Jinks Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Well there's DK XM and Beef Drop VE which have already been developed and released, and will technically run with or without the XM, but only with TIA sound in the case of Beef Drop and no audio in the case of DK. But those exact ROMs could just be planted on a CPUWIZ board with a donor Pokey or Hokey chip, and work without the giant 32X-ish tumor growing out of the 7800. I have his two released AA 7800 homebrews which are nice but nothing to write home about. Ashame he left the project. If I was leaving a project, I would relinquish all documentation and code I had worked on to the guys currently running it. That said, I don't think the BIOS is the only thing holding the 7800XM back. Curt for one has not been fulfilling orders from his website or responding to PMs and has had health issues and other delays. The whole thing stinks at this point and I would question the usefulness of developing a homebrew 32X style addon hardware for an old game console that never really penetrated the market. 7800XM would only become a niche device for a niche console, and with homebrews being developed exclusively for the XM, will fragment the market. Homebrew games cater to collectors/owners of the original hardware, but the XM, if released, will always have a much smaller install base compared to the stock hardware. Why artificially limit the audience of your homebrew game, when Hokeys or extra RAM can be included inside the cart for a few dollars extra, and released without the need for the ginormous XM add-on? That only leaves the Yamaha and high score cart remaining that can't be handled by existing in cart hardware. Do we really need the Yamaha sound for an 8-bit console? Sounds like overkill to me. And a HSC replacement (lock on PCB in a sawed off cart shell is all you need) would probably have been released by now if not for waiting for this possibly vaporware 7800XM. One thing I can say however, is the 7800XM has gone through working prototypes, which is more than the Chameleon ever had. I really wish this thread was for XM updates and not over half a decade of discussing the XMs usefulness etc. If you want the pros and cons dig up 6 years of about 6 different threads and there is about 60 or so pages of that... 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Oh I must add thanks for the update! I have your dk pk and dk xm games and anyone that knows anything knows you will be able to finish the Xm. And I am sorry to hear GB would not help at all. Not surprised tho. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I really wish this thread was for XM updates and not over half a decade of discussing the XMs usefulness etc. If you want the pros and cons dig up 6 years of about 6 different threads and there is about 60 or so pages of that... I'm out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I really wish this thread was for XM updates and not over half a decade of discussing the XMs usefulness etc. If you want the pros and cons dig up 6 years of about 6 different threads and there is about 60 or so pages of that... That would be glorious. That people kept it to XM updates ... and that we got regular XM updates. I have no doubt that a lot of work was done on this throughout the years ... just wish we heard about it more often. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lendorien Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) The funny thing is this frustration that is getting people uncomfortable, is something that was completely avoidable. Even if it took 5+ years, regular honest communication would have done wonders for people's attitudes about it. I don't think that it is too much for people to expect regular updates for a something they paid for or for them to be frustrated at the lack of them. The frustration has been earned. It may be annoying, but it is what it is. And with that said, we should thank Tep for being open and willing to provide updates on his part of the project at the pace he has. It's a nice change and appreciated. I mean that sincerely. Edited March 16, 2016 by Lendorien 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodyshots Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I concede - throwing in the towel - giving up 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I concede - throwing in the towel - giving up Ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I'm out... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+swlovinist Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 (edited) I also want to add that some recent updates are nice, but long overdue. No need for anyone to get all bent out of shape about it. Edited March 17, 2016 by swlovinist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Agreed... I still want this thing to be released. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 The funny thing is this frustration that is getting people uncomfortable, is something that was completely avoidable. Even if it took 5+ years, regular honest communication would have done wonders for people's attitudes about it. Some people for sure. Some people have been jackasses about the thing from the moment it was announced and wouldn't let it go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lendorien Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Some people for sure. Some people have been jackasses about the thing from the moment it was announced and wouldn't let it go. I don't disagree. The crap at the beginning wasn't fair, nor is the stuff about whether the XM is worth it. If you don't see a value, don't buy it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Tep should have the time to do as he pleases and not held responsible for the delays when he was not part of the team. Regarding the value of the XM I am not sure if the thing comes out 10Y from now if people would think the same way but to each his own. I venture that until there's the "hope" that it's gonna come out in the next 6 months or so at worse then it's hard to let it go. Joke aside, if there was a clear announcement to not expect anything out for another say 3Y, I am not sure how many people would stick to it. Then again it appears some have stuck to it for 5Y already so what do I know, but a little devil inside me is saying that if 5Y ago (or whenever it began) it was announced that the project would take say 6Y to complete then many would not have been onboard (put down money for a 6Y venture is not something many people just do). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletunes Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 (I'm trying to walk on eggshells here.) I saw value and so I bought it. Three years later, I no longer saw value, but I was unable to un-buy it. I eventually sold my share (at a loss) to someone, and I am content with that. I don't have a dog in this fight anymore. I'm just saying "If you don't want it don't buy it" doesn't really apply to the people who invested 5 plus years ago. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lendorien Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 (edited) Tep should have the time to do as he pleases and not held responsible for the delays when he was not part of the team. Regarding the value of the XM I am not sure if the thing comes out 10Y from now if people would think the same way but to each his own. I venture that until there's the "hope" that it's gonna come out in the next 6 months or so at worse then it's hard to let it go. Joke aside, if there was a clear announcement to not expect anything out for another say 3Y, I am not sure how many people would stick to it. Then again it appears some have stuck to it for 5Y already so what do I know, but a little devil inside me is saying that if 5Y ago (or whenever it began) it was announced that the project would take say 6Y to complete then many would not have been onboard (put down money for a 6Y venture is not something many people just do). I agree on Tep. He's awesome for being willing to jump in and pick up the pieces of the Bios like he has. It can't be easy, especially since it sounds like he has to reinvent the wheel. He's a Rockstar in my book! As far as the time, as I have said, it could have been avoided. I think that communication does more than keep customers informed. It also keeps the person doing the project on task. If you have to release information about what you're doing every week, you're going to have incentive to have information to release. And it'll also give you incentive not to shove it to the back of your workbench because you have all these people paying attention and providing positive feedback to what you're doing. So the end result is happier informed customers and a more timely project with the bonus of momentum that inspires other people to work to make things to coincide with the project. All that said, from all accounts, Curt has some very serious health issues. And as someone who has family members with such, I Know how hard it is to get things done when you're not well. And it IS a hobby afterall. That should be kept in mind. Still, real money exchanged hands and it's been 5 years. And you make a valid point about expectations. AtariAge members have been pretty forgiving overall if you ask me, occasional griping aside. I still look forward to seeing and using it when it's done. Edited March 17, 2016 by Lendorien 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 (edited) I agree on Tep. He's awesome for being willing to jump in and pick up the pieces of the Bios like he has. It can't be easy, especially since it sounds like he has to reinvent the wheel. He's a Rockstar in my book! As far as the time, as I have said, it could have been avoided. I think that communication does more than keep customers informed. It also keeps the person doing the project on task. If you have to release information about what you're doing every week, you're going to have incentive to have information to release. And it'll also give you incentive not to shove it to the back of your workbench because you have all these people paying attention and providing positive feedback to what you're doing. So the end result is happier informed customers and a more timely project with the bonus of momentum that inspires other people to work to make things to coincide with the project. All that said, from all accounts, Curt has some very serious health issues. And as someone who has family members with such, I Know how hard it is to get things done when you're not well. And it IS a hobby afterall. That should be kept in mind. Still, real money exchanged hands and it's been 5 years. And you make a valid point about expectations. AtariAge members have been pretty forgiving overall if you ask me, occasional griping aside. I still look forward to seeing and using it when it's done. That's why I never really pursued a refund... I knew once the XM is released, I'd kick myself for not waiting on it. I'm a very patient person; sometimes too patient, but I've never known Atariage not to deliver. Kind of reminds me of "BattleShpere" for the Atari Jaguar, the time it's taking for it to be finished... I'm still waiting. Edited March 17, 2016 by philipj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tep392 Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Update: This is brief but I thought you might be interested in knowing the the s/w team is now two strong. Schmutzpuppe (Matthias) has offered to help me with parts of the code. I'm also getting some support from RevEng. This should help get some momentum going on this project. 27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Awesome news!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimerians Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Yes....definitely some good news 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Although I don't have a 7800 (yet), this XM project did appeal to my inventive spirit. It also seemed to be trying to bring all the pieces together that were missing from the 7800 as produced by Atari. Certainly the biggest mistake Atari made in my opinion, was to not have the POKEY sound internal to the machine, and the XM was not only going to address that, but also leverage some of the other things that POKEY would naturally bring (SIO and Keyboard). And of course Curt and team didn't stop at just adding POKEY. As a lot of these upgrade projects go, other things got thrown into the mix (internal High Score Card, Yamaha sound chip,...). All of this was good, and brought more value and interest to the product when it was announced. Problem is, it also complicated things as well from a development process, and unfortunately this can often times cause the timelines to slip. And as what was pointed out, Curt is not a well man, and his illness was not something that was ever planned for, and it definitely has to be taken into consideration. With that said, I have a suggestion based on a similar experience I had with Mike Hohman of FTE fame and his MARS 8 project. As many of you know back in the early 90's Mike Hohman (owner of Fine Tooned Engineering) was attempting to create a similar expansion board for the Atari 8-bit computers called the MARS 8. he also took money in advance (pre-orders) to help fund the R&D effort on this project. And as many of you are also well aware, he too kept slipping on the timeline. I was one of those pre-orders. After nearly 1-1/2 years had passed, I realized that the MARS 8 was probably never going to see the light of day. Too many personal and financial problems had occurred in Mike's life, and the plain truth was he had already used up all of the pre-order money and was still not in a position to release the MARS 8. So I thought of a compromise and suggested it to Mike. I knew Mike had other things of interest that were ready to go out the door (or could be made so with little effort). So I leveraged this and suggested that instead of owing me a MARS 8, that instead he could send me a SpartaDos X, R-Time 8, and an Action! carts, and we would call it even. He quickly agreed, and 2 days later they arrived on my door step, and he had also thrown in a Basic XE cart as well. So bottom line is I got pretty much the equivalent to a lot of what the MARS 8 would have delivered, Mike was let off the hook, and we remained friendly with each other. So with this story in mind. And for those that have grown beyond tired of waiting for their XM to arrive, I would suggest that a compromise be considered. Curt has a lot of Atari equity that could be tapped into, and I'm sure that anyone that had an interest in getting an XM or an Atari for that matter, could probably find something of interest in Curt's collection. Now I can't speak for Curt, nor would I try to, so he may or may not be open to such a deal. I just suggest it since this worked for me in the past, and kept things cordial between Mike Hohman and I, and likely gave him some relief as well (despite what some people think, Mike was never out to rob anyone, life just threw him too many curve balls). So if this sounds good to anyone that is disgruntled about the wait for their XM, you might want to start a dialog with Curt to see what is possible. So sorry to be entirely off topic with this post, but with what others were saying it just seemed to be appropriate . - Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Well Mytek the latest update gives good hope that it will be completed so I can not see any reason to go down that road of doom, gloom and compromise. Great story tho. at least it worked out for you. I am not interested in ransacing Curt's home. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Allan Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Is there any more details of what the Mars 8 was going to be? Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 (edited) Well Mytek the latest update gives good hope that it will be completed so I can not see any reason to go down that road of doom, gloom and compromise. Great story tho. at least it worked out for you. I am not interested in ransacing Curt's home. Yep I understand. And yes it does appear that progress might indeed be picking up momentum . I just brought it up because it hit home with what had happened to me, which ended up with a silver lining. Also it perhaps gives both sides in this (customer & manufacturer) a new way to resolve any conflict in a peaceful agreeable way, that maybe no one had ever thought of before. Please don't ransack Curt's home . Is there any more details of what the Mars 8 was going to be? Allan It was an internal upgrade board that would come with 1 Meg of RAM (expandable up to 4 Megs), and have SDX, R-Time8, Basic XL, Basic XE, and Action! all built in. I think there was more, but this is all I recall. Knowing Mike, it probably was also going to have some sort of removable storage, but I can't confirm this. For the mid 90's this would have been quite an upgrade. Now days not so much, because of all the other possibilities that are now available. Mike was quite the dreamer, and unfortunately that too was his downfall (he couldn't stop adding things to the spec). - Michael EDIT: Just found this Press Release: MARS8.TXT Edited March 18, 2016 by mytekcontrols 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+swlovinist Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Great news to hear that there is additional support. Thank you for the update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBomber Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Some people have been jackasses about the thing from the moment it was announced and wouldn't let it go.I bought into this project at the beginning and I still hope it gets released, but the doubters were proven right years ago. That's nothing against the new people on board, though. It's great that they're willing to jump in on this thing and I think they're going to get it done. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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