiosity about that hardware's true capabilities never rests 😆

Edited April 27 by KrunchyTC

[alucardX]

11 minutes ago, KrunchyTC said:

Agreed. And to be honest, new games with super realistic graphics bore me to death. While I much prefer gameplay over graphics, when it comes to old hardware (especially Atari hardware), my curiosity about that hardware's true capabilities never rests 😆

We should get programming then.