mbd30 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Wow that got a lot of attention, actually I just remembered the Vectrex had Japanese style controllers, so I guess they're off the hook.... How do people play most FPS games on the PC? They press the keyboard arrow keys with the fingers of their left hand while aiming and shooting with the mouse with their right. An Atari style joystick just wouldn't work. You can't blame the Japanese for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 You're right, I just hate joypads.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiv Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Wow that got a lot of attention, actually I just remembered the Vectrex had Japanese style controllers, so I guess they're off the hook....What kind of controller do you have on your Vec? Mine has a joystick... desiv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariLeaf Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Wow that got a lot of attention, actually I just remembered the Vectrex had Japanese style controllers, so I guess they're off the hook.... Sorry no offense meant with Japs, I love ém really. LOL no problem, just having a laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaximRecoil Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) What kind of controller do you have on your Vec? Mine has a joystick... desiv He considers "Japanese style" controllers to be ones with buttons on the right and a directional controller (be it a joystick or D-pad) on the left. Oddly enough, even though he apparently just realized that the Vectrex controller is like this, he still calls it "Japanese style". I've pointed out to him multiple times that this isn't "Japanese style" at all, it is simply "arcade style", but it doesn't seem to take. I suspect he's never played a game on an actual arcade machine in his life. Edited December 17, 2013 by MaximRecoil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Dart Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Problem solved. You're welcome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) He considers "Japanese style" controllers to be ones with buttons on the right and a directional controller (be it a joystick or D-pad) on the left. Oddly enough, even though he apparently just realized that the Vectrex controller is like this, he still calls it "Japanese style". I've pointed out to him multiple times that this isn't "Japanese style" at all, it is simply "arcade style", but it doesn't seem to take. I suspect he's never played a game on an actual arcade machine in his life. Never did, good guess. Edited December 17, 2013 by high voltage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbd30 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Never did, good guess. You're kidding, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassGuitari Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 (Note: "clever design" does NOT necessarily mean "works well" ) desiv On that, we can agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhomaios Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 You're kidding, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaximRecoil Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) Never did, good guess. Since you missed out on the real thing, I'll point out that arcade games were the leaders back then, and home console games were the followers. As an analogy, arcade games were the big budget theatrical releases, and console games were the direct-to-video or made-for-TV movies. The capabilities of arcade hardware during the classic era placed certain examples of it among the most powerful computer platforms available, not counting mainframes and "super computers". They were more powerful than any home computers of the day, and way more powerful than any consoles of the day. They contained about $1,000 worth of hardware, some of it off-the-shelf, some of it custom, but all of it arranged in a custom platform, and that is in the PCBs alone, which didn't have cost-increasing things like a housing, keyboard, various inputs/outputs or other things that "home computers" had. The 3-board-set for a Nintendo Punch-Out / Super Punch-Out for example is as big or bigger than an entire typical home computer of the day (including its keyboard), such as a Commodore 64. The point is: when you say the "Japanese-style" controllers (which aren't really "Japanese style" at all, as I've already mentioned) are "the wrong way around", you actually have things the wrong way around, ironically. Edited December 17, 2013 by MaximRecoil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sega_SHARK Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 This thread keeps on giving. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 This thread keeps on giving. Not sure I'd call it a gift though... but then you did leave that part out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 How do people play most FPS games on the PC? They press the keyboard arrow keys with the fingers of their left hand while aiming and shooting with the mouse with their right. An Atari style joystick just wouldn't work. You can't blame the Japanese for that. I am left handed you insensitive clod 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Joystick and Directional-Pad both have their ideal applications, just as sedan, hatchback, and pickup-truck do. In either case what (which game in the case of the videogame controller) are you trying to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Well, I've gotten used to the pad nowadays, there's no other way, but a decent joystick will always be missed, VCS, A8, C64, Amiga, PC, they all use joysticks, can't beat ém.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariLeaf Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 10 pages and still no firm decision? Come on guys, I wanna know whether to build an NES shrine or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Are the cursor keys in a PC numberpad a "Directional Pad?" Is a Maxi Pad with arrows drawn on it a "Directional Pad?" Or are we done with the semantics? Yes. I don't think so, as I don't think of separate keys as a PAD... Not sure what the "Maxi Pad" is. This: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaximRecoil Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) Well, I've gotten used to the pad nowadays, there's no other way, but a decent joystick will always be missed, VCS, A8, C64, Amiga, PC, they all use joysticks, can't beat ém.... No console or home computer ever came with a "decent joystick", aside from the Neo Geo AES. They were all crap in comparison to arcade joysticks from American companies such as Happ, Wico, Bally/Midway, and Japanese companies such as SNK, Seimitsu, Sanwa, and Nintendo. Though I've never tried one, I assume the aftermarket Wico Command Control joystick for the Atari 2600 and other systems was good, as I believe it was built like their arcade joysticks. On the other hand, the NES Advantage was crap; it was not even remotely built like Nintendo's nor any other company's arcade joysticks (Nintendo's actual arcade joysticks were probably the toughest joysticks ever made). As far as I'm concerned though, simply having an arcade-quality joystick isn't good enough; it also needs to be mounted on a stable surface, as on an arcade machine's control panel. Using a joystick's lever inherently impart significant leverage to whatever it is mounted to, which makes the classic handheld joysticks like the Atari CX-40 or Wico Command Control less than ideal. The ones that mount to a large base that is intended to be placed on a table, like the NES Advantage or Neo Geo AES controller are better, but still not ideal. The gamepad is ideal for handheld controllers, as both of your hands support the base, and using the D-pad imparts no leverage against the base. A good arcade joystick mounted to an arcade machine's control panel is the ultimate type of videogame controller in my opinion, but for handheld controllers, I'd rather have a good gamepad than a joystick. Edited December 18, 2013 by MaximRecoil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 No console or home computer ever came with a "decent joystick", aside from the Neo Geo AES. They were all crap in comparison to arcade joysticks from American companies such as Happ, Wico, Bally/Midway, and Japanese companies such as SNK, Seimitsu, and Nintendo. Though I've never tried one, I assume the aftermarket Wico Command Control joystick for the Atari 2600 and other systems was good, as I believe it was built like their arcade joysticks. On the other hand, the NES Advantage was crap; it was not even remotely built like Nintendo's nor any other company's arcade joysticks (Nintendo's actual arcade joysticks were probably the toughest joysticks ever made). As far as I'm concerned though, simply having an arcade-quality joystick isn't good enough; it also needs to be mounted on a stable surface, as on an arcade machine's control panel. Using a joystick's lever inherently impart significant leverage to whatever it is mounted to, which makes the classic handheld joysticks like the Atari CX-40 or Wico Command Control less than ideal. The ones that mount to a large base that is intended to be placed on a table, like the NES Advantage or Neo Geo AES controller are better, but still not ideal. The gamepad is ideal for handheld controllers, as both of your hands support the base, and using the D-pad imparts no leverage against the base. A good arcade joystick mounted to an arcade machine's control panel is the ultimate type of videogame controller in my opinion, but for handheld controllers, I'd rather have a good gamepad than a joystick. That's exactly why I built my own: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30203515@N04/sets/72157629736738048/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/30203515@N04/sets/72157634800361528/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaximRecoil Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) That's exactly why I built my own: Nice. It looks like you are using a Happ Super for the Atari controller? If so, that's a good choice, though I like Happ Competitions a bit better (those are what I have in my Street Fighter II arcade machine). Is the joystick in the NES controller a Nintendo arcade joystick? If not, it looks like one (short, small black balltop). I love Nintendo arcade joysticks for the arcade games they originally came with (most notably the 4-way-restricted ones in Punch-Out / Super Punch-Out for me, as those are my two all-time favorite arcade games and I own a Super Punch-Out machine), but I don't know if I'd like them for general purpose gaming with that 8-way notched restrictor they used. Those were used on PlayChoice-10 and Vs. Unisystem machines, but the only one of those with an 8-way Nintendo joystick I really played much of in the arcade was Vs. Excitebike, and that wasn't a game which was very demanding of the joystick (in fact, a 4-way joystick is all you actually need for that game). What kind of joystick is in your SNES controller? It looks like a Wico or a Happ Super with a replacement Wico-style shaft/balltop, though it could be most anything. Edited December 18, 2013 by MaximRecoil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karokoenig Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Off Topic. Finally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) Nice. It looks like you are using a Happ Super for the Atari controller? If so, that's a good choice, though I like Happ Competitions a bit better (those are what I have in my Street Fighter II arcade machine). Is the joystick in the NES controller a Nintendo arcade joystick? If not, it looks like one (short, small black balltop). I love Nintendo arcade joysticks for the arcade games they originally came with (most notably the 4-way-restricted ones in Punch-Out / Super Punch-Out for me, as those are my two all-time favorite arcade games and I own a Super Punch-Out machine), but I don't know if I'd like them for general purpose gaming with that 8-way notched restrictor they used. Those were used on PlayChoice-10 and Vs. Unisystem machines, but the only one of those with an 8-way Nintendo joystick I really played much of in the arcade was Vs. Excitebike, and that wasn't a game which was very demanding of the joystick (in fact, a 4-way joystick is all you actually need for that game). What kind of joystick is in your SNES controller? It looks like a Wico or a Happ Super with a replacement Wico-style shaft/balltop, though it could be most anything. The NES and Atari are both Ultimarc Mag-Stiks. It uses a magnet instead of a spring for the return. The NES controller uses the Magstik ball top. They Mags were the only sticks I could find that can switch between 4-way and 8-way without opening the cabinet. Very useful for playing arcade ports. Only caveat is the Magstik's baffle is a bit too squarish in 8-way operation and it also has a very short throw, making it very easy to accidentally hit diagonals. The SNES joystick uses an 8-way Happ competition with an aftermarket candy ball-top. Check out the image gallery. The NES controller has a digital turbo circuit that I designed myself, the SNES has buttons that light up when you press them, and I added paddle pots to the Atari joystick. There are photos of the before and after. Both controllers use aftermarket extension cables and no vintage hardware was harmed while making them. My next project will be the Genesis. Edited December 18, 2013 by stardust4ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serguei2 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) 10 pages and still no firm decision? Come on guys, I wanna know whether to build an NES shrine or not. Well. Based on the result of the poll. Nintendo didn't saving gaming. It would mean if Nintendo didn't release NES, we would stuck with 2600, Intellivision and ColecoVision. Or maybe we would buy a computer if we want to play games. Edited December 18, 2013 by Serguei2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaximRecoil Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) The NES and Atari are both Ultimarc Mag-Stiks. It uses a magnet instead of a spring for the return. The NES controller uses the Magstik ball top. They Mags were the only sticks I could find that can switch between 4-way and 8-way without opening the cabinet. Very useful for playing arcade ports. Only caveat is the Magstik's baffle is a bit too squarish in 8-way operation and it also has a very short throw, making it very easy to accidentally hit diagonals. The SNES joystick uses an 8-way Happ competition with an aftermarket candy ball-top. Yeah, the standard bat-top Mag-Stik looks identical to a Happ Super from the top. I was thinking about buying one of their old T-Stiks (which used a conventional spring, but still had the lift-and-rotate function to switch between 4-way and 8-way) back before they changed to the Mag-Stik several years ago, but I never got around to it. I heard they were quite stiff though. I wish they would just make a version with a normal spring of normal stiffness with a normal throw-length, i.e., exactly like a Happ Super or Competition, but with the ability to change from 4-way to 8-way on the fly. If they made such a thing I would buy a pair of them to make a dual joystick controller for certain arcade games in MAME; I'd have them in 8-way mode for e.g. Robotron, and 4-way mode for e.g. Karate Champ. Edited December 18, 2013 by MaximRecoil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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