That Guy Who Lied About High Scores

[Robot2600]

I gotta say, after reading Todd Rogers's FB post and thinking about it a little... it's entirely possible all the scores were typos. He had 1000s of scores if I recall correctly. Here me out for a second using an analogy: typesetting manuscripts.

 

Most typesetters will only achieve about 85% accuracy with typesetting something manually. What does this mean? Just that it's hard for people to accurately copy data from one source to another. It's also harder to notice the discrepancies. Ever write a paper/email/whatever and proofread it 50 times only to have someone point out a typo in the first line? It happens. The human brain just can't see this stuff sometimes. Its leik the old iertent tihng in wichh lttres are mvoved arnoud and you can slitl raed it. Brain are funny, and fingers are fat. This is a deadly combination.

 

Now imagine when Twin Galaxies goes online: from paper to ascii-- that's thousands of characters that had to be transcribed 100% correctly. The refs were probably working late into the night, if not early into the morning. You see where I'm going with this.

 

Rogers had more scores than anyone, I'd almost be more surprised if there were no typos in his scores.

 

....All that said. I don't know all the details about this case, but I do think it's possible that all the mistakes have some explanation. Remember only like .1% of his scores seem to be in question, that's WELL, WELL below any estimate for typographical (or other types of) errors.

 

Plus the games to lie about just seem weird.... Barnstorming? Skiing? Why not Missile Command? Why not Asteroids? Why not Centipede?

 

Why even cheat when he had plenty of records? I don't really see the motive.

 

The activation prototype explanation makes perfect sense. Anyone who has ever made a game and balance things out know that you tweak the variables a billion times. He claims to have gotten the score at an expo, so it seems feasible. Why would he ever have known? Activision might not have even know, a single programmer could have tweaked a single thing and told nobody.

 

So, finally, I'm not going to blame Rogers, and I'm not going to even blame TG. Instead of claiming there scores were all 100% they should have been upfront. The kafkaesque NDAs are weird too. Almost everyone associated with TG seemed weird and sketchy as hell from the movies. They all seemed angry... not really sure what's going on with them.

 

***One more thing, TG does standardize mame scores using Wolfmame which supposedly has anti-cheat stuff built into it. I've personally submitted some scores for a few games and it was really fun to be able to sort of get into the competitive action over the internet. Most of the MAME scores are also from the digital age, so you don't have the "coffee stains" or double transcription problems of the old scores. There is none of the shady '80s nonsense, and I'd be willing to bet the MAME scores are more legit that the stuff from back in the day.

 

Not saying MAME = original hardware, just that MAME = MAME. Everyone has access to the same controller settings and you can use keyboard, mouse, controller, or w/e. You can't slow it down, you can't savestate, etc etc. If you don't have a controller, well too bad for you I guess. Every gamer should have a USB controller. Not every gamer should have to drive to New England or Florida to find a ref and have a high score.

 

 

[+Random Terrain]

Not every gamer should have to drive to New England or Florida to find a ref and have a high score.

 

Some people might compare it to the Olympics or something, though. There's probably some farm boy somewhere who could run faster or jump higher or do something better than the people we see on TV, but they don't have the chance or the desire to do it, so they don't get a medal. They could film themselves doing amazing things and send it in, but they will never get a medal that way. They have to actually show up and do the things that are necessary to compete with the big dogs.

[VectorGamer]

Not every gamer should have to drive to New England or Florida to find a ref and have a high score.

 

But now you have to have $ in order to have your score verified on TG's scoreboard.

[Zoyx]

Why not Missile Command? Why not Asteroids? Why not Centipede?

 

Because these games can be rolled. Generally when a gamer rolls a score on a game, they claim the game is conquered and quit playing.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

But now you have to have $ in order to have your score verified on TG's scoreboard.

Are people really that crazy about their scores that they pay for them being published at TG?

[VectorGamer]

Are people really that crazy about their scores that they pay for them being published at TG?

 

Apparently. I just saw a post on Facebook about someone having their high score verified.

 

I believe the only free score submissions are those performed live at events or TG sanctioned arcades. Otherwise for the console gamer you're going to have to pay to have your scores verified.

 

I had my Star Castle world record verified by Record Setter. For free. And nothing to mail in - just a link to my archived live stream.

[Gabriel]

 

Plus the games to lie about just seem weird.... Barnstorming? Skiing? Why not Missile Command? Why not Asteroids? Why not Centipede?

 

Why Barnstorming or Skiing? Why not Missile Command or Asteroids? It's precisely because Barnstorming and Skiing are more obscure.

 

I don't know if Todd Rogers lied about scores. It doesn't much matter to me whether he did or didn't. It doesn't affect my world. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit that when I've looked at TG scores in the past, the thing that stuck the most in my mind is how it's the same people over and over and sometimes the scores seem unreasonable. It doesn't mean the scores are falsely represented, but it certainly makes the TG scoreboard look like a bros-club with more than a bit of penis bravado going on.

 

Back to the scores. If false or incorrect high scores endured for 30 years, this is exactly the way a researcher would expect to see those false scores pop up. It's like evolution. Organisms are tested by their environment and the organisms best suited to their environment continue into the future. Organisms which are not suited to their environment die and don't show up in the future lineage.

 

The high scores are organisms existing in the environment of Twin Galaxies. Ideally, scores with solid evidence will be sustained in the database. Those with weak evidence will be challenged. Those that are outright lies should not stand. However, Twin Galaxies is not a uniform environment. The frequency of threats to a score will differ depending on the game. Popular games will face more regular threats. Less popular games will be viewed far less regularly. Obscure games may never have scores questioned at all. Popular game scores exist in an environment something akin to shark filled waters. Obscure games exist in an environment more similar to a rich suburb with private security.

 

After 30 years, you'd expect all the popular game scores to have solid evidential backing to survive constant challenges over time. The only game scores where you'd expect to see gross misrepresentations are lesser known titles with little competition. The surviving scores would be those which had withstood repeated challenge, therefore implying evidential backing, or a score would survive based on merely never being legitimately challenged or scrutinized.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

 

I had my Star Castle world record verified by Record Setter.

So how does our Star Castle Arcade for the 2600 compare to it? How far can you get there?

[VectorGamer]

So how does our Star Castle Arcade for the 2600 compare to it? How far can you get there?

 

The record I have is on the Vectrex. But, I'm also one of the top players on Star Castle arcade. To answer your question, I won't know until I have it plugged into the console using real controls. I've tested it in Stella but that's using a keyboard. I previously replied in the thread some suggestions as to make it more arcade perfect.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Yea, I remember. And now I know from what level your suggestions were coming.

[Zoyx]

There's http://www.highscore.com/. It's fun, even though the scores can't be taken too seriously.

[VectorGamer]

even though the scores can't be taken too seriously.

 

Then why bother? What's the point if the scores aren't taken seriously?

[Zoyx]

The scores are just as valid there as on any other high score system. But like any system, it can be gamed. Just like Twin Galaxies and Record Setter. It is more fun because of the social aspect.

 

Twin Galaxies tries to pass itself off as having the true high scores, even though it has very obvious flaws. Places like High Score and Record Setter are more honest and up-front about their flaws.

[bennybingo]

 

Then why bother? What's the point if the scores aren't taken seriously?

There's that point again!

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Why Barnstorming or Skiing? Why not Missile Command or Asteroids? It's precisely because Barnstorming and Skiing are more obscure.

 

I don't know if Todd Rogers lied about scores. It doesn't much matter to me whether he did or didn't. It doesn't affect my world. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit that when I've looked at TG scores in the past, the thing that stuck the most in my mind is how it's the same people over and over and sometimes the scores seem unreasonable. It doesn't mean the scores are falsely represented, but it certainly makes the TG scoreboard look like a bros-club with more than a bit of penis bravado going on.

 

Back to the scores. If false or incorrect high scores endured for 30 years, this is exactly the way a researcher would expect to see those false scores pop up. It's like evolution. Organisms are tested by their environment and the organisms best suited to their environment continue into the future. Organisms which are not suited to their environment die and don't show up in the future lineage.

 

The high scores are organisms existing in the environment of Twin Galaxies. Ideally, scores with solid evidence will be sustained in the database. Those with weak evidence will be challenged. Those that are outright lies should not stand. However, Twin Galaxies is not a uniform environment. The frequency of threats to a score will differ depending on the game. Popular games will face more regular threats. Less popular games will be viewed far less regularly. Obscure games may never have scores questioned at all. Popular game scores exist in an environment something akin to shark filled waters. Obscure games exist in an environment more similar to a rich suburb with private security.

 

After 30 years, you'd expect all the popular game scores to have solid evidential backing to survive constant challenges over time. The only game scores where you'd expect to see gross misrepresentations are lesser known titles with little competition. The surviving scores would be those which had withstood repeated challenge, therefore implying evidential backing, or a score would survive based on merely never being legitimately challenged or scrutinized.

High scores are not living beings. They don't grow, reproduce or mutate. A high score gets knocked down when it is beaten. Get knocked down enough times, and it falls off the list or "dies."

[Gabriel]

High scores are not living beings. They don't grow, reproduce or mutate. A high score gets knocked down when it is beaten. Get knocked down enough times, and it falls off the list or "dies."

 

You're taking it too literally. I wasn't saying that scores grow, reproduce, or mutate. I was saying that they face environmental pressures which they can either survive or succumb to. In other words, just what you reiterated with the important distinction that the legitimacy of a score can not only be beaten but also challenged for its authenticity.

[Zoyx]

Crystal castles - I believe the game ends at level 10, so his score is impossible - http://www.twingalaxies.com/scoreboard/crystal-castles/atari-2600-vcs/2297/

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Let me correct you: You believe the game ends at level 10, so you believe his score is impossible.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Thomas Jentzsch

[Tempest]

Let me correct you: You believe the game ends at level 10,

That should be easy enough to verify through disassembly right? i'm sort of curious about this myself (not because of the scoring thing, just pure curiosity).

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Sure, but I am not here to check or counter other people believes.

[Zoyx]

I stand corrected. I was thinking the arcade version, which has an ending. The 2600 version doesn't have an end. It repeats after 20 levels (80 castles) or something like that. This game does need a deconstruction to find out for sure. The info on the box is wrong.

[Robot2600]

So TG is now charging to submit scores, I thought it must be like a dollar or something small to help the website going. 2.50 at most. Those guys want 10 bucks a score... really? My pitfall cart costs me 25 cents and you want 4000% of the price of the game. This pretty much ruins the credibility of the site in general, as it's just another scam business. If the scores were mostly correct, and overall the entire thing was for fun or bragging rights to friends, then a few cheated scores don't bother me too much (they DO bother me some, but I seriously doubt someone is cheating my Altered Beast score, but I guess you never know). i guess I'm just a realist and would expect some amount of cheating to go on with something as big as TG.

 

However the 10 dollar fee per score is a huge barrier for me as a player. I'm not rich or poor, but I don't just throw away 10 bucks even if I could. I could buy games with that money, and unless I'm a world record player I would never consider it. I'm not going for 24 hour Star Wars runs or the Donkey Kong world record; I just wanna submit some scores and compete against players on games I love like Berzerk, Pitfall, Missile Command, etc. So what's the point of a #5 or #6 score when you know there is probably some poor bastard who couldn't afford to submit a score. Imagine Todd Rogers or someone with tons of records submitting 10 dollars a score for his stuff.... yea like someone would ever drop 10k on video game scores verified by a sketchy website ever again.

 

The documentaries (King of Kong, Chasing Ghosts) make a big point about how they are doing it for the love and to keep classic gaming alive. Well, now I guess they are doing for the cash.

 

Screw Twin Galaxies. I'd rather just post screenshots or youtube videos of my scores. Most gamers and my friends would know the scores are legit, and that's good enough for me.

 

I had a lot of fun in 2009-10 submitting some scores, but I guess those days are over. It really sucks because all the scores from the 80s are on TG. There were some other threads listing some other high score sites, and I might have to check those out.

 

It also hurts players that have already submitted scores. For example, I submitted a Missile Command MAME score a few years ago and now my mediocre score is gonna stand for all time even though I can beat the crap out of it now.

 

What a joke. 30 years of keeping classic gaming alive means jack shit if you ruin it for the future and sell the website to some corp.

 

The whole site sucks, I hope they go bankrupt.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Robot2600

[Andromeda Stardust]

$10, that's it? At $10, it costs more to order a pizza that to have a score submitted to TG. How many pizzas did you scarf down during your record attempts? Judging video footage of record attempts is a serious and time consuming business. Think of the long hours that the TG people have to work to screen gameplay videos. Anybody who watched King of Kong now knows about Twin Galaxies and they probably started getting overrun with submissions. TG probably got inundated by bogus and or crappy record attempts after the movie came out. Charging a nominal fee prevents people from submitting BS and wasting their time. If you fork over the ten dollars it means you are serious about your submission. Any true champ can look up the records and already knows where he/she will place before submitting a video.

 

I don't submit scores because I play mainly for fun and my scores are nothing to brag about. I might even be embarrassed to submit my scores since I'll probably be close to the bottom anyway. Twin Galaxies are in the business of record keeping, not creating an online database of millions of scores for a single game let alone thousands, where you can compare your ranks to your friends and brag about it on Facebook. There's plenty of modern console and PC games with online databases where you can compare scores.

[bennybingo]

I wonder what happens if you submit your $10 payment wrapped up in a hundred dollar bill?

[Seethransom]

I can understand a fee for submission. Someone spent some time watching them. Anyone can enter a score on a website, but it needs to be confirmed first. As far as reasonably, I don't know that amount. I've never beat anyone's records but my own (lately).

 

This brings me to a question, are there (in your opinions) an actual moral, and sane gaming club? A better place to flaunt your score?

 

Also, I have to believe that the whole TG record keeping was started out good. I mean, no one else was doing it. I applaud them for that. As yeas go by, the old adage about the road to Hell applies.