ColecoVision Flashback System

[Flojomojo]

Where was this "advertised?" Show me a press release or a page on the manufacturer's website. Pre-release box art from TRU doesn't count. Nothing was offered so nothing could have been removed.

 

Why would a casual buyer need overlays for games that don't really need them?

 

And why would an enthusiast get all worked up when a fun toy doesn't meet his or her high standards? It's like wailing about the low quality of Happy Meal toys.

[Troy_Whelan]

Where was this "advertised?" Show me a press release or a page on the manufacturer's website. Pre-release box art from TRU doesn't count. Nothing was offered so nothing could have been removed.

 

Why would a casual buyer need overlays for games that don't really need them?

 

And why would an enthusiast get all worked up when a fun toy doesn't meet his or her high standards? It's like wailing about the low quality of Happy Meal toys.

LOL, you don't consider the ad on the TRU website as an advertisement? They are advertising products for sale. There are people discussing this on multiple sites and multiple blogs. Information from the inside is being shared both to help stir up interest and to determine appeal to consumers. I understand that the final product is changing based on input from multiple sources, and we are simply trying to influence that change.

 

This is the Intellivision Flashback being advertised http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=35290526&prodFindSrc=search&cp=

 

This is the ColecoVision Flashback being advertised http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=35350896&prodFindSrc=search&cp=

 

I don't think enthusiasts are all worked up as you put it, just disappointed in the final product as it currently stands. It would have been a cool purchase, now it is simply mildly interesting. If you buy it and enjoy it, then good for you. Not sure why you are talking more about the people who are no longer interested when we are simply talking about the product. As I said above, people on this site and many other sites are discussing this and AtGames is listening. Hopefully the comments from "the enthusiasts" will help encourage a better product and then I will buy one. You seem content with whatever is delivered so you should be happy regardless.

[Troy_Whelan]

And by the way, here are the press releases:

 

http://www.retrogamenetwork.com/2014/05/02/atgames-brings-more-video-game-classics-back-to-the-living-room-with-their-upcoming-intellivision-flashback-plug-and-play-console/

 

http://www.retrogamenetwork.com/2014/05/03/atgames-to-expand-flashback-series-even-further-with-announced-colecovision-flashback/

 

Both talk about access to "the deep library" of games.

[NIAD]

"If your going to do something, do it right the first time.", as the old saying goes. Three variations says a mouthful to me.

 

I hope the CVF sales are good and people get a lot of enjoyment out of it, but as of right now, I don't think I will be buying one. We'll see in a couple months.

[phattyboombatty]

And by the way, here are the press releases:

 

http://www.retrogamenetwork.com/2014/05/02/atgames-brings-more-video-game-classics-back-to-the-living-room-with-their-upcoming-intellivision-flashback-plug-and-play-console/

 

http://www.retrogamenetwork.com/2014/05/03/atgames-to-expand-flashback-series-even-further-with-announced-colecovision-flashback/

 

Both talk about access to "the deep library" of games.

 

You mean, no one knew about the press release here from October 2013?

 

EDIT: Just found this helpful link that may give a clue as to some of the included games. I know what Bill said about certain parties' games not being included, but this is some surprising info about who owns what rights.

Edited July 7, 2014 by phattyboombatty

[cimerians]

"Top Tier products". According to them its not a happy meal. That its a porterhouse steak at Morten's eh?

 

I want what they are smoking.

 

Monetizing the property by Riverwest Brands. Sounds like making a quick buck to me. Kind of glad I canceled now. Makes me feel better.

 

As far as supporting retro....I feel better giving money to people that care like Eduardo and the many other homebrewer's out there, they are the one's that keep it alive as well as bring new people in by hosting websites and twitter pages etc.

 

Not these guys. I couldn't find one link, a contact, a twitter page or anything to provide some feedback.

 

Also, you dont need this on retail shelves to pull new people in. If anyone is even slightly interested in Retro games they can google it on the internet and get into it. Without giving them any money.

 

Unless Bill or someone can convince me personally and honestly that there are people over there that honestly care I can't really believe it. It sure doesn't look that way to me.

[+LS650]

People bitching and moaning about certain games not being on a $40 flashback console with 60 built-in games that looks like a small version of the original console and most likely will have perfect/near-perfect emulation.

I think the problem is that Ladybug and Mousetrap are, as mentioned, iconic for the Coleco. It would be like putting out an Atari Flashback without including Asteroids, Missile Command, or Centipede. If you don't include the most popular games, why bother?

[TrekkiELO]

 

You mean, no one knew about the press release here from October 2013?

 

EDIT: Just found this helpful link that may give a clue as to some of the included games. I know what Bill said about certain parties' games not being included, but this is some surprising info about who owns what rights.

 

Interesting and fascinating that one of the confirmed games "Venture" is not on Coleco Holdings' trademark list!

Edited July 7, 2014 by TrekkiELO

[Andromeda Stardust]

Man, people are getting super upset over this for no good reason. Nothing is set in stone at this point until we get the master game list. I'm still interested in the Coleco Flashback but I need a bit more info about versions and final pricing and included games. Either way, I'm fairly convinced at this point I do want to get one. No Mouse Trap is a bummber but what the hey. You collector guys belly-aching about included games, not included overlays, or controller compatability are 1% of the projected market. Y'all go back to hoarding your multiple consoles and vintage game stock and play whatever you want. Nothing to see here. As for me, the CV Flashback will stand as a nice little sampler for someone who isn't quite sure he wants to risk the space and money on yet another vintage console. I've got too many as is.

[Pixelboy]

They are already producing more than one version which is clearly being done for profit trying to get customers to buy multiple versions with subtle differences between each version.

Well, you have to look at it from AtGames' point of view. Profit-wise, the CV Flashback is a gamble any way you look at it, and they are looking to have as many units distributed and sold in the US as possible. We can assume that AtGames approached several american retailers with the device, and some were unsure about it (since it will be sold at Toys'R'Us and probably Wal-Mart too) until AtGames put the idea of an exclusive version of the Flashback "just for them" on the table. That was the incentive that made Dollar General and Sam's Club jump on the Flashback bandwagon.

 

How many ColecoVision fans/collectors are going to want to buy all three versions just for bragging rights? Not many, so that aspect of it is negligible and there's no reason for AtGames to worry about that. It's all about reaching the widest distribution possible. After all, all three variations will feature the same plastic enclosure, the same controllers, and the internal electronics will also be the same, aside from having a different set of games burned on a chip. Only the box will be slightly different, along with the contents of the manual unless Bill gets lazy about it.

 

 

They would be better off simply providing a better version with all they can offer rather than multiple versions that separate what they have. I was very excited and had pre-ordered 3 CV sets and 3 INTV sets, now I have cancelled all pre-orders.

People should never pre-order that kind of product while it's still in development, until the final list of features has been released. And your reaction proves that it wasn't a good idea on Bill's part to reveal the existence of the three variations of the CV Flashback. I'm sure Bill wishes he had never mentioned it... eh Bill?

 

 

I would gladly pay more for a "Gold Version" with all overlays and more games. They could also have a "Silver Version" with perhaps all games but not all overlays, and also have the current version as the "Bronze Version" without all games or overlays. Maybe a "Platinum Version" which was the Gold Version plus removable controllers. These would be better options than what they are offering. Right now the choice is multiple Bronze Versions (seems like 3) to get all they offer. So you end up spending $120 for the 3 consoles, which is simply not worth it to me.

It's not worth it for anyone, I think. However, you have to look at the bigger picture here. Showing support for the CV Flashback is the only way we'll ever see the CV Flashback 2. So Lady Bug and Mouse Trap are not included? Has it crossed your mind that AtGames may simply be keeping those cards hidden under their sleeves for the future?

 

Personally, I think the CV Flashback 2 should simply have a cartridge port, but we all know that's not going to happen. The best we can hope for is a SD card slot tucked away on the motherboard, and ColecoVision "connoisseurs" would have to unscrew the console casing to place their own SD card filled with their favorite ROMs. Having the SD card slot fully accessible without having to unscrew the casing would be ideal, but personally, I wouldn't mind having to work a little to be able to play other games like DK and Smurf, and guys like Bill could playtest the CVF2 with all those other ROMs to make sure the onboard emulator plays them correctly before the new unit is released in stores.

 

All this to say that we shouldn't whine too much about what's missing in the CV Flashback #1, especially considering that we CV fans already have original ColecoVisions in our homes. It's a toy for the casual masses, not an outlet for fan service. Let's just do our part to help convince AtGames to keep going. I think collectors will purchase all three variations if the outer cardboard boxes are visibly different from one another, but in the end, those people will only hook up and play one of the console variations in their living room or bedroom. If you're only going to buy one variation of the CV Flashback, shop around to make sure you buy the one with Antarctic Adventure if you really want that game, otherwise just purchase any one of the variations just to show support for AtGames' endeavor.

 

We have to remind ourselves that business is business, the CV Flashback is a gamble, and AtGames is a pretty cool company to invest that much money and effort into it.

[Flojomojo]

I think the problem is that Ladybug and Mousetrap are, as mentioned, iconic for the Coleco. It would be like putting out an Atari Flashback without including Asteroids, Missile Command, or Centipede. If you don't include the most popular games, why bother?

It would be like putting out an Atari Flashback without Pac-Man, Defender, and Berzerk! Oh wait, they did that ... five times in virtual hardware, and many more software compilations. Coleco simply doesn't have the same catalog of in-house games as Atari or Intellivision, so they need to pay for licensing other people's games. That's a big reason the Colecovision Kickstarter asked for so much money (and failed to get it).

 

I still haven't seen anyplace "official" promising controller overlays for all games, just the TRU box mockup that said there would be some "limited edition" overlays included. The links people posted simply point back to the TRU sales site and speculate on what might come next. As far as I can tell, AtGames hasn't promised anything specific. Bill L has kindly answered a TON of questions here, in his capacity as an interested fan, way above and beyond and very nice of him to do that.

 

Most of the English-speaking sales team of AtGames is on LinkedIn. I would think they'd be open to constructive feedback (i.e., not whining or flaming). I get the sense that this is not a project with a huge budget.

[Pixelboy]

I get the sense that this is not a project with a huge budget.

It depends what you mean by "huge", but producing custom hardware with ASIC chips (along with a custom console casing and custom controllers) is extremely expensive, so it requires a large investment, so most of the budget is bound to go into hardware development and manufacturing. Packaging and marketing make up a small percentage of the total budget, I'm sure.

[Flojomojo]

I honestly don't know what a "large investment" would be to fab this stuff and would be curious to learn the ballpark figures involved if anyone knows, keeping in mind that AtGames is based in Taiwan.

 

Licensing IP would cut into any profits too, of course.

[Bill Loguidice]

AtGames was going to include a complete set of overlays, for both CV and INTV sets, which was then greatly reduced. They advertised, we wanted, they removed. Your analogy does not work as we are not looking for anything other than what they can provide. A more accurate analogy would be we went to Burger King after watching an advertisement, yet when we got there all they had was Kids Meals for the same price as the advertised adult combo meal.

 

All of this is a something of a Catch-22, double-edged sword, or whatever other analogy or comparison you'd like to make. First off, Toys R Us put the package designs up before they were ready, which leaked some of the info. Second off, AtGames should be given some credit for being so open about their process. Normally, not a word would be leaked before everything was 100% locked down. AtGames had genuine goals and targets that had to be pulled back for whatever reason(s) (most already discussed). Under normal circumstances, you wouldn't have found what the final product consisted of until reviewers got their units, at best a month or two before retail release. I've been in a fortunate position to have advised on some of the product development and still being far enough removed from the process to help reduce some of the misinformation out there, acting as both a fan and an unofficial/offical company spokesperson (sometimes straddling that line uncomfortably). Unfortunately, that has also worked against everyone in that I was clearly able to reveal things or clarify things that have since had to be changed. At the same time, when they were changed, I immediately made everyone aware, so again, that whole yin-yang thing. Things happen, and it's not like everyone hasn't had sufficient notice to change their plans, especially since we're still three months from release. I thought it was important to reveal that info and to AtGames' credit, they've wanted everyone in this community to be informed.

Bottom line, I'm doing what I'm doing on here for a variety of reasons. One of those reasons is to help keep the hardest core fans informed and to help manage expectations and reduce misinformation. I know I would love to have been informed about the process for many other products like this in a similar manner, but again, it usually doesn't happen. This is all for US. It's clear the general public's first exposure will be when stumbling upon the product at retail. They won't know any of the "process," they'll just know what they see on the box and make their decision then, with none of the same considerations we in the community have. Again, I'd never say don't be critical, but since we have this unique situation, let's at least give a little benefit of the doubt to AtGames here. I can tell you these are good people who care about the product, but they are still a business and have to turn a profit (make sound business decisions) to keep doing what they're doing. Since we have unique insight into this, we don't necessarily have to take them to task over every change or how they approach retail. I hope that makes sense.

[Bill Loguidice]

I honestly don't know what a "large investment" would be to fab this stuff and would be curious to learn the ballpark figures involved if anyone knows, keeping in mind that AtGames is based in Taiwan.

 

Licensing IP would cut into any profits too, of course.

 

They're actually out of California (the HQ), with various satellite offices elsewhere, including Asia. I'm not sure how the Taiwan office they have listed fits into everything. At least the California thing is how I understand it, since that's where the primary executives are out of.

[Troy_Whelan]

I had drafted a lenghty response to some of the above posts, but realized it does not matter. We are debating what should have been done instead of discussing what can be done next.

 

First, I think it was a good idea on Bill's part to share the information. If he had not and we learned of this on release day, then many of us would have returned the units. To me this would have been even worse for AtGames as they would have produced many more units based on perceived demand only to have units returned and now have many unsold units. With the information known upfront they can produce units based on realistic demand. Kudos to Bill.

 

At this point, if possible, I think the best thing AtGames can do to support sellers, customers, and themselves is:

• Sell the 3 different console variations as planned for $40
• Include a mail-in offer to upgrade your console with games and overlays only included in V2 for $5 and to upgrade your console with games and overlays only included in V3 for another $5.
• This mail-in offer would send you a code to unlock the games and also include the overlays.
• To prevent people from sharing the code and not paying for it, you would have to include your console serial number on the mail-in offer and they would provide you with a unique code in response. This could be easily achieved with an algorythm such that they do not have to maintain a database of codes.
• This way everyone will be happy in that there are unique consoles per distribution point as they already have in place, but the capability exists to get one complete console if desired for a total of $50.

That seems reasonable to me and I would fully support that.

[+LS650]

It would be like putting out an Atari Flashback without Pac-Man, Defender, and Berzerk! Oh wait, they did that ... five times in virtual hardware, and many more software compilations.

 

Yes, exactly my point. I have an FB2 and an FB4... but they spend their time sitting in storage instead of being played because they left out some games that I consider to be vital in any 2600 collection. Sure, I get that they couldn't get licencing in place - but that doesn't change anything.

 

Yep, I completly understand that there may be good legal or financial reasons not to include certain highly-desired ROMs on these new Flashbacks - but that doesn't make me happy about it.

Edited July 7, 2014 by ls650

[gamecat80]

 

Why shouldn't we want to "Have it YOUR WAY"?

 

So yes, we should have it our way as that is what was offered and what we wanted.

 

 

 

Sure, I get that they couldn't get licencing in place - but that doesn't change anything.

 

Yep, I completly understand that there may be good legal or financial reasons not to include certain highly-desired ROMs on these new Flashbacks - but that doesn't make me happy about it.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzr12gBrXA8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzr12gBrXA8

[iesposta]

... sound business decisions ... ?!

The Atari Flashback has been here since 2004 — 10 years! We are now on Atari Flashback 5.

 

I had a Colecovision when they first came out. Donkey Kong, Pepper II, Mouse Trap, Venture and Ladybug is what I and other nostalgia people will remember.

Probably the most play of those listed was Ladybug. Also back in the day I never saw an Arcade Ladybug or an Arcade Mouse Trap.

 

A few seemingly simple things "done right" could have made this a huge sellout.

Now it is just meh.

[Bill Loguidice]

... sound business decisions ... ?!

The Atari Flashback has been here since 2004 — 10 years! We are now on Atari Flashback 5.

 

I had a Colecovision when they first came out. Donkey Kong, Pepper II, Mouse Trap, Venture and Ladybug is what I and other nostalgia people will remember.

Probably the most play of those listed was Ladybug. Also back in the day I never saw an Arcade Ladybug or an Arcade Mouse Trap.

 

A few seemingly simple things "done right" could have made this a huge sellout.

Now it is just meh.

 

Just to play devil's advocate here, what to your mind would be the minimum number of must-have titles to make it worthwhile for the average consumer to plunk down $40 plus tax on this? Is it three? Is it five? Is it 10? Of that number, how much overlap is there from person-to-person for must-have titles? One or two? More? I bet it's going to vary wildly and dramatically, so it's difficult to pin down what is truly a must-have title and what's merely a nice-to-have.

 

Can we also assume that the target audience has not kept up with the ColecoVision scene (and likely doesn't bother with emulation) and may not have had access to most of the ColecoVision library back in the day? Could then many of these 60 titles - even if say only two or three are truly recognizable to that person - be fun discoveries for them? It's one thing going in KNOWING what you like, it's another coming out of it LEARNING about NEW games that you didn't even know existed and that are suddenly favorites. On one level, the fact that there are a decent number of homebrew games on there might at least make more people aware of the modern day scene/community. Even those who are into videogames are often surprised that new games are made for "old" systems.

 

Look, I get where you and others are coming from. I really do. Having cross-compatible controllers and a full set of overlays (which really are just collectibles since there's no practical use for them other than the ones that are included) made these casual devices suddenly appealing to our small community. It really is irrelevant to the masses, though. Until we as a community can really speak with our dollars, this is going to continue to happen.

 

By the way, I'm still waiting for final word on the ColecoVision controllers being cross-compatible still, i.e, the same issue might not affect it after all. There's still hope.

[+Gemintronic]

Well, there is the opinion that we are too entitled. I say our energy may be misdirected. We need to seek, support and promote projects that do reflect our needs. Usually that comes from within the community. Just look at jaybird3rd and his Aquarius RAM expansion and multi-carts. You can get what you want. It's not going to come from Dollar General or Walmart, though.

[cimerians]

As much as we argue it's nice to see people so passionate about the Colecovision though. Just goes to show what a cool machine this was to have in 1983.

[Bill Loguidice]

Well, there is the opinion that we are too entitled. I say our energy may be misdirected. We need to seek, support and promote projects that do reflect our needs. Usually that comes from within the community. Just look at jaybird3rd and his Aquarius RAM expansion and multi-carts. You can get what you want. It's not going to come from Dollar General or Walmart, though.

 

Absolutely, but even with those products it's important to understand the compromises that need to be made and how sometimes intermediary steps are necessary. To be clear, in the editorial I'm not saying that we are too entitled/critical/etc., in general (the collective we), I'm saying that SOME in the community are, and they're often the most vocal and what causes a sort of echo chamber for problems that aren't necessarily as pressing as they're made out to be (which is true of most critical things--we more readily post about negative experiences than positive ones and it can make relatively small problems/issues seem like a major crisis). Certain segments of our community are too quick to bash and bad mouth new products, which is not conducive to getting more of the products that we actually want. The basic point was nothing is going to be perfect and that there are more constructive ways of expressing our personal preferences, particularly when certain products are most of the way there. I'd rather see a product with some compromises get released (like the RetroN 5) than have something otherwise really damned cool never make it to market because it's missing that last 5 - 10% that would make it perfect for 98% of the people in our community (keeping in mind that even if a perfect product were made, some people would still find something to complain about).

[iesposta]

"Just to play devil's advocate here, what to your mind would be the minimum number of must-have titles to make it worthwhile for the average consumer to plunk down $40 plus tax on this?"

 

It is not about minimum number. It's about nostalgia.

You ask someone who had a Colecovision when they came out and have them list their most remembered games.

These most remembered games will sell the impulse buyer.

Apart from Donkey Kong as the most remembered because that was a pack in, to leave out Mouse Trap and Lady Bug when they are two very remembered games is "bad business decision" on many levels.

I probably had about 12 carts total back then, and used Expansion Module #1 to play 2600 and Supercharger games.

I remember Donkey Kong, Lady Bug, Zaxxon, Pepper II, Venture, Squish-em, Cosmic Avenger, Q*Bert, Time Pilot, Space Fury, Carnival

[Bill Loguidice]

"Just to play devil's advocate here, what to your mind would be the minimum number of must-have titles to make it worthwhile for the average consumer to plunk down $40 plus tax on this?"

 

It is not about minimum number. It's about nostalgia.

You ask someone who had a Colecovision when they came out and have them list their most remembered games.

These most remembered games will sell the impulse buyer.

Apart from Donkey Kong as the most remembered because that was a pack in, to leave out Mouse Trap and Lady Bug when they are two very remembered games is "bad business decision" on many levels.

I probably had about 12 carts total back then, and used Expansion Module #1 to play 2600 and Supercharger games.

I remember Donkey Kong, Lady Bug, Zaxxon, Pepper II, Venture, Squish-em, Cosmic Avenger, Q*Bert, Time Pilot, Space Fury, Carnival

 

And six of those 11 games in bold are on there. So if more than half of the games you specifically remember are on there, along with an additional 54 (or 55) games, how exactly is that a "bad business decision." For the vast majority of people, there will be games they remember on there, as well as new discoveries to be made. There can't be a perfect, all encompasing list, unless you set up the emulation environment and track down the ROMs yourself. There's nothing stopping that either.